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Old November 23, 2013, 09:28 AM   #126
Brian Pfleuger
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Originally Posted by lead counsel
Humans are hard wired to breath. Eat. Defecate. Sleep. Mate. Perhaps some other things. Killing isn't one of them. Most humans don't enjoy killing and actually are repelled by it. Most people would not want to watch something killed, nor would they want to do it themselves.

I'm in that crowd. I kill only when absolutely necessary and I take no pleasure in it. I eat everything on my plate that was killed because I realize the sacrifice that an animal made, even that last shrimp or bite of steak, because I know that something died to provide me with food.

"Most humans" have no such revulsion because, by far and away, "most humans" weren't raised by Walt Disney, trained to believe that animals are furry people with families and emotions. "Most humans" live in the real world, only the minuscule percentage in America and parts of other westernized nations think like Walt Disney.

The animals you eat didn't "make a sacrifice". A sacrifice would be an act of free will. It died because some human killed it, by the choice of the human.

You say humans are hard-wired "to eat". What, pray tell, do you suppose they are hard-wired to eat? It ain't lettuce and tomatoes. We eat meat. Meat comes from animals. Animals die by our hands to get that meat. We are hard-wired to kill our food.

By your logic, you should be thankful to the human who killed your food for you, since they are debasing themselves to complete a task FOR YOU that you won't complete for yourself, yet you'll happily partake of the results.

It's a lot like The Matrix, actually. Insulated from the real world and living happily in denial to what's really going on.
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Old November 23, 2013, 12:11 PM   #127
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leadcounsel, i have hunted in several other countries including africa and i,m going to do it again next year,if i remember right the guilds,camp workers and alot of others were all glad to have a job that paided way over the local going rate. all laws were obeyed and i never have seen as many animals,hundreds every day. with out hunting in that area of africa the animinals would be pouched out in quick order mostly with wire snares, not a good was to die. so if i see you in the bush taking pictures and a lion or other carrian eater decides to make you extinct, i may just let nature take its course. eastbank.

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Old November 23, 2013, 12:13 PM   #128
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The predatory instinct has not been bred out, not at all. That instinct is why we have politicians and CEOs of corporations--and dope dealers and gangbangers. It's from the same instinct as hunting, but in a different endeavor.

From a morality standpoint, I prefer hunters.
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Old November 23, 2013, 12:43 PM   #129
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The predatory instinct has not been bred out, not at all. That instinct is why we have politicians and CEOs of corporations--and dope dealers and gangbangers. It's from the same instinct as hunting, but in a different endeavor.
What you just described is greed, and their actions are fueled by greed, not a predatory instinct to kill. You cannot even compare the two. Go tell any psychiatrist that you have a human instinct to kill and are hard wired to do so and see what they tell you. You'll be locked up in the looney bin. As a whole the human race are not animals. The ones that are cannot function in a civilized society and usually end up in jail or the psych ward.
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Old November 23, 2013, 05:45 PM   #130
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Humans have clearly moved on from a purely animal psyche, contrary to what some have suggested. Although some of our tendencies can be traced back to the pack mentality of our evolutionary predecessors to say that we are somehow still governed by those instincts is inaccurate. Influenced at times, yes. Compelled at others, sure, but not wholly governed.

Our society would be completely unsustainable if we still succumbed to our instincts’ every whim…. Take the concept of monogamy: as far as I’m aware it is unheard of in mammalian species; certainly amongst our closest relatives. Were I still animal, I should be running around, fathering wherever possible and not hanging around to find out what my offspring all look like… Although this does happen, we tend to frown on it, rather than condone it. Not very mammalian at all…

As for CEOs and politicians, I expect that to be traced back to the mammalian need to acquire alpha male status. This has to do with the “s” word, not killing.

On the point of killing: Animals, as most will have noticed, do not have guns, hellfire missiles, or A-bombs.
When they kill, it is up close and personal. It is a risk as the other party, be they prey or rival, will have their own weapons to deploy. Therefore animals will not kill unless fulfilling a need, and that need outweighs the risks.
This need can be and usually is, in the case of predators, for food. This can also include killing to protect one’s territory. Killing can also be part of a bonding activity in some social animal groups as well as a means of honing life skills needed in adulthood.

Sometimes it arises because something happens that stimulates that behavioural pathway, such a thrashing swimmer will trigger the hunt reflex in a Great White. It is not that the Great White suddenly fancies killing a human. The human gave the wrong signals at the wrong time.

By contrast, killing is not, as some seem to suggest, some kind of funtime hobby.

It seems to me that killing for pure recreation is something that has evolved from Mankind, not been retained from primitive ancestors.
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Old November 23, 2013, 10:12 PM   #131
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Sorry, Dragline, but there is a fair body of literature which substantiates what I wrote. The instinct is of the hunt, and nowadays the equivalent of the kill is that of status via politics or money or other sources of power.

Alpha male and all that.
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Old November 23, 2013, 11:01 PM   #132
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Modern business and sports is based on the natural predatory instinct of homo sapiens.
One of the reasons we say, "he made a killing in the stock market" ,or, "hunting down new customers."

Some people simply satiate that inborn wiring more literally (and naturally?) than others.

Why do you think it is so easy to focus on actual hunting? Why is it relaxing? Why is it that we can get in "the zone" and think of nothing else while we are out in the wild?
Because it is what our brains and bodies are really designed for. It is primal.
No apologies needed.

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It seems to me that killing for pure recreation is something that has evolved from Mankind, not been retained from primitive ancestors.
Wolf packs, wild and tame felines have been shown to hunt and kill for sport
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Old November 23, 2013, 11:21 PM   #133
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Our society would be completely unsustainable if we still succumbed to our instincts’ every whim…. Take the concept of monogamy: as far as I’m aware it is unheard of in mammalian species; certainly amongst our closest relatives. Were I still animal, I should be running around, fathering wherever possible and not hanging around to find out what my offspring all look like… Although this does happen, we tend to frown on it, rather than condone it. Not very mammalian at all…
James Pond

You may want to research the above statement as you will find that there are many other mammals/animals(esp. birds) other then the Homo sapien species (aka, primates of the Hominidae family) that mate for life.

FWIW, some research also claims that there are a few species such as the marmoset and tamarin monkeys that practice monogamy way better then humans.

Last edited by shortwave; November 23, 2013 at 11:28 PM.
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Old November 23, 2013, 11:28 PM   #134
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Sorry, Dragline, but there is a fair body of literature which substantiates what I wrote. The instinct is of the hunt, and nowadays the equivalent of the kill is that of status via politics or money or other sources of power.

Alpha male and all that.
No disagreements with you there, in fact I whole heartedly agree with you. I took your comment the wrong way and was relating it to the previous comments of human beings being hard wired and having a human instinct that drives them to physically kill. But I still stand by what I said before, and I do not believe that human beings as a whole are still hard wired with the instinct to kill, that was the point I was trying to make.
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Old November 24, 2013, 02:16 AM   #135
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Wolf packs, wild and tame felines have been shown to hunt and kill for sport
Got a source for that?

You sure that it is "sport" and not pack bonding or skills practice in the safety of the group?

Calories are precious in nature. They are not typically wasted on activities that don't serve a higher purpose.

Quote:
Alpha male and all that.
Seems you are bundling hunt behaviour with alpha male acquisitiion behaviour. The alpha male status is not motivated with a desire to kill. It is the desire to mate. Alpha status gives th bearer rights to the females and first dibs on the main course. To maintain that right the bearer may need to kill rivals and enemies: part of the risks the privilege carries.
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Old November 24, 2013, 05:11 AM   #136
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Calories are precious in nature. They are not typically wasted on activities that don't serve a higher purpose.
I am not wasting calories on hunting it is for a greater purpose, it keeps me healthy (being outdoors, the healthy meat etc) and sane even zen
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Old November 24, 2013, 07:09 AM   #137
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i hunt,you don,t. i make no excues for it. stay home if you want,i prefer to hunt and fish . and i know the dollars i spent on them are going to save the species for future hunters and fishermen along with the hikers,photo takers, golly gee the hiker and photo groups had a guild with a rifle. the photo takers and hikers i have seen on my hunting trips don,t pump near the money into the locals that hunters do. the picture takers ride around in a land rover and take their pictures in complete safety. when you book a hunt the list of local people and local businesses that benifit from it are far greater than if you book a photo-hiking trip. don,t call me untill the middle of dec. as i will be hunting. eastbank.
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Old November 24, 2013, 09:18 AM   #138
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Dolphins. Most people consider them one of the most intelligent critters on the planet. They also kill for no reason.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor...wn_babies.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/ear...e-experts.html

http://animal.discovery.com/mammals/...avior-info.htm
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Old November 24, 2013, 09:44 AM   #139
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My cats are strictly indoor cats, are not allowed to roam the neighborhood, and are well fed. I do let them out on my deck which is elevated, so they will not jump off, as it is just too high up. Birds occasionally land on the deck and sometimes one of the cats will grab one, and kill it. I have seen them essentially use the dead bird, as a cat toy. They don't eat them, but I usually take the dead bird away from them pretty quickly.

I have friends with cats, and once in a great while one of their cats will catch a mouse, and when done playing with it will drop the mouse in their bed, when they're in it as a "present". Typically the mouse is decapitated. That usually doesn't end well.
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Old November 24, 2013, 09:53 AM   #140
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dolphins rape other dolphin species to
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Old November 24, 2013, 10:32 AM   #141
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You sure that it is "sport" and not pack bonding or skills practice in the safety of the group?

Calories are precious in nature. They are not typically wasted on activities that don't serve a higher purpose.
We could argue semantics all day. A father and son sport hunting together could be referred to as pack bonding.

There are well documented reports of ranchers in the western US finding cattle that have been killed by wolves and not consumed, in fact sometimes several cattle are found in the same location and none show signs of consumption by the wolves.
And anyone who has owned a cat will tell you stories of the pet killing mice or birds for "sport." Many will say, it's their natural instinct...well, we are just animals too.

I'm not condoning wanton killing, with the only explanation being that we are hard wired to do so. We are "higher mammals" afterall, and we have more refined brain functions to attempt to quell our primal minds.
but that primal mind must be fed by some pursuit. I recommend Desmond Morris' books "The Naked Ape" or "The Human Animal" to anyone interested on the subject or evolution on the modern human condition.
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Old November 24, 2013, 10:36 AM   #142
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Dragline, I might be more clear to say that the change in behavior is away from "kill" but still operating with the predatory instinct. You don't kill an enemy; you bankrupt him or beat him in the election primaries. Or maybe steal his girlfriend.

Grocery store food means we can hunt other types of targets, without physical weapons. But the hunting instinct remains with us as the top predator on the planet.

And some of us still see value in "the hunt" for wild animals. It's one of the few equal-opportunity activities, not limited to royalty or the rich.
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Old November 24, 2013, 01:37 PM   #143
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I just don't understand the outrage. Mrs Bachman didn't break any laws yet she's being vilified by the press and South Africa wants to ban her from the country? I have a feeling if she was an old grey haired Danish man there wouldn't be a problem, but an attractive American woman killing a lion is a big deal to these people. I guess I shouldn't be surprised considering South Africa isn't exactly known for equality.
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Old November 24, 2013, 02:04 PM   #144
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We could argue semantics all day. A father and son sport hunting together could be referred to as pack bonding.

There are well documented reports of ranchers in the western US finding cattle that have been killed by wolves and not consumed, in fact sometimes several cattle are found in the same location and none show signs of consumption by the wolves.
And anyone who has owned a cat will tell you stories of the pet killing mice or birds for "sport." Many will say, it's their natural instinct...well, we are just animals too.
But the semantics are important here.
Some members are alluding to the fact that trophy hunters are somehow displaying something that is innate through evolution. Members are then trying to support that by humanizing animal behaviours.

Hunters kill. That much is the same in nature. But Trophy Hunters do so to be able to say/show/know that they killed that particular animal. If it was for the food they would eat it. If it was for the sake of seeing it in the wild they could take a photo and go home. The culmination is the pull of that trigger and often, the photo-op over the corpse. The animal's death signals the success of the outing.
For regular hunters, despite elation at the time of the kill, the meal on the plate is the ultimate sign of the hunt's success because that was the hunt's original purpose. Some may hunt to protect their crops/cattle. If it did not threaten their crops/cattle, they would not hunt that animal. They are not killing for the sake of killing.

Aside from the motivations I listed earlier, the examples you gave could be attributed to a behavioural positive feedback loop after a particularly intense hunt in the case of the wolves (akin to feeding frenzies in sharks for example), or a cat using its hunting skills out of instinct because all its dietary needs come from a tin. The movement of the bird hopping or the mouse scurrying flips that switch. It is a hardwired reaction: it is not recreation in the human sense.

In the animal kindgom, there are certain major motivators. The instinct to survive, to feed and to procreate and all of them are there to serve to progression of genes to the next generation, in one way or another.

One thing that does set humans is that we can control evolutionary instincts in behaviour. That is why we have a system of ethical values.
For me, ethics are the crux of this issue. Differing ethical values about what different people perceive as acceptable and responsible.

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You don't kill an enemy; you bankrupt him or beat him in the election primaries. Or maybe steal his girlfriend.
That is not a predatory instinct. That is a "desire to mate" instinct.

Get the Alpha Male status and you get the girls. This has nothing to do with killing.
Male-on-Male bouts in the wild only last until one of the contenders backs down. That is rarely when one dies although it can come to that if both feel they are strongest. Often, some vocalisation and posturing is enough to show the under-dog he is no match for the "dude" opposite. It ends there, with no loss of blood/life.

The macho mentality is just that: the big car, the big wrist-watch, the showy behaviour, even the friday night bar brawl. There is a reason these are often the butt of the "compensation" joke. This has nothing to do with the acquisition of food, which is what predation is designed for.
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Old November 24, 2013, 03:23 PM   #145
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[QUOTE]Members are then trying to support that by humanizing animal behaviours. [QUOTE]

That's almost correct. Members are supporting that by animalizing human behavior. You have it backwards.
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Old November 24, 2013, 03:37 PM   #146
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There are well documented reports of ranchers in the western US finding cattle that have been killed by wolves and not consumed, in fact sometimes several cattle are found in the same location and none show signs of consumption by the wolves.
it is the prey drive that overrides everything else, if the wolf gets into a pen it will continue to kill until it is distureb

out in the wild the animals will flee/scatter in a pen that is impossible

Quote:
For regular hunters, despite elation at the time of the kill, the meal on the plate is the ultimate sign of the hunt's success because that was the hunt's original purpose.
there are other purposes to, keep populations down first and foremost. but management in general, most ecosystems nowadays needs human intervention
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Old November 24, 2013, 07:53 PM   #147
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But, Ruger480, we are animals. Omnivore mammals. Top of the food chain predators. The difference between homo sap and other animals is self-awareness and the brain power to make the tools which put us on top.
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Old November 24, 2013, 08:06 PM   #148
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If we get back to the original question of this thread, it's brutally simple.

The fact is that "trophy hunters" (and the income they bring) have done more to preserve habitat and animals in Africa than any animal rights organization. We can argue whether this is the best way to conserve the wildlife habitat, but it's the way that works best right now. There are places in the world where Elephants, Lions, Leopards, etc. must be culled to prevent overpopulation, why pay someone to do it and destroy the animal when you can get some rich westerner to pay large amounts of money to come remove the animals. Then use the meat to feed a village, use the money to manage the land and employ locals.
Sounds like a win-win to me


Yes, the kill invokes a "postive feedback loop" in humans also The fact that we are animals must be accepted. Sure, society imposes restrictions on the instinct, and in fact the control of such animal parts are necessary to civilization itself. But to deny that those instincts are there often does more harm than good.
I don't disagree with James Pond's evidence, I just come to different conclusions. In prehistoric times, the best hunter was often the most revered person in a community, which in turn gave him the pick of mates, materials, etc. I don't believe the two can be separated if we are talking about evolution of the hunting/mating instinct.

Ruger480 has it
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Old November 24, 2013, 08:35 PM   #149
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...we are animals. Omnivore mammals. Top of the food chain predators. The difference between homo sap and other animals is self-awareness and the brain power to make the tools which put us on top.
]
Without the self awareness and the brain power humans have to make our killing tools, we would be less adequate as a predator then many other more physically adapted predators and would not be at the top of the food chain. Far as the physical makeup of predators goes, humans aren't all that.

Tis why I always find it comical when someone is bashing hunters saying things such as "why don't you hunters show how manly you are and hunt animals with no weapons" or "if you hunters want to even the field with the poor animals why don't you hunt without guns/bows etc".

Why? Cause of the brain power I was blessed with that gives me the skill level and knowledge to use tools to remain at the top of the food chain that's why. And, the human animal has no apologies to make for doing so.

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Old November 24, 2013, 10:06 PM   #150
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I guess this entire thread can be summed up in one sentence. Were it not for hunters like the woman featured, there would have been no lion for her to have shot.
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