facing a violent mob when carrying, milwaukee state fair... - Page 3

youngunz4life · August 8, 2011, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Since situations can change very quickly the very instant there is a problem leave INSTANTLY !

only problem mete, many times it is too late when you realize the gravity of the situation. of course sometimes you can use this to your advantage but many times it is too late.

as for the knee cap thing. I can't say I disagree with where you were going with that okie, but kneeling and shooting low shots like that have a smaller target to hit(legs), so this creates more misses and more innocents at risk. It also would cause many more riccochets. Best to center mass the shots.

drawing on a mob is very dangerous but it can work as long as you try and leave ASAP after that point. of course, I haven't actually had to do so but whaa else can you do if they're about on you and literally focusing on you? I know there are factors or possibilites to do something else, but there is also a chance that drawing is your safest bet. In this situation, if someone had drawn a weapon(Wisconsin CCW is brand new) and he/she did it for all the legally correct reasons of protecting his/her family, I think there is a good chance the punks might've been confused long enough to give way to the CCW's exit w/his family.

**Tom Servo** · August 8, 2011, 01:53 AM

Quote:

No I haven't, that's one reason I asked; I'm trying to learn something

I've seen two, both self-inflicted. In one case, subject stuck the gun in his mouth, then pulled the trigger. Witnesses describe him flinching and "passing out." When I got to him (roughly 15 seconds later), he was lying on his back and looked placid. It wasn't until I went to check his pulse that I saw the blood pooling out from under his head.

In the second case, the shot entered the skull from the right side, pointing left. Things on the left were messy, but the bystanders (who were to the right) did not immediately realize what happened, as the mess wasn't apparent in the grass and dirt in the area.

Chances are, if a group of people are high on drugs, or simply highly agitated, they're not going to notice if the guy next to them gets shot. They'll hear the report and see the flash, but they'll most likely thing the guy tripped. Bear in mind that someone in that state isn't looking at their periphery; they're looking straight ahead to their objective.

As such, I don't think a firearm would be much of a deterrent in a situation like this. At best, I would hope to slow the folks who get the closest while I do my best to retreat.

Running away may not seem the most glamorous approach, but in the long run, it sure beats any alternative I can think of.

threegun · August 8, 2011, 07:37 AM

Quote:

only problem mete, many times it is too late when you realize the gravity of the situation. of course sometimes you can use this to your advantage but many times it is too late.

I agree. In a fair type environment with all the people and noise it is sometimes difficult to sense trouble 50 yards from you much less on the other side of the fair grounds or even parking lot. The Florida State fair has one entrance and exit, that I know of anyway.......haven't been in 20 years because of the violence and they won't let me carry legally while in the fair.

You could easily be blocked in and forced to hold ground IMO.

threegun · August 8, 2011, 08:06 AM

I think you guys are mistaking a real mob and a large group of thugs. The real mob may not respond to a single man shooting at them. The large group of thugs I am sure will respond positively (for us) when so attacked. Alone these guys are to afraid to attack but as a group they gain the confidence needed to pounce. In the face of death via someones gun I truly feel they will run while soiling their undies so bad that bleach wouldn't help.

If I am forced to defend myself and family it will be as fast and violent as I am capable of being.

meatgrinder42 · August 8, 2011, 08:20 AM

I would have just turned heel and ran. I served in the Marines and feel I could handle myself with one or two guys but riots are a whole new game. A gun wouldn't have done anything in the situation since they know you don't have enough for all of them and would soon overwhelm you at your first reload (if you made it that far, after all you cannot aim ahead and behind you).

The best action to be taken would be to turn heel and run away from the crowd. If you're in your vehicle lock the doors and roll up the windows. Insurance will cover the idiot scaring you to death on your roof.

mete · August 8, 2011, 09:19 AM

Threegun, if you don't want to spend your time carefully observing the growd then it's better to stay home .
I've never been thrilled to be in a large crowd even the most peaceful one.
For example there is a problem in the front of the crowd but the back of the crowd doesn't know it and continues forward crushing to death the ones in the front !!
Or a crowd moving forward and someone falls and that person is crushed to death.Do everything necessary to prevent falling down !!

threegun · August 8, 2011, 09:53 AM

Mete, I stay home alot. Crowds for me are limited to Sea World and Universal Studios these days. I don't even like the Mall on a busy weekend.

zxcvbob · August 8, 2011, 10:06 AM

Quote:

I would have just turned heel and ran. I served in the Marines and feel I could handle myself with one or two guys but riots are a whole new game. A gun wouldn't have done anything in the situation since they know you don't have enough for all of them and would soon overwhelm you at your first reload (if you made it that far, after all you cannot aim ahead and behind you).

The best action to be taken would be to turn heel and run away from the crowd. If you're in your vehicle lock the doors and roll up the windows. Insurance will cover the idiot scaring you to death on your roof.

The problem is, the only reason I would be at a place like that is because I'm with my family. I'm not going to abandon them if they are unable to make a mad dash for the exit. My job might even be to create a diversion so they can try to sneak away.

stephen426 · August 8, 2011, 11:02 AM

My reaction would largely depend on where I am at the time and who I am with. While I could probably out run a mob (unless they are chasing me specifically), my wife and baby certainly could not.

If I am near the exit of the fairground and I sense trouble, I force my way back in and seek shelter.

If I am in the thick of it when it starts, there isn't too much that can be done. I will certainly shoot anyone who approaches me in a threatening manner. I usually carry a small pocket pistol with 2 spares at best. That only give me 19 rounds tops. I guess I would shoot while moving towards safety. After I run out of bullets, I go to my knife and try to deter the punks into picking an easier target.

If I was already in the car, I will run over anyone that is trying to attack me. I would have the wife and baby lie down in the back in case anyone starts shooting. Anyone trying to break a window or get in would be shot.

I don't care what race they are or even how old they are. They are attacking people with potentially life threatening force (Especially kicks to the head when people are down).

While it is usually the best scenario to not be there in the first place, I find it sad that we have to avoid fun places because other people want to cause trouble.

skoro · August 8, 2011, 01:13 PM

This is a tough one. I think the best thing to do is to avoid the mob, if possible. Drawing and firing might only escalate the situation.

threegun · August 8, 2011, 03:22 PM

If a DGU is the last resort then not using it means death or grave bodily injury. So whether or not it escalates or diffuses the situation is irrelevant. Make what you have as effective as possible and hope the effect is positive.

cracked91 · August 8, 2011, 06:07 PM

Best option: Don't go to the fair.
Runner-up: RUN! Get your family and get out or hide.

I hate to say it but I can see why firearms are not permitted in some areas like this from a logical standpoint.

This mob hospitalized 7 people? Now what would have happened if one of the victims had been carrying a Glock? Very likely several dead. Possible including the shooter if he ran out of bullets.

IMHO of course.

zxcvbob · August 8, 2011, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Very likely several dead.

That's not necessarily a bad thing.

**Tom Servo** · August 8, 2011, 06:32 PM

Quote:

That's not necessarily a bad thing.

I have trouble understanding when taking life is a good thing.

Necessary? Perhaps. Good? No.

threegun · August 8, 2011, 07:01 PM

Quote:

I have trouble understanding when taking life is a good thing.

Necessary? Perhaps. Good? No.

Ted Bundy and Osama Bin Laden are examples of good dead people. Those bent on harming my family qualify as well.

Feeling good that a thug will never harm another innocent is not wrong IMO.

stephen426 · August 8, 2011, 07:02 PM

While it may be the "most logical", avoiding places I used to go to as a kid to have fun due to the possibilty of "something happening" just disgusts me. We are basically giving up our freedoms and rights to thugs and criminals. Does it mean I want to get into violent altercations and possibly have to shoot someone (or get shot)? Heck no!

I refuse to live life like a hermit and hole myself up for fear of the boogie man. I would guess most of us on here are like that since we decide to excercise our right to carry. When and if trouble does arise, we are the ones, we are prepared to deal with it.

Let me add something here... An employee of mine was at the movie theater in a busy shopping center here in Miami. A bunch of rowdy punks kept hicking his chair. He turned around and asked them to stop. I wasn't there so I'm not sure if more words were exchanged, but my employee and his brother were attacked by this band of punks and stabbed multiple times. They are lucky they survived. His brother had a collapsed lung. Do I avoid the theaters as a result of this incident? No. I make sure I carry and I try to avoid problems as much as possible!

threegun · August 8, 2011, 07:46 PM

I don't avoid the fair solely because of the thuggery. I can't legally carry there. I won't go into a higher than normal danger zone unarmed on purpose, ever.

I'm sure that sometime or somewhere in the past you have changed your plans due to the high potential of something happening. If you haven't you will eventually.

I once left a fishing spot because I felt I was about to be robbed. I was armed and onto the ploy yet decided to leave before it materialized. To this day I will never go there to fish because of the potential for trouble. I would like to just say the heck with it and go but it just isn't worth the risk no matter the fun.

Why subject yourself to the danger to make a point?

**OldMarksman** · August 8, 2011, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Posted by threegun: I don't avoid the fair solely because of the thuggery. I can't legally carry there. I won't go into a higher than normal danger zone unarmed on purpose, ever.

I'm sure that sometime or somewhere in the past you have changed your plans due to the high potential of something happening. If you haven't you will eventually.

I once left a fishing spot because I felt I was about to be robbed. I was armed and onto the ploy yet decided to leave before it materialized. To this day I will never go there to fish because of the potential for trouble. I would like to just say the heck with it and go but it just isn't worth the risk no matter the fun.

Why subject yourself to the danger to make a point??

Good thinking.

JACK308 · August 8, 2011, 08:18 PM

Its going to be INTERESTING when we in Wisconsin get are CCW permit.

Sefner · August 8, 2011, 08:46 PM

GSW's to the head from rifles have been known to cause extreme carnage and gore. See the JFK assassination. I listened to one interview with Massad Ayoob where the guy he was intervieweing stated that after he had placed two shots of 5.56 into the head of a badguy that "everything from the ears back was gone".

DougU · August 8, 2011, 10:02 PM

I don't understand this question. There are too many scenarios listed that do not all lead to the same focal point. All of us should first try to calmly make it out of the area and get police there as fast as possible. Every other option is a case of that not working. The Iowa state fair has been mentioned related to a similar incident last year. I believe the state and local police have addressed this with multiple times the presence of last year. I do not get the mentality of many of the posters. Evidently very few of you have experienced a mob situation or trained for one at all. Mobs and riots are strange animals that take on a life seperate from that of their individual constituents. The only way to solve these situations after they start are for the emergency response teams to engage them with a level of resistence/control/ firepower that they cannot hope to compete with.

cracked91 · August 9, 2011, 02:55 AM

Quote:

I don't avoid the fair solely because of the thuggery. I can't legally carry there. I won't go into a higher than normal danger zone unarmed on purpose, ever.

Well said.

baddarryl · August 9, 2011, 08:49 PM

Keep an eye out people. Often well publicized events like this will spur other copy cats. In NC you can protect yourself or another with deadly force, but you realistically can't carry concealed just about anywhere this sort of thing can occur. Paid events, events of assembly (broadly defined) and all the other usual banned areas. Our state legislature is hopefully loosening up some of those definitions as we speak. Funny thing about NC law is where you can't carry concealed, often you can open carry. Few obviously do that anymore and its complicated so it's mute. Scary stuff out there people.

redlinesrule · August 10, 2011, 02:38 PM

Very easy choice for me as it would be, without a doubt; > If attacked do you defend yourself and your family (with lethal force if necessary)?

C0untZer0 · August 10, 2011, 02:53 PM

A story today on Yahoo about mob violence

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/philadel...bouchon=602,il

It's interesting that they highlight the difference between violence in the U.S. and violence in the U.K now.

View Poll Results: What is the best strategy to deal with an unarmed mob like the milwaukee state fair?
Do you run and hide/escape and hope that you can find a place where you can be secure?	17	15.89%
Do you go to the assistance of a victim and attempt to stop the attack?	13	12.15%
Do you draw your weapon without pointing it at anyone?	4	3.74%
Do you calmly make your way out of the park and hope you aren't attacked?	26	24.30%
If attacked do you defend yourself and your family (with lethal force if necessary)?	93	86.92%
Do you take the beating and hope they don't kick you in the head too much and take your gun?	0	0%
Would your decision be affected if your race was the same as the mob or the victims?	4	3.74%
I don't think it happened, this thread is racist, and should be locked.	1	0.93%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 107. You may not vote on this poll

August 8, 2011, 08:20 AM	#55
meatgrinder42 Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2011 Location: Good Ol' Wisconsin Posts: 327	I would have just turned heel and ran. I served in the Marines and feel I could handle myself with one or two guys but riots are a whole new game. A gun wouldn't have done anything in the situation since they know you don't have enough for all of them and would soon overwhelm you at your first reload (if you made it that far, after all you cannot aim ahead and behind you). The best action to be taken would be to turn heel and run away from the crowd. If you're in your vehicle lock the doors and roll up the windows. Insurance will cover the idiot scaring you to death on your roof. __________________ When I die better bury me deep, two .45s layin' at my feet, An M16 across my chest, tell Chesty Puller I did my best

August 8, 2011, 09:19 AM	#56
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	Threegun, if you don't want to spend your time carefully observing the growd then it's better to stay home . I've never been thrilled to be in a large crowd even the most peaceful one. For example there is a problem in the front of the crowd but the back of the crowd doesn't know it and continues forward crushing to death the ones in the front !! Or a crowd moving forward and someone falls and that person is crushed to death.Do everything necessary to prevent falling down !! __________________ And Watson , bring your revolver !

August 8, 2011, 11:02 AM	#59
stephen426 Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Posts: 3,840	My reaction would largely depend on where I am at the time and who I am with. While I could probably out run a mob (unless they are chasing me specifically), my wife and baby certainly could not. If I am near the exit of the fairground and I sense trouble, I force my way back in and seek shelter. If I am in the thick of it when it starts, there isn't too much that can be done. I will certainly shoot anyone who approaches me in a threatening manner. I usually carry a small pocket pistol with 2 spares at best. That only give me 19 rounds tops. I guess I would shoot while moving towards safety. After I run out of bullets, I go to my knife and try to deter the punks into picking an easier target. If I was already in the car, I will run over anyone that is trying to attack me. I would have the wife and baby lie down in the back in case anyone starts shooting. Anyone trying to break a window or get in would be shot. I don't care what race they are or even how old they are. They are attacking people with potentially life threatening force (Especially kicks to the head when people are down). While it is usually the best scenario to not be there in the first place, I find it sad that we have to avoid fun places because other people want to cause trouble. __________________ The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!

August 8, 2011, 01:13 PM	#60
skoro Senior Member Join Date: April 30, 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 1,952	facing a violent mob This is a tough one. I think the best thing to do is to avoid the mob, if possible. Drawing and firing might only escalate the situation.

August 8, 2011, 08:06 AM	#54
threegun Junior member Join Date: March 1, 2006 Location: Tampa,Fl Posts: 4,000	I think you guys are mistaking a real mob and a large group of thugs. The real mob may not respond to a single man shooting at them. The large group of thugs I am sure will respond positively (for us) when so attacked. Alone these guys are to afraid to attack but as a group they gain the confidence needed to pounce. In the face of death via someones gun I truly feel they will run while soiling their undies so bad that bleach wouldn't help. If I am forced to defend myself and family it will be as fast and violent as I am capable of being.

August 8, 2011, 09:53 AM	#57
threegun Junior member Join Date: March 1, 2006 Location: Tampa,Fl Posts: 4,000	Mete, I stay home alot. Crowds for me are limited to Sea World and Universal Studios these days. I don't even like the Mall on a busy weekend.

August 8, 2011, 03:22 PM	#61
threegun Junior member Join Date: March 1, 2006 Location: Tampa,Fl Posts: 4,000	If a DGU is the last resort then not using it means death or grave bodily injury. So whether or not it escalates or diffuses the situation is irrelevant. Make what you have as effective as possible and hope the effect is positive. Last edited by threegun; August 8, 2011 at 03:32 PM.

August 8, 2011, 06:07 PM	#62
cracked91 Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Posts: 385	Best option: Don't go to the fair. Runner-up: RUN! Get your family and get out or hide. I hate to say it but I can see why firearms are not permitted in some areas like this from a logical standpoint. This mob hospitalized 7 people? Now what would have happened if one of the victims had been carrying a Glock? Very likely several dead. Possible including the shooter if he ran out of bullets. IMHO of course.

August 8, 2011, 07:02 PM	#66
stephen426 Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Posts: 3,840	While it may be the "most logical", avoiding places I used to go to as a kid to have fun due to the possibilty of "something happening" just disgusts me. We are basically giving up our freedoms and rights to thugs and criminals. Does it mean I want to get into violent altercations and possibly have to shoot someone (or get shot)? Heck no! I refuse to live life like a hermit and hole myself up for fear of the boogie man. I would guess most of us on here are like that since we decide to excercise our right to carry. When and if trouble does arise, we are the ones, we are prepared to deal with it. Let me add something here... An employee of mine was at the movie theater in a busy shopping center here in Miami. A bunch of rowdy punks kept hicking his chair. He turned around and asked them to stop. I wasn't there so I'm not sure if more words were exchanged, but my employee and his brother were attacked by this band of punks and stabbed multiple times. They are lucky they survived. His brother had a collapsed lung. Do I avoid the theaters as a result of this incident? No. I make sure I carry and I try to avoid problems as much as possible! __________________ The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency! Last edited by stephen426; August 8, 2011 at 07:23 PM.

August 8, 2011, 07:46 PM	#67
threegun Junior member Join Date: March 1, 2006 Location: Tampa,Fl Posts: 4,000	I don't avoid the fair solely because of the thuggery. I can't legally carry there. I won't go into a higher than normal danger zone unarmed on purpose, ever. I'm sure that sometime or somewhere in the past you have changed your plans due to the high potential of something happening. If you haven't you will eventually. I once left a fishing spot because I felt I was about to be robbed. I was armed and onto the ploy yet decided to leave before it materialized. To this day I will never go there to fish because of the potential for trouble. I would like to just say the heck with it and go but it just isn't worth the risk no matter the fun. Why subject yourself to the danger to make a point?

August 8, 2011, 08:18 PM	#69
JACK308 Junior member Join Date: July 10, 2011 Posts: 377	Its going to be INTERESTING when we in Wisconsin get are CCW permit.

August 8, 2011, 08:46 PM	#70
Sefner Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 769	GSW's to the head from rifles have been known to cause extreme carnage and gore. See the JFK assassination. I listened to one interview with Massad Ayoob where the guy he was intervieweing stated that after he had placed two shots of 5.56 into the head of a badguy that "everything from the ears back was gone". __________________ gtalk:renfes steamID: Sefner

August 8, 2011, 10:02 PM	#71
DougU Member Join Date: March 5, 2011 Posts: 90	I don't understand this question. There are too many scenarios listed that do not all lead to the same focal point. All of us should first try to calmly make it out of the area and get police there as fast as possible. Every other option is a case of that not working. The Iowa state fair has been mentioned related to a similar incident last year. I believe the state and local police have addressed this with multiple times the presence of last year. I do not get the mentality of many of the posters. Evidently very few of you have experienced a mob situation or trained for one at all. Mobs and riots are strange animals that take on a life seperate from that of their individual constituents. The only way to solve these situations after they start are for the emergency response teams to engage them with a level of resistence/control/ firepower that they cannot hope to compete with.

August 9, 2011, 08:49 PM	#73
baddarryl Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2011 Location: Cape Fear! Posts: 1,683	Keep an eye out people. Often well publicized events like this will spur other copy cats. In NC you can protect yourself or another with deadly force, but you realistically can't carry concealed just about anywhere this sort of thing can occur. Paid events, events of assembly (broadly defined) and all the other usual banned areas. Our state legislature is hopefully loosening up some of those definitions as we speak. Funny thing about NC law is where you can't carry concealed, often you can open carry. Few obviously do that anymore and its complicated so it's mute. Scary stuff out there people.

August 10, 2011, 02:38 PM	#74
redlinesrule Junior Member Join Date: August 10, 2011 Location: Live Free or Die - NH Posts: 3	Very easy choice for me as it would be, without a doubt; > If attacked do you defend yourself and your family (with lethal force if necessary)? __________________ *"I'll keep my guns, money, & freedom...you keep the change."*

August 10, 2011, 02:53 PM	#75
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	A story today on Yahoo about mob violence http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/philadel...bouchon=602,il It's interesting that they highlight the difference between violence in the U.S. and violence in the U.K now.