Combat shotgun choke?

[BillX]

A lot of makers of combat shotguns don't offer chokes; just cylinder bore. The range of most shotguns with buckshot can't exceed 30 yards or we start not hitting a mansized target. Wouldn't improved, modified or, better yet, choke tubes give a better pattern with buck and still allow slug use? If choke tubes are used, could we extend the range of buckshot to 40 yards and beyond?

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"Every normal man must be tempted, at times to spit on his hands,hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." H.L. Mencken

[Dave McC]

At typical HD ranges,choke is not crucial, the load pretty much hits as a solid mass. And that's the advantage of the shotgun, its ability to put massive amounts of energy into a target.

Past typical ranges, choke does play a role. As you cite, a modified choke, or any past the cylinder bore so common these days, will produce superior results, and less flyers.
Choke is not the only factor, though. The load itself is important. Here premium loads with plated shot, buffering agents, long shot cups, etc, can keep the pellets where they belong.

Also, lengthening the forcing cone will not tighten the pattern, but helps to keep the pellets within the pattern by keeping them rounder, thus flying true.

My HD 870 is chokeless, the original bbl having been trimmed to 18" and a little. It has the forcing cone work, and delivers tighter groups than similiar 870s w/o but with "Police Cylinder" or IC chokes.

Caveat, even with slugs, tight chokes, custom bbl work,and the right tide and phase pf the moon, shotguns are close range weapons.

Caveat II,ALL shotguns should be pattern tested and the best loads determined by actual testing, not because of testimonial evidence nor good adverts.

[jthuang]

Cylinder bore is typically used for the reasons Dave mentioned. It's probably cheaper too.

Let me also add that standard constriction (i.e., IC, M, F and all the rest) tend to actually cause erratic patterns with buckshot beyond contact distances. Standard constriction will cause the buckshot pellets to slam against each other, causing deformation. Deformed pellets don't fly right -- and so you'll get "flyers" in your patterns. The cylinder choke avoids this problem but does not give a decent amount of usable pattern at longer ranges.

The solution? Vang Comp or Patternmaster.

HTH,

Justin

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Justin T. Huang, Esq.
late of Kennett Square, Pennsylvania

[Glamdring]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Caveat, even with slugs, tight chokes, custom bbl work,and the right tide and phase pf the moon, shotguns are close range weapons.

Caveat II,ALL shotguns should be pattern tested and the best loads determined by actual testing, not because of testimonial evidence nor good adverts.[/B][/quote]

What is close range? With my used Win 1300 I can make head shots with slugs, from a rest on demand usually at 50 yards. Off hand I can hold 6 to 8" groups at 50 yards with slugs. The gun is certainly capable of better and I am working at shooting up to the gun. The only work done to my SG was to have an aperture sight added.

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There can be only one!

[BillX]

Thanks for the input. If you are using a 8-10# weapon that is 36" long for a close range weapon and you have to shift to slugs for anything over 25 yds. why not stick with a .308 rifle? I am not trying to get under anyone's skin here, it just sounds to me like a semi auto battle rifle will do everything a shotgun would do at close range (maybe too much penetration?) and still be available for 500 yd work without changing ammo. What is the role of the shotgun in a combat or self defense situation?
Thanks, Bill

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"Every normal man must be tempted, at times to spit on his hands,hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." H.L. Mencken

[JNewell]

Justin, not to start a disagreement or anything, but IIRC (big "if"), the NRA AR article on chokes for tactical loads from 1998 found, in general, that the best results were achieved with modified barrels. I recently traded a Mossy for an 870 PM and it came choked IC (and patterns quite well at 25 yards).

It may be that the hardened shot in the "tactical" loads survives the choke better, without deforming and therefore becoming erratic? I may also be suffering from faulty memory...&lt;g&gt;

[jthuang]

Indeed, as Dave said the shotgun is a close range weapon. Perhaps the ideal one, at that.

Regarding the question on "what is close range" -- well, in both Suarez's "The Tactical Shotgun" and Farnam's "The Farnam Method of Defensive Rifle and Shotgun Shooting", there are three zones specified (A, B, C).

The A zone is contact distance where generally buckshot and birdshot have not yet left the shot cup. The B zone is from the end of the A zone to 25 yards. The C zone is out to the maximum effective range with slugs (i.e., 75 to 100 yards).

Thus, the maximum effective range of a shotgun is about 100 yards with slugs. That is a close range weapon, especially when you compare it to a rifle in 5.56 NATO or 7.62 NATO.

A semi-auto battle rifle in 7.62 NATO indeed has overpenetration problems at closer distances. Consider also that buckshot, because of the relatively non-aerodynamic shape of a buckshot pellet (compared to the spitzer type shape of a rifle bullet) will lose kinetic energy faster as it travels downrange, thereby reducing (but not eliminating!) the chance of innocent casualties as range increases.

Shotguns are cheaper than semi-auto battle rifles. Also, in some jurisdictions (e.g., CA) semi-auto battle rifles are regulated almost out of existence. The shotgun is probably the least regulated firearm on today's market and may be the only real legal alternative for defense for some families.

John, just saw your post. I did not see that AR article, but I would tend to agree -- the lower velocity of the tactical loads (and the fact that the tactical load uses eight 00 buck pellets instead of nine) may reduce the chance of bumping and grinding. I did not know the pellets were hardened as well -- that would certainly help patterns too!

HTH,

Justin

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Justin T. Huang, Esq.
late of Kennett Square, Pennsylvania


[This message has been edited by jthuang (edited May 17, 2000).]

[Rob62]

Food for thought to those who are thinking of having ready multi choke capability on their "social" shotguns...........Polychoke.

I first saw a local Deputy Sheriff with one on his personal Mossberg 500. The barrel had been shortened to 18" aprox including the permanently installed Polychoke. After giving this set up a lot of thought I decided to set up my 870 with a Polychoke as well. It has been one of the best decisions that I ever made. Ultimately I decided that I wanted the total length of my barrel and choke right at the 20" mark as I already had a magazine tube extension and didn't want to have to replace it.

Now I keep the choke set at the modified setting, but if I ever needed to I could just turn the adjusting sleeve with one simple motion of my hand and have either a cylinder of super full setting.

Rob

RKBA!

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It's amazing what a large group of stupid people can accomplish.
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[Dr.Rob]

At 50 yards from the bench i can make 3 slugs TOUCH each other at 50 yards (870 with 21 inch barrel with rifled tube using winchester 2and 3/4 1oz. slugs at maximum dram) at ten feet that same barrel will deliver a load of shot just over an inch across.. at 15v yards you can SEE the wad hit the center of a 6 inch steel plate every time I pull the trigger. shoot my shotgun a lot.. so that's part of the secret of my success. At IPDA targets while running a 9 shot course of fire I typically hit the zero ring at every range (longest shot was 25yards). Shooting clays with this barrel/tube combo can be hit or miss but for 25 yards or less its lethal.

I've never patterened a heavy buckshot load at farther than 25 yards.. to me beyond that is slug range.

MANY slugs can be fired through choked barrels.. but the recoil is heavier and the slug gets deformed and can even keyhole.

I think Rifle sights make a shotgun a better weapon overall.. just like a handgun at close range you just use the front sight and at long range you aim.

Dr.Rob

[Gorthaur]

I went the VangComp route with a modified 590A-1, but the Tac-Chokes™ equipped FN Police Shotgun looks interesting and less expensive.

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Protect your Right to Keep and Bear Arms!

[This message has been edited by Gorthaur (edited May 17, 2000).]

[jthuang]

Good points here. Note that Farnam speaks favorably of the polychoke in his shotgun book, as well as the Vang Comp system and Patternmaster.

One thing about the Patternmaster -- you cannot use Brenneke or sabot slugs but you may use Foster slugs. Federal tactical slugs are Foster slugs so not much of a loss there.

Justin

[Dave McC]

I'd call 25 yards the limit for where the shotgun is best. Yes, some of the Southern boys that hunt with 00 and tweaked shotguns do well past that, but the usual backstop for deer hunting is swamp and forest, not the 'hood.

Agency shotguns and 00 do not put all pellets on a B-27 target at 25 yards.

As for Polychokes, they're a viable alternative. I've had them on sporting shotguns in the past, and they work well. I don't like the looks, it's like having an onion on the muzzle, but they do work.

[Rob62]

Dave,

There are some versions of teh Polychoke devices that are more streamlined than others. I have one of these, I got it in a trade and am not sure if they still make this type. But in _some_ ways it almost looks like a thin compensator.

The more I shoot this gun the more I like it. Having the Polychoke installed did nothing to change the point of impact of the shot pattern. If anything it helped bring it to exact center. I would HIGHLY recommend anyone considering installing a Polychoke on their HD or social SG to do it.

Rob

RKBA!

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It's amazing what a large group of stupid people can accomplish.
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