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Old February 7, 2018, 11:34 PM   #1
3Crows
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Source for 420/430 grain GC bullets?

I carried my 45-70 SBL in Alaska last spring for protection. I was carrying BB loads +P. But since that time I have become a fan of HSM and their 45-70 405 grain "Cowboy" load. This a 15BH (?) hard cast, no gas check and it shoots wonderful and clocks about 1300 fps from my Marlin SBL 18.5 barrel. Kills deer, hogs and steel gongs with authority and is accurate and mild shooting.

But their 430 grain "Bear Load" is a true thumper with a very hard cast bullet that has a huge metplat. And herein lies the problem, they load them over length at 2.555 which is slightly over maximum length of 2.550. This over length coupled with the huge cylindrical shaped bullet and huge flat metplat will sometimes have the bullet catch on the ramp into the chamber. The ramp in a Marlin is not smooth but has a few little ridges (every Marlin 45-70 I have ever seen is this way) as the parts come together and the over long cartridge and fat bullet do not like to make the turn into the chamber and will try to jam.

If I cycle the lever smartly they feed fine but with my rifle ALL OTHER ammo, factory, home loads of all sorts and bullets, feed reliably but none are over length.

I would like to understand the HSM load, so I can duplicate it with another bullet of more favorable dimensions. I have taken a leather strops and worked the edge from the HSM and this helps feeding but it does not address the over length condition.

Does anyone have a suggestion for a suitable 420/430 grain hard cast with gas check? And I would love to know what powder and load folks use for such rounds, intended for use against big, toothy and dangerous critters.

3C
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Old February 8, 2018, 01:28 AM   #2
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Marlin 1895s are known to have difficulty with maximum length cartridges. The issue is the length of the carrier: it simply cannot be made any longer, so you have to limit the length and shape of the loaded ammo you feed it. I have had trouble feeding 405 LRN gr loads, but the factory 405 LFP loads feed OK, and the factory 350 gr loads go through it like they should.

If you handload, you can seat whatever bullet you choose deep enough to work, but it will limit your powder space.
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Old February 8, 2018, 07:45 PM   #3
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I found what I need, Cast Performance 420 grain with gas checks, should be perfect for a bear buster/self preservation round.

I am working up four loads for my 45-70. One is a plinker load which is 14 grains of Trail Boss and a Missouri 405 grain hard cast #1 Buffalo. It shoots great, quiet and rings gongs at 50 yards with aplomb.

So that leaves my light hunting load, heavy hunting load and my bear buster load to go, one down, three to go.

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Old February 8, 2018, 07:49 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorch View Post
Marlin 1895s are known to have difficulty with maximum length cartridges. The issue is the length of the carrier: it simply cannot be made any longer, so you have to limit the length and shape of the loaded ammo you feed it. I have had trouble feeding 405 LRN gr loads, but the factory 405 LFP loads feed OK, and the factory 350 gr loads go through it like they should.

If you handload, you can seat whatever bullet you choose deep enough to work, but it will limit your powder space.

Yeah, I know that is the basic issue which is why I want to duplicate the HSM Bear Load round closely. My rifle does chamber them but once in a while one wants to hang. But I figure for the purpose I need such a round, I would rather they feed smoothly 100% of the time and not 99% of the time. My luck, should they ever be needed remote as it is, I would start with the 1% one.

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Old February 11, 2018, 08:36 AM   #5
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Would throating the chamber's rifling for the heavier bullets be an option ? My Pedersoli 1875 Sharps is specifically throated for the use of .457" 535 gr Postel or Creedmoore bullets.
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Old February 11, 2018, 11:49 AM   #6
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Would throating the chamber's rifling for the heavier bullets be an option ? My Pedersoli 1875 Sharps is specifically throated for the use of .457" 535 gr Postel or Creedmoore bullets.
The chamber length is not the problem. The issue is that the length available inside the receiver between the bolt face and the forward wall of the receiver is not long enough to reliably accommodate rounds longer than the standard maximum 2.550 inches. And 2.556 is over length (HSM 430 grain Bear Load). That coupled with the HSM cylindrical shaped bullet makes the issue worse as the diagonal length from top of the rim to lower edge of the metplat as the round rides the carrier up is even longer, again due to the cylindrical bullet shape.

I have not gotten them yet, but the Performance Cast 420 grain with gas check still is a hefty chunk of lead but it has a little more ogive (and slightly smaller metplat therefore) than the HSM 430 grain Bear Load bullet. I am confident it will work well in a Marlin 1895. I suspect if I took the HSM down and then reseated ever so slightly deeper they too would feed reliably (actually, as I said early on, they do feed in my rifle but I do not trust them too in that 1% time I really need them--maybe).

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Old February 11, 2018, 10:14 PM   #7
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Awww crud. I wished I’d have read this thread before I picked up 2 boxes of bear load for my 1895 on sale Friday. It didn’t occur to me that they might be too long.
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Old February 11, 2018, 11:24 PM   #8
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Hey, they may be fine. Like I said, they cycle in my SBL, barely. I am hardly an expert on this. Every rifle is a little different. If your rifle was built with more tolerance stack it may like them fine. Maybe my rifle is just a little the opposite.

HSM makes quality ammo. I just wish they would make this one a little less long and a little more ogive, lol!

You ought to get some of their Cowboy stuff too. About the same power level as the Remington "safe for all rifles" jacketed roiund but of course a 405 grain hard cast lead bullet instead, Starline brass too. Plenty enough for deer and hogs.

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Old February 12, 2018, 11:10 PM   #9
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Actually, I did pick up 2 boxes of each: Bear load and Cowboy.

I'll just cross my fingers.
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Old February 12, 2018, 11:35 PM   #10
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Quote:
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Actually, I did pick up 2 boxes of each: Bear load and Cowboy.

I'll just cross my fingers.
If you do not like the HSM Cowboy I will be surprised. I like it a lot. I picked up a bunch more this weekend, on sale, dirt cheap at Cabela's All Outdoors sale. I think it was $21.95 per box of twenty. I can hardly home brew for that price when considering my time.

The Cowboy stuff shoots nice, plenty of power for whitetail and hogs. It is not over length and the bullet has plenty of ogive to feed smoothly. You will like it for the price, I am sure. It is running about 1300fps or a little under from my SBL. That is right around 1500 lb/ft of energy. It smacks my big steel gongs with authority even at 100 yards and at 50 knocked one of them off the chains. As one would expect from a 45-70 it whistled clean through the shoulders of the deer I got with it, he fell in his tracks.

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Old February 13, 2018, 08:37 AM   #11
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I attended a Creedmoor (BPCR) match (shooting 800,900 &1000 yards.

Not knowing much, I figured cast bullets in rifles would be like cast bullets in pistols, the harder the bullet, and pushed fast would be the way to go.

Then I started shooting. They weren't accurate. To the contrary, they tumbled, you could hear them whistling through the air.

Then I had a discussion with Kenny Wasserburger who was running the match. Kenny is what I would call an expert in BPRS, having won several national championships, setting several records.

Soon as he hard my bullet whistling through the air he told me what I was doing wrong.

1: Bullets too hard, 2: Too much velocity.

In the 45-70 cast bullet should be soft lead ( like muzzleloader bullets). An also should be kept to the orginal BP velocity. That being 1100-1300 fps.

For long range power and long range accuracy its hard to beat the 535 gr Postel bullet.

For short or medium range the 405 gr work perfectly.

They dont need to be hard cast nor a lot of velocity. A gazlian buffalo have been killed with that load. The Army gave them away to enchourage the killing off the buffalo to assist in getting the Indians on reservations.

Depending on the gun, there isnt much recoil. None with my Trapdoor Springfield Rifle, a bit more with my Browning Model 1885.
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Old February 13, 2018, 10:12 AM   #12
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If i was chasing or wanting protection I would move to modern monolith bullet design. CEB has some Raptor designed for 45-70 that is a true killers or the CPS design from Northfork bullets is also great terminal performer. No issues with feeding a lever gun and much easier on the shoulder.

For black bear even the Hornady GMX offering didn't let my 350 LBer go but 15 yards with a heart shoot.

Don't be decieved by the lighter weight of these bullets- penetration will not be an issue
and the terminal destruction is suffient for the largest NA predators

be safe
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Old February 13, 2018, 10:20 AM   #13
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As for powders in 45-70

My preference for lighter bullets (350 grain and lighter) is 4198 and for the heavier bullet is 3031

Both my Marlin guide gun and Ruger #1 shoot touching groups at 100 yards with factory Hornady 250 GMX or 325 FTX- I don't find the FTX to produce consistent terminal and don't hunt with them (they would be ok for deer).

Be safe
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Old February 13, 2018, 07:39 PM   #14
3Crows
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I am sure the Raptor is a mean bullet. I may need to study on that.

My interest in the 420gr hard cast and above is not for hunting, not for target shooting, not for plinking not for anything but busting a bear at probably under 50 yards strictly in self defense. Because at 100 yards I am hunting not self defending.

My experience with both HSM Bear and BB heavy +P is that they kick like a mule but are also quite accurate. I do not know how they would be in a 1,000 yard target shoot but I know they are not tumbling at the ranges I have tried them out to 200 plus yards from my SBL.

I just want to home load my own with a 420ish gr hard cast at about the same power level as the HSM Bear which is a +P but not quite as stout as the heavy BB or similar loads with a bullet that feeds reliably and at a COLA that meets SAMI spec of 2.550 length.

I do not like the idea of shooting copper jacket bullets in my SBL that has seen only lead cast.

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Old February 14, 2018, 06:48 PM   #15
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On-line source fo cast gas-checked bullets-
Leadheads- https://www.proshootpro.com/
Moyers- http://moyerscastbullets.com/
Beartooth- https://beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm
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Old February 14, 2018, 08:31 PM   #16
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The Pile Driver Jr looks promising, 425gr, as does the Cast Performance (Grizzly), 420gr, I had previously mentioned.

http://www.grizzlycartridge.com/inde...w&ref=cp458cal


Thanks,
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