Ethics of Squirrel Hunting

[zukiphile]

Originally Posted by BP

That's a direct insult to several members in this thread ...

The miracle is that this is a thread in which people discuss eating rodents and there hasn't been a single Jeff Foxworthy style joke. "If you salivate every time you see a squirrel..."

[Boogershooter]

Thanks Garand, if you think about the definition of seriel killer I would say that must hunters fit that description in atleast one way. We target our pray by stalking it and classifying it. We usually repeat our favorite method of hunting. Down here in the south we usually start with small critters at a young age and as we grow and mature step up to bigger animals. Some of us are hardcore hunters and the urge for bigger better specimens is always burning inside us. I did not take any offense to your posts and I thought it was rather funny. I must say that from what I've seen on TV, the sk's that start out that way usually do it on the family pet. Even the best hunter in the world doesn't harm the family pet and I have quite a few pets just for aiding in my hunting. Squirrel dogs, hog dogs, deer dogs, and blood trailing dogs.

I allow my kids to name every litter of Pigs we get but they all know what is going to happen to them. They don't participate in the dispatch of the pigs but they sure love eating them.

[Erno86]

Among professional chefs...squirrels are considered a delicacy --- I consider them a delicacy also, and would be extremely upset, if I knew another hunter was in the woods with me, who would just shoot squirrels {grays or mountain fox} for sport and leave them lay.

[Pahoo]

The miracle is that this is a thread in which people discuss eating rodents

The miracle is that this thread has lasted so long. Almost as long as the one about eating Coyotes. ........

When the leaves start to fall and I see a squirrel, in the woods, I don't see a rodent, just some tasty protein. I've eaten a lot of strange things and it's still protein .......

Bon Apatite and;
Be Safe !!!

[GarandTd]

Thank you boogershooter for not letting your feathers get too ruffled by my sk post. And, for the excellent points you made. Some of which I considered myself after I posted.

Brian, I'm not going to apologize or retract my statement. Who did I insult, poachers? Serial killers? In the same post, I spoke of myself and my offspring killing animals. My panties are not bunched. An ethical hunter shouldn't take offense to what doesn't apply to him or her.

Shooting animals in the woods and leaving them to rot is unethical.

[buck460XVR]

Shooting animals in the woods and leaving them to rot is unethical.

Maybe yes....and maybe no. As has been said, many folks shoot 'yotes and leave them lay. Same goes for Pine squirrels, Porkies possums and other "pest and nuisance animals". I remember as a kid going to the dump and shooting rats. Never once thought about takin' them home.

The thing is, ethics and what is or is not ethical is highly subjective. What may be considered "unethical" to me may be the norm for you. For example, hunting deer with the use of dogs......or bait. Something that is not only taboo ethics around here, but also illegal. To me, that is where the line is drawn in the sand. If it's legal, then the ethics used is not an issue. Animal rights folks think that leg hold traps and drowning sets are unethical....but they are the basic tools for many trappers and legal in most areas. Houndsman around here many times "shake" a coon outta the tree or let the dogs "run down" a 'yote and chew 'em to pieces in a frenzy. To the houndsmen, it's perfectly ethical and a great training aid, even tho it's cruel, inhumane and basically illegal. Powers that be determine what's legal and what's not. We as individuals decide for ourselves what's ethical. I tend to avoid hunting with folks who's ethics don't mirror mine. I hold myself to the level that makes me comfortable and is the image I have as a safe and responsible hunter. While I may not agree with the ethics of others, if it's legal I won't take issue. The minute they break the law....I have a problem. That's how I see the "shoot squirrels and let them lay" question. If it's only a question of ethics, you as a hunter have to decide for yourself if that's the type of hunter you want to be. If it's illegal and you do it....you are a poacher, plain and simple.

[GarandTd]

Well spoken, Buck. And I agree on most, if not all of your points. It is the OP's associate's practices that are against my personal code of ethics. I'm not critical of pest control and am by no means an animal rights activist. In PA, in the woods, squirrels are a game animal regulated with limits and seasons. I'm sure a PA game officer would take issue with the wanton and wasteful practice of using woodland squirrels as target practice and Forrest floor fodder.

[briandg]

Shooting game animals and leaving them violates hunting codes here, just like poaching. Eat what you kill if it's game.

Varmints are varmints. They are legal to shoot because they need to die, not so you can put them in a blackbird pie. Crow, startling, chucks, eat what you can, let the buzzards clean up.

I killed varmint squirrels for decades, tossing them out for the cats. I hate squirrel.

If there is a way to put game to use, it is literally a crime to leave it where it drops. In some states, that is. There are food banks that are always looking for meat, find someone who Wil process your game and give it to them!

As for predators, it's shameful to kill a Fox or tote and not even try to harvest the pelt if it's in good condition if possible. Rip it off, salt it down, and give it to the trapper who lives in the shack outside of town.

A guy traded a vintage jaguar in on that abominable cash for clunkers program.. he got death threats.

[ZeroJunk]

If ethics is just a matter of personal opinion we are in trouble.

[briandg]

many cllasses in philosophy, ethics, and assorted other stuff, and every one of those disciplines eventually boil down to a couple things.

Yes, there is a right and a wrong.
No, there are no gray areas, there are only complicated situations that are sometimes not entirely clear.
Wanting something to be right isn't good enough.
No matter how many people do it, if it ain't right, it ain't right.

One of my personal benchmarks is whether or not it's good enough for everybody. What would happen if every hunter poached, peed in the creeks, tossed garbage along the trail?

[Boogershooter]

Boy or boy if peeing in the creek is wrong I should have been in handcuffs all my life. We pee on the down current side and drink on the up stream side. Plenty of sand and gravel to filter the water between crossings. If we kill a deer early we often gut it and throw it in the creek(tied off of course) and keep hunting. We are allowed a doe and a buck in the same day. Cooling meat off quickly always results in better tasting meat. I'm aware not all states allow this but it's legal here in louisiana. I'm sure the cows, coons, possums, hogs, deer, and other critters get the urge when they hear running water just like we do.

[979Texas]

Hahahaha, @Boogershooter. Same over here in Texas brother. If takin a leak in the rivers and creeks was a crime me and most of these other boys around here would be on a most wanted list. And yes all but very few of the animals we have cleaned and processed, their guts and remains all went into the Navasota River, sloughs, swamps, and creeks around here. Even some of the few hogs that we shot that we didn't clean out because of visible wounds, infections, or abscesses, got thrown whole into the river so the carcass wouldn't attract coyotes into the same area as our livestock. It ain't illegal over here in Texas either to my knowledge. Its just one of those things thats part of a way of normal rural life around here.
And to keep this post pertaining to topic we ethically disposed of squirrel guts in the river too.

[Pahoo]

One of my personal benchmarks is whether or not it's good enough for everybody. What would happen if every hunter poached, peed in the creeks, tossed garbage along the trail?

All hunters as well as non-hunters, have their own personal Code-Of-Ethics. We teach this during our Hunter Ed. Class and you might be amazed at some of the looks that go around the room. We set up different scenarios and leaving game in the field, is one of them. Often times, a young student will slowly turn and look at a parent and the parent will just keep looking straight ahead. ......

As far as peeing in the creek, we have never discussed this one but will be sure to include it in our next class. Most times, there is always a better place. ....

Be Safe !!!

[briandg]

I knew that would drag out people who think I'm nuts.

Yes, dumping biohazard material in the water is wrong, there's no disputing it, and why in God's name do you walk over to water to pee in it? Because you want to do it, because everyone else does it, because it's Texas tradition to do it?

Don't.

You through dead, infected hogs into the river? Does it hurt anything? Ever heard of disease? You ever smelled a hog or deer rotting in water?

You know darned well that it's illegal to litter in the water. Yes, pissing in the water is illegal in Texas dumping a hog in the water is illegal

look it up.

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=26122793

So it's part of rural life, and you want to do it because it keeps coyotes away? Are you kidding? If they can find it, they're already there.

Ever seen the Ganges?



See the guy in the pic? They stuck him on a board and stuck him in the water. What if everyone in Texas threw hogs into the water? You turn Texas into the Ganges.

You blew a lot of benchmark ethical tests out of the water, and then called it ethical?

But, no matter what, you won't care, you won't stop, you're going to try to make me look ridiculous, probably, so you can go on thinking it's okay because I'm a nut. People who live for the outdoors shouldn't crap where they eat.

[briandg]

Pahoo, in mo there's a large fine for dumping game or parts gut piles have to be buried, due to chronic wasting disease, you aren't allowed to leave the head, leaving the carcass and taking the rack, etc. I'm not surprised that you get a lot of funny looks. Leave a squirrel in the woods and there's a remote possibility that it will transmit spongiform brain disease. Guy in KE got "mad cow" eating squirrel brains.

no game left in field. It's law in Missouri and many, many other states, but as you said, and has been shown, people set their own personal ethics.

Sure, I left squirrels for the feral cats, they ate them, they left cardinals alone. I don't call that a "Gray area," it's probably illegal, but it's legal to feed wildlife, so maybe I'm not actually violating a law by tossing them in the lot where dozens of feral cats live.

Thanks for teaching hunter ethics.

[GarandTd]

Dead animals and parts tossed in the waterways is kind of disturbing. Varmints near livestock < natural water sources tainted with bacteria laden rotting flesh.

Do you throw your table scraps and garbage in the well to keep coons away?

[briandg]

That was something done in the past. Throw a dead animal into the well, cistern, tank or pond to foul it. A horrific act of vandalism.

Just hauling a big, rotting carcass to a spot and dumping it by the homestead is bad, the person who owned the land would have to cut the thing up and. drag it far away. Some guy near here who obviously owned a turkey farm dumped a truckload of dead ones at a peta-sits home while they were away, and wasn't caught. Can't imagine what a big pile of rotting turkey entrails rotting in the sun would be like, it's gonna linger.

[Boogershooter]

I sure hope I didn't cause any confusion when I said we will throw a deer in the creek after gutting it. We tie it off and put it in the creek to cool the meat fast and keep it cool while we continue to hunt. We usually leave the guts on the ground for other critters. If I happen to have hogs close by they get first dibbs. Fish heads and guts usually do get thrown in the water for coons, snakes, and turtles to eat. Can't discriminate lol

[briandg]

No, I didn't misunderstand you. Washin/soaking a deer isn't the same as throwing in a carcass to leave.

Unless leaving the gut pile is illegal, sure, scavengers have to eat too, and a gut pile out where it won't taint the water or land that people use isn't a problem, as far as I can figure it out, it only matters if it interferes with the natural order, dumping a gut pile next to a trail isn't right. Once I was on a major walking/bike trail, and smelled death. Someone wad shot a deer, taken the head, and left the carcass 100 feet or so off of that paved road.

A few fish scraps in the water, are as said, chum.. crawdads, turtles, other things need food to, and even if half the fish caught in a lake are gutted and tossed, it's still maybe better than taking them out. Coons love fisheads on the banks.

It's not a Gray area, just complicated, and as far as I know, y o ure not doing anything that harms anyone.

Up here in mo,at roaring river state park, we had fish cleaning stations. Water from the s p ring was fed into a big steel trough, cutting boards lined the sides, and the offal went into drums. The dirty water went into the river, and there was always a huge mob of fish and crawdads picking up the niblets. The offal, seriously, was dumped at dump sites throughout the forest. They shut them down a long time ago, now the water goes into a septic tank and everything is "sanitary."

At this time, things are crazy. Feral cats are not only wildlife, but "community pets" we have sterilization and release programs, because they are now considered to be part of the ecosystem. They eat the dead squirrels off of the roads.

[979Texas]

Sorry for causing an uproar. I understand and respect all points of view. It's just something we've always done and I've never questioned it. I'm not disputing anyone's opinion on this. I'm just stating what I know. And between the otters, turtles, alligator gar, catfish, alligators and otters their are very rarely any remains left after 2 days. But thanks for the points of view like I said it's just what I've been shown to do all my life and have never questioned it. And I am aware of hogs contaminating water holes, that is one of the reasons why we kill them. So I apologise for not thinking the matter through before I posted it. We've just never had any problems doing it before and when the local game wardens would come around and check on the deer camp they would sometimes ask us what we did with the remains and we told them and never thought twice because as long as you weren't dumping them on the side of the road the wardens in the area didn't really care. I'm not saying they were in the right but that's just the way it happened. Also like I said the animals in the river always made real short order of the remains and they have very strong immune systems such as the alligator that has an immune system so strong that it is resistant to the HIV/AIDS virus. But I'm not goin to argue with anyone because yall all raise good points that I will think about next time I dispose of a carcass.

[briandg]

Buzzards are the same way, you can feed a buzzards botulinum poison and it shakes it off. Waterways here are small, they are really easily damaged. A refrigeration plant lost ammonia, and we had a fish kill a a few miles away, it worked its way over through drainage canals. That creek is maybe fifty feet wide at most places. I can't remember how many cities feed off of the water, maybe a half doze, I think that it winds up in a lake, then the red river.

A couple interesting things. They prosecuted someone that was caught running an a tv through the water. A guy was prosecuted when he cut fences to water cattle from one. Glass on the water is a rather large fin, only aluminum or plastic allowed. We had an epic century flood a few years ago, and like I said, the thing is so small that it crested in places at over twenty feet. The destruction was stunning.

Downstream, in Kansas, it runs through a park. Swimming, fishing, kids in the water. We hike there,and again, once I smelled dead stuff. Took a look over a ten foot bank, dead deer hanging off of a snag, rotting. Probably fell over the edge and died. There it was, hanging in the water, directly upstream from kids on that same bank. PUKEADOODLES!

Once we were hiking along an area that turtles gather. God almighty, we saw a cluster of four giant snappers, each one about two feet wide, just hanging in the water like balloons. Yep, they'd clean up a hog, but those may have been the only ones that size in fifty miles.

I
Even "roaring" river, a spring fed one that is a major state park is so small that it barely qualifies as a river. The park was built by wpa, and it's a charming little thing in the Ozarks.

It must be really something to see a Texas sized river, I lived in Memphis, but all I ever saw was from the bridges.

[gunfighter48]

From 1960 to 1967 we lived in a small town in NE Washington State. My dad worked in a sawmill and in the woods logging. It didn't pay much but was the only work to be had. In a good year you could work from April to about Oct - Nov. Then the weather got bad and you didn't work the rest of the year. Up to 4 ft. of snow and down to 40° below zero!

My dad would hunt deer and I would hunt grouse and squirrels. Squirrels were good to eat until the snow got to about 1.5 ft. Then they started eating pine and fir needles because they couldn't find their stashes of nuts, berries, etc. They tasted like turpentine when they eat the needles.

I put a lot of meat on the table with squirrels and grouse. Sometimes it was the only meat we had. We ate what we shot for the most part. We shot porcupines but didn't eat them. They would eat the bark in a circle around a tree and the trees would die. They destroyed 10,000s of trees in our county. We were happy to get rid of them and there was always an abundant supply of them.

My grandfather used to hunt ground hogs, porcupines, possums, raccoons, and skunks for food. Cooked correctly they were good tasting meat. I helped dress out everything but skunks. I drew the line at that!!!!!! People don't realize how many animals are edible in the wilds. We've gotten away from our knowledge of where our food comes from and what's good to eat.

Our local game warden would have taken a very dark view of anyone shooting good to eat animals and leaving them to rot!!!!!!!!

[HiBC]

What is done is done,but PLEASE,do not treat rivers and lakes as a dump.

Or as a sewage stream.

Please,just don't.And try to educate those you might be with before they do.Thanks.

And to those who cool carcasses in the creek,....Doit your way,I'm not telling you how to live.

You might consider: If your animal does not have ugly pus pockets from infection,the flesh itself is pretty much sterile before it is inoculated with bacteria,perhaps from gut contents,hair,etc.

Outside sources of bacteria are best avoided.

If the meat is over 40 deg f,bacteria will grow.So,spoilage is not really stopped if the water is over 40 deg.

The fascia membrane over the muscles is a barrier to contamination,and once it dries to a skin itself,its too dry for bacteria to flourish.

When you put the deer in the 63 deg water of the creek,you are soaking it in all manner of bacterial contamination..(Including the piss and dead guts from upsteam friends)

The fascia around the meat absorbs a lot of creek water via osmosis,so the membrane is a wet bed of bacterial growth.

Gut it,hang it,skin it,let it get air and dry off.Then get it refrigerated ASAP.

[Boogershooter]

Hibc, you sound like a pretty educated feller so thanks for the advice. I must say tho that I would never soak a carcass in the creek if the water was that warm. Our creeks down here are mostly spring fed and very very clean. Cleaner than our well water if we don't use it fast enough or treat it. The people fertilizing their pastures with chicken house litter is far worse than a deer hanging in a creek at between 32 and 40 degrees. I have drank from this creek along with the rest of the family all my life. Never once had giardia or any other water born illness. I'm sure I spelled that wrong but you get my point. Moving water running across Sandy soil filters it pretty good. Never drink after a big rain and always cook your meat before you eat it. It's worked for generations here and I really see no foul in it.

[briandg]

booger man, you are right about cooling game in a creek. No, it's not the most sanitary method, but dropping an opened carcass into a running cold stream of water is the quickest way to drop it from 98 degrees to a point where it's less likely to spoil. Winter deer season will have the water cooled to a point that it should help. Tossing a freshly killed deer into the water where it will shed a little blod and maybe some scraps of flesh from dressing it out isn't like tossing the gut pile in. scraps of meat will become chum for the bottom feeders.

HIB, I'm not disagreeing with either of you. The point to remember is that a dressed deer isn't a whole lot worse than any other normal creekside event. There are fish dying every second, they all poop where they eat, and trust me, I've seen my aquarium fish dive head first onto the "worm" that the one at the top of the tank just shook off.

but, I must agree that leaving it in the water for much longer than it takes to cool down isn't a great idea. It's going to allow the steaks to lose flavor, and yes, it will draw in water. It's going to be best, if the carcass is flashcooled in a cold creek to hang if after an hour or so. and as I've said, dumping something into the water that doesn't exist there naturally, well, it shouldn't be done.

Booger man, you are entirely right about chicken ranchers. A good rain storm on fields fertilized with manure isn't good for surrounding water. There is a huge poultry business around here, with turkey farms every few miles. The smell of bird fertilizer around some of the soybean and wheat farms gets rank. It's pretty intimidating to see a 5,000 bird operation along a flood plain. The conservation dept here is working really hard to control these things. Doing a pretty good job.

What I find to be really gross is the dozens of processing plants in the area. Millions of birds, chicken, turkey, even game hens go through the plants. There are MILLIONS of tons of entrails every year, yanked out and tossed into tanks. I don't really know what happens to that.

Would you guys believe that there is an actual federal job code for turkey castrater, and for head popper?

Some bunch of yabbos tried to bring a million animal cattle feeding operation here. Yep, they would bring in the cows, feed them, and then send them to the slaughter house. "we're going to create thousands of jobs!"

What the actual facts were is that they were going to truck in megatons of cheap cattle food, and create megatons of cattle waste. There would be hundreds of dead, diseased carcasses every year. They were planning to draw about half a million gallons of water from the public aquifer every year.. the same shallow aquiver that every well in the surrounding region lives from.

The impact from this thing would have been like dropping a nuke. dozens of state agencies and the public got in line and shut it down. The only reason they chose this place was because it had easy access to water, lots of flat land to create waste lagoons in, access to major highways to save transportation costs, and nobody but a bunch of yahoos from BFE to oppose it, and "them stupid hillbilles will jump at the chance for job creation."