Kinetic Bullets Puller = KB. Possible? - Page 3

Edward429451 · July 3, 2012, 10:08 AM

Quote:

What does everyone think about drilling a hole in the side of the case to get the powder out?

I think you're being gunshy so to speak about it (understandable so!). I think it's been pretty well established that the trouble began when the slug hit the bottom of the hammer. If it was me I would cut them open with a hacksaw and not think twice about it. Do keep in mind that when I cut them, its in a trim die in the press so the cartridge is very stable.

The easiest thing to do is to buy a press mount puller, which should alleviate any chance of ignition.

edited to add, not enough coffee yet I guess, got my blank threads and KBP threads crossed. Just press pull them.

paw080 · July 3, 2012, 11:32 AM

Hi Guys,

I don't see how it's possible to set off the primer with a kinetic puller.

I've positioned the cartridge using a provided collet and I've used a

press shell holder. Guess what, the primer is not touched by anything!

The primer is exposed by a circular opening. I've used the Kinetic puller

to both remove the bullet and move it just forward enough to reseat to

a proper depth. I just tap the puller against a steel block, I do not hit

with force. I've had my RCBS kinetic puller for almost 25 years.

Tony

sc928porsche · July 3, 2012, 11:53 AM

Shell holders have a hole in the middle in order for the primer to fall through when depriming. It wont set off a primer.

jcwit · July 3, 2012, 05:16 PM

But the manufacturer specifies the use of a collet, perhaps the manufacturer knows nothing in regards to his product.

But in other tools we follow the manufacturer recommendations to the letter.

Seems as if we like to just pick and choose as to which rules we wish to follow and those we wish not to.

Makes sense, I spose!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Regarding a round going off in a puller, I've never had it happen, and I feel its highly unlikely, but then again I do not discount the possiblity that it is possible.

peter_s · July 3, 2012, 05:39 PM

The last time I used my kinetic puller I THOUGHT I had a KB but it was just me being too enthusiastic that sent pieces of the shattered plastic flying all over my basement. I still haven't found all the pieces.

dacaur · July 3, 2012, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Hi Guys,

I don't see how it's possible to set off the primer with a kinetic puller.

I've positioned the cartridge using a provided collet and I've used a

press shell holder. Guess what, the primer is not touched by anything!

The primer is exposed by a circular opening. I've used the Kinetic puller

to both remove the bullet and move it just forward enough to reseat to

a proper depth. I just tap the puller against a steel block, I do not hit

with force. I've had my RCBS kinetic puller for almost 25 years.

Tony

Quote:

Shell holders have a hole in the middle in order for the primer to fall through when depriming. It wont set off a primer.

yea, if you read the thread, we have been over this. Using the provided collet, a KB is not possible. Using a shellholder, it is. if you are using a caliber that is close to the diameter of the puller, you wont have a problem, but with many calibers its possible...

If you have a kinetic puller, take a few seconds with a case, a press shellholder and the puller, you will quickly see how if you were to use a shellholder from a press, rather than the collet that comes with the puller, its easily possible for the case to move far enough off center that an edge could hit the primer, that combined with a high primer is what caused the KB in the thread mentioned by the OP.

**Unclenick** · July 3, 2012, 11:11 PM

Mike.

No not losing it, though I was close to nodding off, given the hour I posted that. So my coherence appears to have been a bit challenged at the time. I'll try to connect the dots:

Without rereading the history, my recollection is that fulminate of mercury was the primary sensitizer for the first percussion caps and primers. These priming mixes evolved to include potassium chlorate, whose combustion products include corrosive potassium chloride. That addition didn't make a difference to rust in black powder bores because black powder's heavy fouling mixes with the potassium chloride, tending to prevent it from initiating rust with any greater propensity than black powder fouling by itself does anyway. So the addition of chlorate didn't appear to cause any new problems in BP days. Fulminate of mercury is both dangerous to handle and has poor shelf life and weakens cases for those who reload, so when, in the last 20 years of the 19th century, reliable priming mixes were developed with potassium chlorate as the only sensitizer, use of fulminate of mercury in priming compounds was phased out both here and in Europe. This was in both civilian and military cartridges, AFAIK, though I suppose some exceptions may have persisted.

That changeover to chlorate happened just as smokeless powder was in it's ascendancy, and because smokeless doesn't make a heavy fouling layer to protect the bore from chloride, smokeless powder guns rusted badly after shooting with chlorate primers when humidity was high enough. But because black powder cartridges using the same primers did not rust bores as vigorously, for a long time people thought the smokeless powder itself was to blame and referred to it as corrosive. It wasn't until the Huff report from the Bureau of Mines in the 1920's that the truth came to be known in this country.

The Swiss, on the other hand, had figured out the chlorate and rust connection by 1900. So, fulminate of mercury started to enjoy a revival in some priming compounds because it allowed barium nitrate to be substituted for potassium chlorate (based on those 1880's-ish fulminate plus chlorate formulas as a starting point), thus creating a non-corrosive priming compound. That resulted in the Germans starting to manufacture primers with that formulation at Spandau. Since we didn't figure the potassium chlorate connection out on this side of the pond until the 1920's (nobody here was then reading Swiss publications on arms developments, apparently), the first non-corrosive primers here didn't appear until around 1930 in the form of the first Kleanbore formulation, which also used fulminate. Lead trinitroresorcinate (normal lead styphnate) took over not long after, and the mercury was quickly gone again.

Since the Germans were among the first to manufacture mercuric non-corrosive primers, without knowing details of the German military primer specifications, it occurred to me, when we were first considering the primer had been the source of VAK98's explosion, to wonder if those Spandau mercuric primers had found their way into use by the German military munitions just because they would have known of them. War effort can bring about strange compromises. I know they were never used by our military because the shelf life issue was incompatible with stockpiling. It makes sense the German's would feel the same way, given a choice, but I didn't know for sure, which is why it occurred to me to suggest the possibility. You did know, so my question is answered, and that's not the cause of the problem.

Anyway, now you know how I came to be speaking of mercuric and non-corrosive priming interchangeably, as at one point in time they were synonymous.

The carbine gas system explanation makes sense for the carbine becoming the early adopter of lead styphnate primers. I've certainly seen plenty of heavy rust pitting under the carbon cake behind the stainless piston heads on Garand op-rods. At least those are quick to change out.

Paw080,

If you read my previous post and link, it is clear this was an incendiary round and the German design includes a small charge of PETN, which is more impact sensitive than typical priming mixes. Taken together with the fact the bullet jacket blew apart without the bullet ever moving in the case neck, it seems to me pretty certain that PETN is what caused the explosion and that the primer and the shell holder had nothing to do with it in this instance.

VAK98 · July 4, 2012, 01:04 AM

Unclenick,

Based on your analysis, along with the testimonials of many on here who have used KBPs for the combined removal of thousands of bullets it is safe to say that the use of the KBP with rounds not designed for trace or incindiary purposes should not result in an unintended functioning of any of the components of the round. However, when desiring to remove a bullet from a WW2 era German 8mm incindiary round with a KBP, extreme caution should be exercised as the bullet could explode due to the sensitivity of the PETN charge within the bullet. I say "could" as my neighbor did extract the first bullet without incident (and this was of the same lot as the bullet I had my issue with). I think the remaining 7 bullets could provide a good statsistical sample, but I'm not sure we're prepared to go down that road yet.

Thanks again to all that have contributed to this Thread as I think we have gained some valuable insight into how different ammo reacts under seemingly benign conditions.

vr

Bob

F. Guffey · July 4, 2012, 10:51 AM

http://www.odcmp.org/1101/USGI.pdf

A note: All 30 carbine ammo produced in WWII and after was non-corrosive.

F. Guffey

**Unclenick** · July 4, 2012, 11:22 AM

Bob,

That all sounds right to me. It's clear from the multiple hits required to set your round off that the PETN is not so sensitive you could count on it going off every time. I would not expect a tracer to cause this same problem, as it won't have a bursting charge.

I think you could drill a case out to rid yourself of the powder, but I would keep the cartridge submerged in water while doing it. Water prevents phosphorous from burning and should absorb most of the burst, should one fire. I'd be wearing a full face shield, welder's leather apron and welder's gloves while doing it. Afterward you would need to drain water out of the powder and set the round in a sealed plastic container with some desiccant for a few weeks to dry the powder out enough to flow.

dacaur · July 4, 2012, 11:47 AM

Even after removing the powder, I would still worry about the primer being able to set off the small charge and lighting the phosphorus....

wncchester · July 5, 2012, 07:54 AM

"There's room for the (shell) holder to cover a portion of the primed case get a bit of debris in between and a KB could realisticly happen."

Concevible yes, realistically no, IMHO.

Every shell holder I've ever seen has a relief channel cut to allow extra clearance for a moderately high primer so a primer that could be hit by the overlap would have to be very high indeed. If so the round would have had to be forced into the shell holder to begin with so any ignition event would have to be due to gross user negligence, NOT the primer OR the shell holder, as such.

Anyone claiming a loose 'bullet' being carried in a pocket or bag went off and penetrated into a leg will likely tell other lies too.

jcwit · July 5, 2012, 08:30 AM

But the manufacturer specifies the use of a collet, perhaps the manufacturer knows nothing in regards to their product.

Steel Talon · July 5, 2012, 01:06 PM

Quote:

"There's room for the (shell) holder to cover a portion of the primed case get a bit of debris in between and a KB could realisticly happen."

Concevible yes, realistically no, IMHO.

Every shell holder I've ever seen has a relief channel cut to allow extra clearance for a moderately high primer so a primer that could be hit by the overlap would have to be very high indeed. If so the round would have had to be forced into the shell holder to begin with so any ignition event would have to be due to gross user negligence, NOT the primer OR the shell holder, as such.

Jccwit summed it up well.....

Quote:

But the manufacturer specifies the use of a collet, perhaps the manufacturer knows nothing in regards to their product.

Using a shell holder in a kinetic puller is a shortcut to a means. It may work a million times ,but its prone to failure (Murphy's law and all that)

Those that argue its perfectly safe to use a shell holder, are willing to take a chance on an outcome that could lead to a shrapnel injury. One that I'm not willing to deal with in my hand loading system.

IMHO... I liken this attitude to the fellow at a range that finds an errant cartridge of someone else's hand load and is ok with shooting it through their own pistol/rifle.

July 3, 2012, 11:53 AM	#53
sc928porsche Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2008 Location: now living in alabama Posts: 2,433	Shell holders have a hole in the middle in order for the primer to fall through when depriming. It wont set off a primer. __________________ No such thing as a stupid question. What is stupid is not asking it.

July 3, 2012, 11:11 PM	#57
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	Mike. No not losing it, though I was close to nodding off, given the hour I posted that. So my coherence appears to have been a bit challenged at the time. I'll try to connect the dots: Without rereading the history, my recollection is that fulminate of mercury was the primary sensitizer for the first percussion caps and primers. These priming mixes evolved to include potassium chlorate, whose combustion products include corrosive potassium chloride. That addition didn't make a difference to rust in black powder bores because black powder's heavy fouling mixes with the potassium chloride, tending to prevent it from initiating rust with any greater propensity than black powder fouling by itself does anyway. So the addition of chlorate didn't appear to cause any new problems in BP days. Fulminate of mercury is both dangerous to handle and has poor shelf life and weakens cases for those who reload, so when, in the last 20 years of the 19th century, reliable priming mixes were developed with potassium chlorate as the only sensitizer, use of fulminate of mercury in priming compounds was phased out both here and in Europe. This was in both civilian and military cartridges, AFAIK, though I suppose some exceptions may have persisted. That changeover to chlorate happened just as smokeless powder was in it's ascendancy, and because smokeless doesn't make a heavy fouling layer to protect the bore from chloride, smokeless powder guns rusted badly after shooting with chlorate primers when humidity was high enough. But because black powder cartridges using the same primers did not rust bores as vigorously, for a long time people thought the smokeless powder itself was to blame and referred to it as corrosive. It wasn't until the Huff report from the Bureau of Mines in the 1920's that the truth came to be known in this country. The Swiss, on the other hand, had figured out the chlorate and rust connection by 1900. So, fulminate of mercury started to enjoy a revival in some priming compounds because it allowed barium nitrate to be substituted for potassium chlorate (based on those 1880's-ish fulminate plus chlorate formulas as a starting point), thus creating a non-corrosive priming compound. That resulted in the Germans starting to manufacture primers with that formulation at Spandau. Since we didn't figure the potassium chlorate connection out on this side of the pond until the 1920's (nobody here was then reading Swiss publications on arms developments, apparently), the first non-corrosive primers here didn't appear until around 1930 in the form of the first Kleanbore formulation, which also used fulminate. Lead trinitroresorcinate (normal lead styphnate) took over not long after, and the mercury was quickly gone again. Since the Germans were among the first to manufacture mercuric non-corrosive primers, without knowing details of the German military primer specifications, it occurred to me, when we were first considering the primer had been the source of VAK98's explosion, to wonder if those Spandau mercuric primers had found their way into use by the German military munitions just because they would have known of them. War effort can bring about strange compromises. I know they were never used by our military because the shelf life issue was incompatible with stockpiling. It makes sense the German's would feel the same way, given a choice, but I didn't know for sure, which is why it occurred to me to suggest the possibility. You did know, so my question is answered, and that's not the cause of the problem. Anyway, now you know how I came to be speaking of mercuric and non-corrosive priming interchangeably, as at one point in time they were synonymous. The carbine gas system explanation makes sense for the carbine becoming the early adopter of lead styphnate primers. I've certainly seen plenty of heavy rust pitting under the carbon cake behind the stainless piston heads on Garand op-rods. At least those are quick to change out. Paw080, If you read my previous post and link, it is clear this was an incendiary round and the German design includes a small charge of PETN, which is more impact sensitive than typical priming mixes. Taken together with the fact the bullet jacket blew apart without the bullet ever moving in the case neck, it seems to me pretty certain that PETN is what caused the explosion and that the primer and the shell holder had nothing to do with it in this instance. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; July 4, 2012 at 11:28 AM. Reason: typo fixes

July 4, 2012, 11:22 AM	#60
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	Bob, That all sounds right to me. It's clear from the multiple hits required to set your round off that the PETN is not so sensitive you could count on it going off every time. I would not expect a tracer to cause this same problem, as it won't have a bursting charge. I think you could drill a case out to rid yourself of the powder, but I would keep the cartridge submerged in water while doing it. Water prevents phosphorous from burning and should absorb most of the burst, should one fire. I'd be wearing a full face shield, welder's leather apron and welder's gloves while doing it. Afterward you would need to drain water out of the powder and set the round in a sealed plastic container with some desiccant for a few weeks to dry the powder out enough to flow. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; July 4, 2012 at 11:29 AM.

July 3, 2012, 11:32 AM	#52
paw080 Member Join Date: March 10, 2011 Location: Corona California Posts: 20	Hi Guys, I don't see how it's possible to set off the primer with a kinetic puller. I've positioned the cartridge using a provided collet and I've used a press shell holder. Guess what, the primer is not touched by anything! The primer is exposed by a circular opening. I've used the Kinetic puller to both remove the bullet and move it just forward enough to reseat to a proper depth. I just tap the puller against a steel block, I do not hit with force. I've had my RCBS kinetic puller for almost 25 years. Tony

July 3, 2012, 05:16 PM	#54
jcwit Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2007 Location: Upper Indiana Posts: 609	But the manufacturer specifies the use of a collet, perhaps the manufacturer knows nothing in regards to his product. But in other tools we follow the manufacturer recommendations to the letter. Seems as if we like to just pick and choose as to which rules we wish to follow and those we wish not to. Makes sense, I spose!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Regarding a round going off in a puller, I've never had it happen, and I feel its highly unlikely, but then again I do not discount the possiblity that it is possible.

July 3, 2012, 05:39 PM	#55
peter_s Member Join Date: January 25, 2011 Posts: 46	The last time I used my kinetic puller I THOUGHT I had a KB but it was just me being too enthusiastic that sent pieces of the shattered plastic flying all over my basement. I still haven't found all the pieces.

July 4, 2012, 01:04 AM	#58
VAK98 Junior Member Join Date: June 28, 2012 Posts: 4	Unclenick, Based on your analysis, along with the testimonials of many on here who have used KBPs for the combined removal of thousands of bullets it is safe to say that the use of the KBP with rounds not designed for trace or incindiary purposes should not result in an unintended functioning of any of the components of the round. However, when desiring to remove a bullet from a WW2 era German 8mm incindiary round with a KBP, extreme caution should be exercised as the bullet could explode due to the sensitivity of the PETN charge within the bullet. I say "could" as my neighbor did extract the first bullet without incident (and this was of the same lot as the bullet I had my issue with). I think the remaining 7 bullets could provide a good statsistical sample, but I'm not sure we're prepared to go down that road yet. Thanks again to all that have contributed to this Thread as I think we have gained some valuable insight into how different ammo reacts under seemingly benign conditions. vr Bob

July 4, 2012, 10:51 AM	#59
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	http://www.odcmp.org/1101/USGI.pdf A note: All 30 carbine ammo produced in WWII and after was non-corrosive. F. Guffey

July 4, 2012, 11:47 AM	#61
dacaur Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 2010 Posts: 733	Even after removing the powder, I would still worry about the primer being able to set off the small charge and lighting the phosphorus....

July 5, 2012, 07:54 AM	#62
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	"There's room for the (shell) holder to cover a portion of the primed case get a bit of debris in between and a KB could realisticly happen." Concevible yes, realistically no, IMHO. Every shell holder I've ever seen has a relief channel cut to allow extra clearance for a moderately high primer so a primer that could be hit by the overlap would have to be very high indeed. If so the round would have had to be forced into the shell holder to begin with so any ignition event would have to be due to gross user negligence, NOT the primer OR the shell holder, as such. Anyone claiming a loose 'bullet' being carried in a pocket or bag went off and penetrated into a leg will likely tell other lies too.

July 5, 2012, 08:30 AM	#63
jcwit Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2007 Location: Upper Indiana Posts: 609	But the manufacturer specifies the use of a collet, perhaps the manufacturer knows nothing in regards to their product.