Black Powder in War - Page 3

Jim Watson · April 23, 2014, 07:11 PM

I have seen references to "washing their guns" during a lull in the action.
I don't think anybody meant to wet clean his musket with whatever aqueous fluid while under fire.

jimbob86 · April 23, 2014, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Not only that but methinks it would be difficult to pee down a barrel while lying down under fire.

From what I understand, in the early parts of the war, lying down was considerered cowardly .... even after Antietam, the guys calling the shots still believed that "fighting spirit" was what won battles ...... it was how they were educated: every military organization is steeped in tradition, and those with the power to make changes are not those who are asked to "stand and deliver" - using tactics totally inappropriate to the weaponry of the time. These guys had seen their favorite tactics work fine for them against Mexico (Never mind that the Mexicans in 1848 were armed with smoothbore muskets not much different than those the Red coats toted in 1812 ....) ..... they had stood firm under fire, why couldn't their troops do so now?

**Mike Irwin** · April 25, 2014, 08:33 AM

"From what I understand, in the early parts of the war, lying down was considerered cowardly"

Sounds reminiscent of the attitude of the British general orders issued to, IIRC, the First Battle of the Somme.

Order came out that any man doing anything other than standing tall and walking straight ahead towards the German trenches would be court martialed.

jimbob86 · April 25, 2014, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Order came out that any man doing anything other than standing tall and walking straight ahead towards the German trenches would be court martialed.

Organizational inertia at it's ghoulish worst.

Hawg · April 25, 2014, 07:09 PM

Quote:

"From what I understand, in the early parts of the war, lying down was considerered cowardly"

That changed pretty quick for the most part.

jimbob86 · April 25, 2014, 07:39 PM

Quote:

That changed pretty quick for the most part.

The aformentioned Institutional Inertia, Short enlistments, the Butchers Bill, diseases, all worked against changes ..... "Experienced Combat Veteran with enough pull to change things" was a rare bird.

bedbugbilly · April 26, 2014, 06:31 PM

And let's not forget the "Williams Cleaning Bullet" - the stubby mini with the zinc disc designed to scrape fouling out when fired. Each "Arsenal Pack" of 10 cartridges included three cartridges with the Williams bullet as well as 13 percussion caps rolled in paper. The Williams cartridges were a different colored paper. Many of the soldiers believed these "cleaning bullets" made the rifled musket kick harder so they were "accidentally dropped" or discarded.

johnwilliamson062 · April 26, 2014, 08:09 PM

Cleaning round mentioned in post 7 and later posts.

Hawg · April 27, 2014, 12:38 AM

Quote:

And let's not forget the "Williams Cleaning Bullet" - the stubby mini with the zinc disc designed to scrape fouling out when fired. Each "Arsenal Pack" of 10 cartridges included three cartridges with the Williams bullet as well as 13 percussion caps rolled in paper. The Williams cartridges were a different colored paper. Many of the soldiers believed these "cleaning bullets" made the rifled musket kick harder so they were "accidentally dropped" or discarded.

In the beginning they were one in ten, then three in ten and towards the end they were six in ten with eleven caps. There was no standardization for color of the cartridge paper for cleaner bullets. Colors ranged from red to blue to green to off white to tan like the standard cartridges. Indeed many if not most were tan and pretty much indistinguishable from standard cartridges.

thallub · April 27, 2014, 09:59 AM

Found this statement by Confederate soldier Jim Hall in 31st VA Infantry by John M. Ashcraft, Jr., page 86:

"I fired over fifty rounds during the engagement and my shoulder is very sore from the rebounding of the gun."

Jim Watson · April 27, 2014, 10:15 AM

And a friend has the journal of a "gentleman ranker" during the Napoleonic Wars when British issue was the .75 Brown Bess.
"Fired 70 rounds ball today. My shoulder is black."

Hawg · April 27, 2014, 10:28 AM

People back then were a lot smaller in stature.

Jim Watson · April 27, 2014, 11:22 AM

The most recoil tolerant shooter I knew was a little shrimp of a guy, by modern standards, maybe 5'7' at most and wiry in build. Probably normal or taller in the 18th century.

B.L.E. · April 27, 2014, 12:59 PM

I believe people of small stature tend to give with the recoil instead of fighting it and thus are less hurt by it.

Hawg · April 27, 2014, 01:55 PM

I've never been recoil sensitive so I really don't understand it. I was shooting 12 gauges and 30-06's both with steel or hard rubber butt plates when I was 11 and I was small for my age. To me a steel butted 30-06 or a .58 Enfield with 70 grains of powder and a 510 grain minie don't have enough kick to bother mentioning. I see guys come on here complaining about a .308 or a 30-30 and all I can say is WTH?

johnwilliamson062 · April 27, 2014, 03:20 PM

Well, how you handle recoil has a lot to do with proper stance and hold of the rifle along with fit.

**4V50 Gary** · April 27, 2014, 03:27 PM

Agree with Johnwilliam. Hold it loosely and the butt will slam into your shoulder. Hold it tightly and it pushes you back. I can shoot 65-70 grains all day without injury. I don't want to try that with 120 grains.

Hawg · April 27, 2014, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Well, how you handle recoil has a lot to do with proper stance and hold of the rifle along with fit

Proper stance....Me? Now that's funny right there. I don't do anything by the book.

B.L.E. · April 27, 2014, 05:37 PM

I dunno, but my muzzleloading shotgun seem to kick a lot more when I'm aiming at the patterning board and squeezing off a shot than it does when I'm shooting at a flying clay bird.

Hawg · April 27, 2014, 06:34 PM

B.L.E., get some .69 caliber round balls and tight patch them on top of 100 grains of powder. They make some awsum holes in stuff.

SIGSHR · April 27, 2014, 06:39 PM

I also wonder about urinating down the barrel. Between sweating in those wool uniforms and the 1 quart canteens of the period, any water a solider ingested would probably come out his pores first.

B.L.E. · April 27, 2014, 09:45 PM

Quote:

B.L.E., get some .69 caliber round balls and tight patch them on top of 100 grains of powder. They make some awsum holes in stuff.

Better yet, how 'bout tightly patched .90 roundballs behind about 200 grains of cannon powder loaded into this six gauge.

If that don't kick hard enough for you, there's always the 4 gauge.

Hawg · April 28, 2014, 04:19 AM

I'd try it.

jimbob86 · April 30, 2014, 12:34 AM

Quote:

People back then were a lot smaller in stature.

Most people back then were a lot smaller in stature.

FIFY.

George Washington was 6'2 1/2" .....Jefferson was, too.

Abe Lincoln was 6'4" .....

Americans in the mid-19th century were, on average taller and stronger than their European counterparts- they were better fed.

Hawg · April 30, 2014, 04:27 AM

Quote:

Abe Lincoln was 6'4" .....

But he only weighed 180 pounds.

April 25, 2014, 08:33 AM	#53
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,381	"From what I understand, in the early parts of the war, lying down was considerered cowardly" Sounds reminiscent of the attitude of the British general orders issued to, IIRC, the First Battle of the Somme. Order came out that any man doing anything other than standing tall and walking straight ahead towards the German trenches would be court martialed. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

April 26, 2014, 06:31 PM	#57
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,287	And let's not forget the "Williams Cleaning Bullet" - the stubby mini with the zinc disc designed to scrape fouling out when fired. Each "Arsenal Pack" of 10 cartridges included three cartridges with the Williams bullet as well as 13 percussion caps rolled in paper. The Williams cartridges were a different colored paper. Many of the soldiers believed these "cleaning bullets" made the rifled musket kick harder so they were "accidentally dropped" or discarded. __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

April 27, 2014, 12:59 PM	#64
B.L.E. Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX Posts: 2,603	I believe people of small stature tend to give with the recoil instead of fighting it and thus are less hurt by it. __________________ Hanlon's Razor "Do not invoke conspiracy as explanation when ignorance and incompetence will suffice, as conspiracy implies intelligence and organization."

April 27, 2014, 03:27 PM	#67
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,832	Agree with Johnwilliam. Hold it loosely and the butt will slam into your shoulder. Hold it tightly and it pushes you back. I can shoot 65-70 grains all day without injury. I don't want to try that with 120 grains. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

April 27, 2014, 05:37 PM	#69
B.L.E. Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX Posts: 2,603	I dunno, but my muzzleloading shotgun seem to kick a lot more when I'm aiming at the patterning board and squeezing off a shot than it does when I'm shooting at a flying clay bird. __________________ Hanlon's Razor "Do not invoke conspiracy as explanation when ignorance and incompetence will suffice, as conspiracy implies intelligence and organization."

April 23, 2014, 07:11 PM	#51
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,539	I have seen references to "washing their guns" during a lull in the action. I don't think anybody meant to wet clean his musket with whatever aqueous fluid while under fire.

April 26, 2014, 08:09 PM	#58
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	Cleaning round mentioned in post 7 and later posts.

April 27, 2014, 09:59 AM	#60
thallub Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2007 Location: South Western OK Posts: 3,112	Found this statement by Confederate soldier Jim Hall in 31st VA Infantry by John M. Ashcraft, Jr., page 86: "I fired over fifty rounds during the engagement and my shoulder is very sore from the rebounding of the gun."

April 27, 2014, 10:15 AM	#61
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,539	And a friend has the journal of a "gentleman ranker" during the Napoleonic Wars when British issue was the .75 Brown Bess. "Fired 70 rounds ball today. My shoulder is black."

April 27, 2014, 10:28 AM	#62
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	People back then were a lot smaller in stature.

April 27, 2014, 11:22 AM	#63
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,539	The most recoil tolerant shooter I knew was a little shrimp of a guy, by modern standards, maybe 5'7' at most and wiry in build. Probably normal or taller in the 18th century.

April 27, 2014, 01:55 PM	#65
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	I've never been recoil sensitive so I really don't understand it. I was shooting 12 gauges and 30-06's both with steel or hard rubber butt plates when I was 11 and I was small for my age. To me a steel butted 30-06 or a .58 Enfield with 70 grains of powder and a 510 grain minie don't have enough kick to bother mentioning. I see guys come on here complaining about a .308 or a 30-30 and all I can say is WTH?

April 27, 2014, 03:20 PM	#66
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	Well, how you handle recoil has a lot to do with proper stance and hold of the rifle along with fit.

April 27, 2014, 06:34 PM	#70
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	B.L.E., get some .69 caliber round balls and tight patch them on top of 100 grains of powder. They make some awsum holes in stuff.

April 27, 2014, 06:39 PM	#71
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	I also wonder about urinating down the barrel. Between sweating in those wool uniforms and the 1 quart canteens of the period, any water a solider ingested would probably come out his pores first.

April 28, 2014, 04:19 AM	#73
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	I'd try it.