A little bit of everything, all in one.....

[AK103K]

Please bear in mind, guns do not cause spray and pray.

Correct. And this is even at the level of guns that truly can.

Would you deny that having a hi cap gun in the holster can affect mindset?

Possibly with an untrained, or under trained shooter, but not with a "reasonably" trained shooter.

Perhaps its the mindset and not the weapon thats being mis thought here, and causing the hand wringing.

Are you of the more cautious "shoot a couple and assess" school of thought? Or the more aggressive "shoot them to the ground" school of thought?

Since handguns are historically poor stoppers, the latter makes more sense to me. If the target is still in my sights, it keeps getting shot, until its not, or its down and not moving. If there are multiple opponents, then things may change a little as they begin to gain life, and what happens next may be a little different compared to just one, but everyones getting a dose and I plan on being a greedy pusher, not a cautious doctor.

Your opponent might only need one round, or he may need ten, whos to say? Reality is, it takes what it takes until its done, not what someone else says it should or why its not working or didnt work.

Theres no "spraying" going on, and it will be very deliberate and aggressive, and as focused as I can give it, and for as long as I can give it. If you "pray", you can do so later, if there is a later.

[smince]

the only thing you should be thinking about, when somebody is shooting at you, is your shooting.

Evidently he was, therefore he wasn't really thinking about a reload until doing his after-action assessment.

Or the more aggressive "shoot them to the ground" school of thought?

That's be me...

[mavracer]

you are making the common error of blaming a training problem on equipment.

Only because so often equipment is used in lieu of training.

Possibly with an untrained, or under trained shooter, but not with a "reasonably" trained shooter.

I believe the report at hand goes a long way to disprove that theory. I would say that officer Lang was more than "reasonably" trained and started the gunfight in "spray and pray" mode it wasn't until he realized that it wasn't working that he returned to his mindset of "front sight trigger"

Perhaps its the mindset and not the weapon thats being mis thought here, and causing the hand wringing.

I would agree with that.It would be my stance that a "revolver" mentality of making every shot count with a hi cap gun would make a dangerous man.

[AK103K]

I believe the report at hand goes a long way to disprove that theory. I would say that officer Lang was more than "reasonably" and started the gunfight in "spray and pray" mode it wasn't until he realized that it wasn't working that he returned to his mindset of "front sight trigger"

I dont think it would have mattered here if he had a revolver or a high cap, other than it could well have been different if he ran through the revolvers 6 or 7 shots at the onset.

Regardless how well you train, there is always going to reactionary shooting, like this, where you dont have a choice. He was reacting and shooting as the gun was coming up, which is a normal response at those distances. Im sure he'd have been stroking the revolvers trigger just as quick as he was pulling the autos trying to repy to the inital shots. The fact the P220 was hit, shows where his focus was, and its a common thing for the gun, hands, and forearms to be hit because of that, as the brain is focusing on the "actual threat", instead of the kill switch.

Id also be very surprised if they were just standing there, toe to toe, hammering away at each other. Im sure there was some moment going on, at least until he went prone. I think this is where a lot of misconceptions come from when the only thing shot at, are static targets while the shooter is also static. Just put the shooter in motion, and those wonderful, tight, and impressive little groups everyone likes to brag about, tend to open up a little, and miss altogether in many cases. Put both shooters in motion, and now the target isnt playing fair and where you think it should be, and the "groups" tend to get bigger and miss even more.

I would agree with that.It would be my stance that a "revolver" mentality of making every shot count with a hi cap gun would make a dangerous man.

Ideally, thats it right there. In reality, the high cap allows a little more leeway if things dont go as perfectly as they do on the range.

[Catfishman]

"One shot did massive nerve damage tracking up the BG's arm but didn't exit the arm to reenter the chest."

The officer believed this would have ended the shootout sooner.

This is a pretty good argument for the 10mm and against some of these overdesigned high-end hollowpoints.


This police officer did a great job. He was doing the "dirty work" that civilians don't have to. He chased down a suspect that he thought might be armed. The suspect spun around shooting at him. That's about as bad as it gets. But, he still won.

[Manco]

Reading about incidents like this is what drives me to keep training, even when it starts to feel repetitious. When the situation goes to crap (despite my best efforts to avoid confrontation and escalation), I'm pumped up on adrenaline, and with guns going off around and in front of me, I want my reaction to be as ingrained as instinct or even more so if that's possible: placing my shots deliberately and accurately on target until the threat has ended. This is something people have to actively work at, both physically and psychologically. Generally whatever has not become instinctual will be forgotten or at least delayed, and in dire situations that could be bad.

[pax]

Manco,

Excellent post. That's where I'm at, too.

It's astonishing, the number of people who don't believe they need training -- or who believe that the one 8-hour class they took six years ago (doing skills they haven't been able to practice since then) would be enough to see them through something like this.

Kathy

[kraigwy]

Awful lot of "second guessing" "Monday Morning Quarterbacking" going on here.

Point shooting is OK but more difficult with a 45. Aimed shooting is best, but when you only have 5, perhaps 10 seconds, the aimed accurate shot must be gotten off quickly.

Every shoot International Rapid Fire Pistol? You need your sights and you need speed. You have 5 targets, from the Ready, (arm with pistol pointed down at 45 degrees). The target turns you have 8 seconds to fire at each target once. Stage II, same thing only 6 seconds, Stage III, same but 4 seconds.

This is at 25 meters, the 10-X ring is about the same size as the 10 ring on the NRA PPC target.

This will humble you, but it'll teach you to shoot.

Now back on topic. Everyone should read "SHOOTING TO LIVE" by Captain's W.E. Fairbairn & E.A. Sykes. They were involved with the Shanghai Police when street gangs ruled the city. They addressed over 600 shootings that show what pistols (even 45 ACPs) will or will not do in actual shoot outs. It will scare you.

[AK103K]

A little force on force practice will also show you that at farther distances than you might think, you can easily hit a moving target, under stress, while you too are moving, and not necessarily be using your "sights".

But, like anything else, you do have to practice, and do so on a somewhat regular basis, to keep your skills up.

Target shooting, and "shooting to live", dont really have a lot in common. If youre only basing your skills on the first, I dont think youre likely to accomplish the second, unless maybe luck is on your side.

[kraigwy]

Target shooting, and "shooting to live", dont really have a lot in common

I disagree, you need both. Target shooting teaches mussel memory and fundamentals, you need need mussel memory and fundamentals in shooting to live.

[Seaman]

Am aware of two separate incidents where a woman was held hostage at knifepoint, in both cases a rescue shot was not taken, the distance about 10 to 15 feet. Both women were stabbed and died. Both perps were subsequently shot.

If someone is holding my daughter at knifepoint, I will take the shot. That's where I believe target shooting is critical to survival.

[AK103K]

I disagree, you need both.

No, youre right, I guess I didnt put it right.

What I was meaning to say was, if all you have to go on is target shooting, youre most likely to come up short in the other. But it seems a lot of people base their skill levels on what they do on a static range, just leisurely shooting tight little groups at a bullseye targets. To me, "target" shooting is the basics, and you should already have those down.

Beyond that, is where I think the "shooting to live" part comes in, and while the basics are very important, you need to bump things up some and move on to putting them to use in a more unconventional fashion compared to your usual range trips.

Along with all that, you have to get over the "little group" thing, and realize, a "good hit" is a good hit (and realistically, any hit is a good hit, some are just better than others), even if its not your usual group that you just shot.

Does that get it across better?

[AK103K]

Am aware of two separate incidents where a woman was held hostage at knifepoint, in both cases a rescue shot was not taken, the distance about 10 to 15 feet. Both women were stabbed and died. Both perps were subsequently shot.

If someone is holding my daughter at knifepoint, I will take the shot. That's where I believe target shooting is critical to survival.

I agree, and I'd "probably" take the shot too.

This is one "target" I practice all the time, and in a number of different ways. None start from your basic target stance, most form a holster or a SUL position, and often while moving. Distances usually from 3-5 yards out to 15 or so yards. I also include one or two other targets in the drill, but this one (on the left) is usually the "start".

On a lighter note, I told my wife I practice that target for her, which made her happy. Then I said she'll know when Im mad at her if I come home and the holes in the target are reversed. I swear, women have no sense of humor! Jeez!