Savage action screws torquing. Which front & back?

[Pistoler0]

Hello all,

I am trying to adjust my Savage 12 LPV trigger, I sent it to a smith for accurizing and now its too light and so it locks the safety. So I need to disassemble then reassemble the action from the stock in order to access the trigger, which seems to be straight forward.

I read in:
https://www.savageshooters.com/showt...-action-screws
and
https://www.accurateshooter.com/tech...torque-tuning/

where they say that for laminate stocks the torque is supposed to be 30-35 inch-lbs, presumably 35 for the front and 25 to 30 for the rear. The process is to apparently tighten the front first, then moving on to the rear

My confusion is that my Savage has THREE screws (as you can see in the picture): one in front of the magazine well, two others holding the trigger guard, so which one is the front that I should tighten first and which one is the back?


I am assuming that the 2 forward screws are the ones to be done first, but I want to double check with those of you in TFL that have experience with Savage.

Thank you in advance for the help.

[Bart B.]

When I used a Remington 700 action for a match rifle, national champions suggested 40 to 45 inch pounds on the front and back screws, 10 on the middle screw. I think Savage actions should use about the same.

Shoot at least 20 shots per test group to get statistically significant results

[stagpanther]

I don't have a 12--but that bottom metal looks identical to a 110 or 111, so I'll go with that. The best strategy, of course, is to follow the owner's manual directions. Typically it's best to simply start the front just enough to hold the receiver to the stock, turn the rifle vertically so the lug makes good contact with the lug inlet and torque the rear action screw down (middle in your picture), then finish tightening the front one (use the owner's manual inch/lbs specs).

All that said, if you're fitting to a wood stock, a lot depends on whether the action fits the stock's inletting well and what, if any, pillar/bedding it might have. I have purely subjective opinions on the matter but have pillared/bedded a fair share of wood stocks. An action that doesn't fit well to the stock never seems to have good contact with the stock--a typical reaction to this is for people to "compensate" by overtorqing the action screws, which typically leads to all kinds of consistency problems, not to mention potentially compressing the wood and cracking it. Two pretty good indicators I notice in stocks that are not mated well to the actions is that they often don't have a discernible "hit the wall" when torquing the screw and it's obvious it doesn't need to be turned further. Another sign of uneven fit is a "see saw" of the stock foreend as you torque it tight.

I just reread your first sentence, I'm willing to bet there's nothing wrong with your trigger, it's probably an issue with the trigger inlet in the stock. I know people say they have bought aftermarket wood stocks and their actions just dropped right in and they lived happily after driving bugeye groups all day long--that has never happened with any wood stock I've ever purchased, they all required work to get really good consistency out of them.

[Pistoler0]

Originally Posted by stagpanther

I'm willing to bet there's nothing wrong with your trigger, it's probably an issue with the trigger inlet in the stock.

Thank you stagpanther.

The reason I think it might be the trigger weight is that I read in Savageshooters that it is a common issue when setting the trigger too light that the system locks the safety. If the bolt is worked veeery slowly and carefully then it does not happen, which seems to be another symptom of a trigger set too light.

I should mention that this laminate wood stock is the original one for the rifle. I just got it back from a smith where it went for an accurizing job and that's when this problem started.

If it is the trigger inlet in the stock, how should I go about fixing it?

[stagpanther]

Thank you stagpanther.

The reason I think it might be the trigger weight is that I read in Savageshooters that it is a common issue when setting the trigger too light that the system locks the safety. If the bolt is worked veeery slowly and carefully then it does not happen, which seems to be another symptom of a trigger set too light.

If it is the trigger inlet in the stock, how should I go about fixing it?
__________________
Life is simply an inter-temporal problem of constrained optimization.

Go ahead and take the action out of the stock, I would turn it upside down and rest it so there is support cushioning your scope if your not going to remove it, that way you won't be stressing either screw as they come out of the receiver. Occasionally there is a washer of some sort in the junction of your trigger guard and bottom metal (the middle screw as seen in your picture). Remove the magazine before dissemble (and obviously check to make sure everything is clear, no ammo, before doing anything). Once you have the action out, test the functioning of the trigger (again, ensure the chamber is clear first) and whether or not the safety is functioning properly. If so, I can almost guarantee it's a stock inlet issue. Don't freak, this is very common, all the Boyds stocks I've bought have required some inletting work. It's easy to fix, assuming you know what your doing--but the same token it's easy to ruin the stock if you don't. I'm surprised your smith didn't ensure the action worked without issues with the stock--even if all he did was work on the trigger.

Check that the action is functioning properly out of the stock first to determine if the issue is not with the stock.

Forgot to ask--what is the trigger? Triggers that fit into savage actions that have the 3 position safeties with the "serrated" safety tab can be tricky to reassemble properly. Oh--one other thing I forgot--where the safety meets the stock--is it flush with it or does it look like there is an uneven gap?

[stagpanther]

Oooops--just read that the savage 12 does in fact have 3 receiver screws--so disregard my comment about the rearmost one doing nothing, however I suspect that most of the stuff still holds true for proper seating function, so I would still advise doing your check with the action out f the stock.

[Pistoler0]

Originally Posted by stagpanther

I'm surprised your smith didn't ensure the action worked without issues with the stock--even if all he did was work on the trigger.

Check that the action is functioning properly out of the stock first to determine if the issue is not with the stock.

Forgot to ask--what is the trigger? Triggers that fit into savage actions that have the 3 position safeties with the "serrated" safety tab can be tricky to reassemble properly. Oh--one other thing I forgot--where the safety meets the stock--is it flush with it or does it look like there is an uneven gap?

No, the smith worked on more stuff than the trigger, supposedly:

"precision machine the front ring of the receiver and locking ring so they are concentric with the threads in the receiver. Replace the stock recoil lug with a Holland or SSS over-sized recoil lug that is ground flat on both sides. Then true the bolt face to be in line with action threads. The recoil lugs on the bolt head and in the receiver are either machined or lapped for maximum contact. The firing pin protrusion is checked and adjusted if necessary. "

This is a picture of the safety (I cannot tell you what the trigger is):

[stagpanther]

No, the smith worked on more stuff than the trigger, supposedly:

"precision machine the front ring of the receiver and locking ring so they are concentric with the threads in the receiver. Replace the stock recoil lug with a Holland or SSS over-sized recoil lug that is ground flat on both sides. Then true the bolt face to be in line with action threads. The recoil lugs on the bolt head and in the receiver are either machined or lapped for maximum contact. The firing pin protrusion is checked and adjusted if necessary. "
__________________

Don't get excited, my gut feeling is there is a simple solution. Sounds like your smith blueprinted the action and lug for optimal alignment of the barrel to the receiver. My question is did he fit it to your stock as part of the work he did (and presumably did a function check)? If he was the one who did the work, have you called him and asked for his advice?

[Pistoler0]

Originally Posted by stagpanther

Oooops--just read that the savage 12 does in fact have 3 receiver screws--so disregard my comment about the rearmost one doing nothing, however I suspect that most of the stuff still holds true for proper seating function, so I would still advise doing your check with the action out f the stock.

I am going to try to contact the smith tomorrow. The problem is that they are out of state, and shipping the rifle again is a pain in the you know what ....

[stagpanther]

I am going to try to contact the smith tomorrow. The problem is that they are out of state, and shipping the rifle again is a pain in the you know what ....

Again--did you send him the whole rifle--or just the action? Keep your eye on the prize--a great shooting gun, so again I wouldn't get all excited that your smith screwed you over somehow, as frustrating as this may be. It's entirely possible the gun worked perfectly at your smith, but by the time the shipping services were done with seeing who could throw the longest bomb with the package something could have been knocked out of alignment. About 50% of the packages I get these days are damaged.

[stagpanther]

If it's the stock trigger (your smith didn't put a new after-market one in) it's probably the accutrigger, and this being an upper-end rifle I suspect it has the 3 position safety. I'm not familiar with the model 12, but if the safety/trigger assembly has a separate screw for the safety travel adjustment it is possible to have to fine tune that when changing the triggerpull weight. It's also possible to incorrectly reassemble the trigger and attach the safety on this style of trigger locking the safety--I've done it myself more than once but it's simply a question of doing things in the right sequence.

[Pistoler0]

Originally Posted by stagpanther

If it's the stock trigger (your smith didn't put a new after-market one in) it's probably the accutrigger, and this being an upper-end rifle I suspect it has the 3 position safety.

Ah yes, it does have the 3 position safety.

I sent the smith the whole rifle.

Originally Posted by stagpanther

Keep your eye on the prize--a great shooting gun, so again I wouldn't get all excited that your smith screwed you over somehow, as frustrating as this may be.

Oh, I'm not. I got the rifle back on Thursday 2/4th and I just had a chance to inspect it yesterday (Saturday) and the smith is closed today. I will try to contact them on Monday, I am sure they will figure it out, so far they have been great to work with.

I thought that if it was just a matter of too light a trigger I would adjust it myself (as I should probably learn how to do that anyway) but I will for sure contact them to see what they say.

[jmr40]

I would snug up both the front and rear screws, not tight, just enough so the action doesn't move in the stock. Tighten the front screw 1st, then the rear. The middle screw is just there to help hold the bottom metal in place. It doesn't need to be really tight. In fact too tight is bad.

[Marco Califo]

If you have the Accutrigger you know by looking at it. There is the trigger, and a safety lever you touch first with your trigger finger. It is like Glock trigger safety.
IMO there is no good reason to fiddle with the Accutrigger. Factory-set is 3 lbs. You, or a gunsmith, will not likely improve that noticeably. I would be more concerned that the trigger safety still works and wont go off unintentionally.
That third screw holds the trigger guard on my Savage rifles, but I do not own 12 (I do not see where OP says 12).
I have Savage plastic stocks and 3 Boyds stocks. The Savage barrels free float and a good stock does not touch the barrel. Mine were all drop-in.
As to the bolts, I start them both and tighten and look repeatedly, one then the other. When I am happy I tighten them.

[stagpanther]

(I do not see where OP says 12)

It's the model he put links to. The acuutriggers (or any trigger, for that matter) I've installed in after-market wood stocks can "act up" if there's even the slightest interference with the inlet in an aftermarket wood stock. The OP hasn't mentioned whether this is savage's original wood stock or an aftermarket.

I just looked it up and it does come with a factory laminate stock--so I assume the odds of the problem being with the stock are pretty minimal--sorry bout that. The odd thing is that I read it comes with blueprinted action from the factory--not sure why it would need additional work. I've put an after-market precision lug onto a couple of savages--if they are thicker/deeper than stock they might involve needing to work the lug inlet for proper fit.

[Marco Califo]

Boyd's makes the factory laminate stocks Savage uses on some factory rifles, so they have a track record. They are computer inlet to house actions, in this case Savage rifles. I cant speak to other laminated stocks, but mine (bought from Boyds) were what I was expecting. Boyds jacked their prices anout a year ago.

[stagpanther]

Boyd's makes the factory laminate stocks Savage used on some factory rifles, so they have a track record. They are computer inlet to house actions, in this case Savage rifles. I cant speak to other laminated stocks, but mine were what I was expecting. Boyds jacked their prices anout a year ago.

I also have a savage that came with a Boyd's stock as "standard equipment"--but the fit in finish is far superior compared to the aftermarket ones I buy directly from Boyds. Tried buying one from savage--they said "nope, ask Boyds," and they said "nope" too, but pointed me to the closest thing they have in their present production.

[Colorado Redneck]

PistolerO
When you say the "safety locks up" can you describe exactly what happens? I've had several Accutriggers, and if the trigger is adjusted too light, when the blade is pressed so your finger touches the trigger and starts to move it, the firing mechanism goes haywire and results in a misfire. If the bolt is raised and then lowered it resets the mechanism. I experienced this and by adjusting the trigger so it requires a bit more pressure to pull the problem is corrected.

[stagpanther]

Inside the trigger assembly the safety has a pin which needs to be adjusted so that the safety can safely back and forth and is timed properly to the functioning of the trigger. Upon reassembly of the trigger the safety needs to be in the proper position (IIRC that would be safety off, been a while since I messed with one of these), if not, the safety can lock when you cycle the action--that has been my experience. Not knowing what your guy did in the accurizing of the trigger--I guess it's possible something may have changed the functioning of the trigger and how it affects the safety. This is one of those "hard to do internet diagnosis" things. ; ) But if you pull the stock off and test the action functioning I bet that would at least clear up whether it's a fitment problem. It's not a drastically complicated process that risks messing the rifle up, but since your smith worked on it talking with him over the phone to walk you through the remedy is a good idea. Some however, might not want to do that and just say "send it back" so they can have it in hand to diagnose.

[Pistoler0]

Originally Posted by Colorado Redneck

PistolerO
When you say the "safety locks up" can you describe exactly what happens? I've had several Accutriggers, and if the trigger is adjusted too light, when the blade is pressed so your finger touches the trigger and starts to move it, the firing mechanism goes haywire and results in a misfire. If the bolt is raised and then lowered it resets the mechanism. I experienced this and by adjusting the trigger so it requires a bit more pressure to pull the problem is corrected.

Colorado Redneck, I think that's what could be going on. That's why I posted this thread, because I intend to separate the rifle from the stock to get to the trigger. I am waiting for a torque wrench that I just ordered to arrive.

I think the smith might have set the trigger too light, as you say.

Lets see if I can describe precisely what happens:

- If I work the bolt veeery slowly and smoothly, all is ok.

- If I work the bolt just a bit more briskly, I hear a click and the safety and the trigger bind. Also, the side lever that is used to pull out the bolt, moves down a teeny bit. The trigger and safety are now locked and only by working the trigger will they unbind. I think what is happening here is that the trigger is firing and the safety pin is preventing it from doing so and locking the trigger group.

- Now if I work the bolt slowly and I engage the safety, and with the safety engaged I press the trigger, then remove the finger from the trigger, and then disengage the safety, the rifle then fires (upon disengaging the safety) without having to press the trigger.

During my research I have found that setting the trigger too light can cause similar symptoms as you well described. I also read that some people switch the spring from the generation 1 accu-trigger (which sometimes binds) and put a generation 2 spring in (whatever that means).

Stagpanther, yes it is one of those "hard to internet diagnosis" things, ha ha
I thought everything was the same if done on the internet only more convenient, why do it in real life when you can do it on a screen?

Internet tele-medicine anyone? : )

[stagpanther]

You don't need anything special to remove the screws--a hex key should do, I wouldn't worry about any precision in the the torque pressure or reassemble "voodoo" since it's not operating properly anyway. Like I said--verify the proper operation (or not) of the action outside the stock. Your description of the bolt release "reignites" my suspicion of fitment/inlet issue. Here's one you can do without any worries or tools--can you easily remove the bolt--and does the bolt release go all the way down when pressing without any binding? It's usually part of the trigger's sear bracket and a good indicator when it's binding. Savage's cross pins that hold the sear and trigger to the receiver can sometimes drift out of alignment easily.

Do you actually have the owner's manual and have read it thoroughly? (don't mean that in a mean way) You may want to check the bolt when it's out to make sure it's working properly as well. Savages often come with loose screws in my experience

[Colorado Redneck]

PistolerO
Do you have the tool required to adjust the Accutrigger? It requires a little gizmo to do that.

[Nathan]

I would snug up both the front and rear screws, not tight, just enough so the action doesn't move in the stock. Tighten the front screw 1st, then the rear. The middle screw is just there to help hold the bottom metal in place. It doesn't need to be really tight. In fact too tight is bad.

This has been said twice now and is not accurate.



The bolt on each side of the magazine is to be torqued to 35 in lbs.

The rear tapping screw is to be just tightened secure.....I run down to no looseness and give it just 1/16 to 1/8 turn to secure.

[stagpanther]

This has been said twice now and is not accurate.

That is because people often refer to the rear-most screw as a "receiver" screw, when it really isn't, it just balances the triggerguard to the stock. There is often a difference between torquing down an action to a OEM Tupperware stock and a wood stock that has been properly pillared and bedded, so I don't pay much attention to the "torque advice"--they are just starting points, eventually your rifle will show what the best consistency setting is. Wood stocks have come to me for work where the bottom metal inlet is compressed down from overtorquing the rear screw--and the wood area in front of the trigger inlet cracked.

That's a great picture--thanks for tracking it down--I assume it's an actual 12 action?

The issues I commonly see with Boyd's stocks that require some refinement to the stock to get the trigger to function properly I can associate with this picture. Where the bolt release (which is part of the sear bracket) goes through the inlet in the stock, often the stock inlet needs widening and lengthening in order for the release to function properly. Another "problematic" area is the where the bottom front of the sear bracket comes very close to the rear receiver screw--that's a tough one because Boyd's leaves as much wood as they can in the inlet since that's a high stress area, but it almost always impedes that bracket without some judicious material removal, I automatically would pillar and devcon the rear receiver screw area in a wood stock for a savage for this reason alone. The trigger shelf (for lack of better description, the long part of the trigger that sticks out front with the notch for the sear to catch) also requires adequate space in the inlet. Once in a while I see a trigger that can't properly be depressed all the way back within the trigger guard due to alignment issues of the action within the stock and the triggerguard inlet.

[Nathan]

I assume it's an actual 12 action?

I have no idea. I’m not sure what makes a 12 a 12. It looks like a 110 trap door magazine...staggerfeed??

You make a good point about torque....proper torque is where things don’t loosen and the action doesn’t shift. Probably bedding changes this too as well as stock quality.

I find a standard factory gun usually torques 25-35 in lbs, bedded 40-60 in lbs, chassis 50-80 in lbs.....80 is only 6.7 ft lbs.

Where the bolt release (which is part of the sear bracket) goes through the inlet in the stock, often the stock inlet needs widening and lengthening in order for the release to function properly. Another "problematic" area is the where the bottom front of the sear bracket comes very close to the rear receiver screw--that's a tough one because Boyd's leaves as much wood as they can in the inlet since that's a high stress area, but it almost always impedes that bracket without some judicious material removal, I automatically would pillar and devcon the rear receiver screw area in a wood stock for a savage for this reason alone.

Savage should have clearance cut the sear, IMO, to get more wood in there and to get a better pillar in there. That is one of the reasons I put my last Savage in a chassis.