A little bit of everything, all in one.....

[AK103K]

If you dont get American Handgunner, there is a digital edition here.....

http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/...gunner/AHMJ11/

Starts at page 32.


This issue, Massad Ayoob has another after action report in his "Ayoob Files". It covers a shoot out between a cop and a suspect, both armed with .45ACPs, distance was about 5-6 feet. Guns were already out for both. 23 rounds expended in 5-10 seconds. Both shot to slide lock. The bad guy got one hit out of 9, the cop, 7 of 14. His comment at the end about why he thought his first rounds were probably "misses" is interesting.

Now, I know this is only one instance of something going on, but it does cover a number of things all in one, point shooting vs aimed fire, lower cap vs higher cap, .45's not being the "sword of Todd", staying aggressively determined and focused, etc.

[mete]

I just watched a news program where they showed a video of a robbery attempt at a convenience store .
Lots of shots fired , no one hit , BGs got away. The store owner had been robbed before so he got a gun .Well he forgot about training - wildly firing usually over the top of the shelves where he couldn't even see the BGs .The BGs did the same ,The owner also had gun problems as he kept pulling the slide back.
A good lesson on what not to do. Get the best training you can find and practice often -it might save your life .

[AK103K]

What went on here shows even with training (at least for the cop), things dont always go as they do on a static range and the target is shooting back.

When you do see the film clips and reports like the one above, you have to start to wonder just how well off you really are with those mouse guns and 5 shot J frames, when things get energetic and the target is moving and shooting back. Especially if the other side, even if it is only one guy, has a high cap gun and can stay in the fight longer.

Working on "realistic" basics beyond traditional "bullseye" type shooting, as well as having a proper mindset, should be strongly considered, or I think youre just fooling yourself. Having some grappling and disarm/retention skills are also a big plus.

[gearhounds]

"What went on here shows even with training (at least for the cop), things dont always go as they do on a static range and the target is shooting back."

Yep, for sure. And- Practice=muscle memory; practice moving and shooting and shooting while moving to cover if it is available. If you don't practice moving and shooting, when you have to do it, you will mostly be making noise and wasting precious ammo. When cover isn't immediately available, moving beats standing static.

[bravo124]

The officer was in "Condition Black". Like AK103K said. Not only do you need the proper training, the proper mind set is a must. I suggest reading Colonel Grossman's book "ON Combat". It explains what might happen to you before, during, and after a deadly force confrontation. It certainly helped me win my shootout. I don't know if I'm supposed to be recommending a book. If not, I'm Sorry. But if it helps one of our members win a gunfight, then it's okay with me.

[mavracer]

When you do see the film clips and reports like the one above, you have to start to wonder just how well off you really are with those mouse guns and 5 shot J frames, when things get energetic and the target is moving and shooting back.

It certainly would reinforce mindset if you are going to carry a low capacity firearm. I see in the reports two glaring mistakes the first is not focusing on his own shooting and the second was not reloading when he saw his slide not locked back. playing the hindsight is 20/20 game if he makes these mistakes with a revolver he is probably in big trouble, but if you fix the mindset from the start using and start at shot 7 with him focusing on his shooting it would seam to me he'd have faired just as well if not better.

Working on "realistic" basics beyond traditional "bullseye" type shooting, as well as having a proper mindset, should be strongly considered, or I think youre just fooling yourself. Having some grappling and disarm/retention skills are also a big plus.

very true.But I'd add that having the foresight to not leave the shotgun in the car when pursuing gangbangers would be a good idea too.

[Seaman]

Officer Lang faced a worse case scenario...a home invader who was well armed and determined to fight.

Specialty defence ammo does not always penerate to vital organ (according to Officer Lang)...in 45, fmj is likely better---just my opinion.

Point shooting is OK but more difficult with a 45. Aimed shooting is best, but when you only have 5, perhaps 10 seconds, the aimed accurate shot must be gotten off quickly.

High capacity worked out this time. A revolver would have been problematic.

All in all a very good result and I am happy to know Officer Lang came out of his crisis in good shape.

Interesting and critical information in the article.

AK103K, thank you for this.

[Manco]

That's why I use heavy, deep-penetrating loads that aren't any faster than they need to be (velocity can sometimes work against penetration, and sometimes for--it depends). I also use my Airsoft pistol in simulating all kinds of chaotic scenarios at home, which makes me feel silly sometimes (sort of like the "Star Wars Kid" swinging his broomstick around ), but I think that it helps me prepare more realistically than I normally could at a typical shooting range. The result has been improved accuracy and speed when shooting from compromised positions and while on the move (I used to be off a lot when doing the latter, but hardly ever now), in addition to better point-shooting (gives me a faster first shot at bad-breath range since I can reliably hit the COM now). Hopefully I'll be able to combine the two forms of practice--Airsoft at home and real firearms at the range--if and when I ever need to.

[AK103K]

I see in the reports two glaring mistakes the first is not focusing on his own shooting and the second was not reloading when he saw his slide not locked back. playing the hindsight is 20/20 game if he makes these mistakes with a revolver he is probably in big trouble, but if you fix the mindset from the start using and start at shot 7 with him focusing on his shooting it would seam to me he'd have faired just as well if not better.

I dont think he had much choice here. He was just coming to a stop and within grabbing distance when the boy wheeled and fired. From that point on, it was all reaction while trying to catch up and get a hit anyway he could as fast as he could.

I dont know that he really had any chance to reload in the second or two lull before it started again. I think he had just realized his gun was still loaded when the boy started to get up again. I think he made the right choice to fire again, rather than to try and reload at that point. The final two rounds settled it and he did reload at that point. Keep in mind too, this whole thing start to finish was 5-10 seconds, depending on whos account. Thats about the time it took to read the last paragraph.

[Seaman]

Agreed.

After huffing and puffing chasing the perp down the cop had like, no time to reload. He was SWAT trained, shot his gun dry, and survived.

I used to think 5 rounds was enough in a streetfight. No more. The perp was slight of build, not a 300 lb gorilla, and he still took 8 hits, 7 to the body, and one to his Sig 220, all 45 ACP rounds. And the perp is still alive today...whoda thunk it?

This was a home invader, the kind of perp anyone might face. From here on out, I'll park my wheelgun & carry my hi-cap.

[MrDontPlay]

^or carry both

[mavracer]

I dont think he had much choice here. He was just coming to a stop and within grabbing distance when the boy wheeled and fired. From that point on, it was all reaction while trying to catch up and get a hit anyway he could as fast as he could.

I dont know that he really had any chance to reload in the second or two lull before it started again. I think he had just realized his gun was still loaded when the boy started to get up again. I think he made the right choice to fire again, rather than to try and reload at that point. The final two rounds settled it and he did reload at that point. Keep in mind too, this whole thing start to finish was 5-10 seconds, depending on whos account. Thats about the time it took to read the last paragraph.

Of course you would think that it supports your "needing a hi cap auto theory" but sincce we're playing monday morning quarterback here. I'd say it's pretty obvious that since he admitted none of the first 4 or 5 shots connected and he himself said if he'd had something to do different he'd have beared down and tried to take a head shot early on. That he most certainly had a choice.
As to the reload you have no way of knowing any better than I do. But that's why you practice reloadsand iMHO he should have reloaded cause A: perp did get up and B: thare were more perps in the area.

[gearhounds]

Huffing and puffing, being shot at, adrenaline, etc., it's doubtful the head was any easier to hit the the body (obviously), since we're MMQB'ing here. As statistics show, his hit ratio was pretty on par for cops in general. Thankfully, the perps was not.

I'll bet the officer here wasn't a thumbs forward shooter with sufficient muscle memory; if he was, he should have perforated the center of mass with 14 rounds. I'm no competition shooter, but I can dump a P220 mag at 3 yards in under 2 seconds into a pie pan after sprinting from the 50 yard line. MANY draw strokes and MANY trigger pulls daily. Muscle memory.

[AK103K]

Of course you would think that it supports your "needing a hi cap auto theory"...

My needing a hi cap is my personal choice. I prefer to have something that gives me more options overall, some dont. Couldnt care less if you carry less, thats for you to deal with if and when the need ever arises.

In this case, even after firing three more rounds than his opponent, he still had a couple left in the short interval when it was initially done, which is exactly where I'd prefer to be. Better that, than to be in slide lock or hitting empty chambers and now fumbling for a reload or second gun.

In something running in a different time frame I would agree with you on some things here. But in this case, I think he did the best he could with what he was dealt and he acted properly with the reload. I really dont think he had time to even consider it, let alone act on it here, before he had to continue. I believe I would have done the same thing he did. What ever is left in the gun right now, is better than trying to do a reload, and a full mag to late.

Again, the time frame here was a matter of seconds. In a more expanded time frame, the reload might have been more appropriate. In this case, I dont think he'd have even had time to grab a BUG, which is often faster than the reload itself. He still had a threat, and he still had a loaded gun, and he was in a much better position than his opponent, who was at slide lock.

He did reload immediately after his gun was dry too, so he was still on top of things if things did expand after the fact.

He also stayed focused on winning the fight, and did what was necessary to do so, even if his methods and techniques dont meet the approval of the internet experts.

[mavracer]

I think he did the best he could with what he was dealt and he acted properly with the reload. I really dont think he had time to even consider it, let alone act on it here, before he had to continue.

If it's all the same with you I'll use officer Lang's assessment over yours. He said he thought he'd have faired better if he'd have focussed on his shooting earlier. And I can't pull it up cause I'm on my phone but I thought he expressed regret that he didn't reload when the perp started to rise. This would lead me to believe he thought he had time.
Also this still doesn't negate the fact that this was a proactive gun fight which it seams IMHO some people seam to think a hi cap hangun is a good answer to this I'd rather have the forethought to leave the revolver in my holster and grab the shotgun from the cruiser.

[WVsig]

Also this still doesn't negate the fact that this was a proactive gun fight which it seams IMHO some people seam to think a hi cap hangun is a good answer to this I'd rather have the forethought to leave the revolver in my holster and grab the shotgun from the cruiser.

+1

[AK103K]

If it's all the same with you I'll use officer Lang's assessment over yours.

Knock yourself out.

He said he thought he'd have faired better if he'd have focussed on his shooting earlier.

Yes, he did.

but I thought he expressed regret that he didn't reload when the perp started to rise.

No mention of it in the article. Simply that he knew the gun was still loaded with "something". He reloaded at the end when his gun was empty.

some people seam to think a hi cap hangun is a good answer to this

And apparently, he did, and still does too, by his choices, the .45, and its subsequent replacements.

I'd rather have the forethought to leave the revolver in my holster and grab the shotgun from the cruiser.

Shoulda, coulda, woulda. You run what ya brung, no matter how much you wished you had something else thats back in the car.

Im sure if he thought it was appropriate, he would have drug a rifle or shotgun along, but he didnt.

[mavracer]

No mention of it in the article. Simply that he knew the gun was still loaded with "something".

I guess that it was between the assessment of the gun being still being loaded and the "I realized I was bleeding and tried to slow down my breathing" that give me the impression that he would have had time to reload.
Besides even if he didn't provided he had been practicing proper reload technique and had the mag in his weak hand before tripping the mag release he'd still be able to fire the two rounds. even if he does trip the mag release Glocks don't have a mag safety so he'd still have a loaded functioning gun.

[smince]

He said he thought he'd have faired better if he'd have focussed on his shooting earlier.

Monday morning quarterbacking himself. In different incidents I've been in, I can look back and see things I would have did differently, but during the stress of the event, those things were far from my mind.

With bullets flying towards him, the officer probably had other thoughts at that time as well.

[AK103K]

I guess that it was between the assessment of the gun being still being loaded and the "I realized I was bleeding and tried to slow down my breathing" that give me the impression that he would have had time to reload.

I think whats being missed here is the time frame of the entire incident, start to finish. 5-10 seconds. In that time, there were actually two parts, the first initial flurry, a slight pause, and then the second.

He seems to understand he needed to reload at some point, and in the second or two after the initial flurry while coming out of the tunnel, from his comments, it was probably starting to head into that direction, as his head and thoughts started to clear, but it started again before it got that far.


I know we need to practice, and should practice as realistically as we can (whats your current drill for reloading in under 2 seconds while rolling around on the ground with a threat 5 feet away? ), as often as we can, but just keep in mind, things like this are a living thing, and once started, go where they go as they unfold, and you start improvising and go along. Solving the problem isnt scripted and directed on this range.

This cop seemed to have decent training and mindset, and while he realized after the fact (the old woulda, coulda, shouda, and next time, maybe, thing again) he would have been better off getting on the sights sooner, the fact is, at that point, he was on the back side of the curve and his brain went into survival mode, and just reacted trying to catch up, and went from there.

[mavracer]

With bullets flying towards him, the officer probably had other thoughts at that time as well.

I'll paraphrase Jeff Cooper here the only thing you should be thinking about, when somebody is shooting at you, is your shooting.

[AK103K]

I'll paraphrase Jeff Cooper here the only thing you should be thinking about, when somebody is shooting at you, is your shooting.

Well, I would certainly hope its in the loop.

Along with a few other somewhat important things.

[MLeake]

... is why higher capacity is a bad thing.

Given that it meets other constraints (grip fits the hand comfortably, pistol isn't too bulky or heavy for concealed carry, etc), what is the downside to higher capacity?

Please bear in mind, guns do not cause spray and pray. Given a reasonably well trained, reasonably disciplined shooter, what advantage is there to having fewer bullets?

[mavracer]

Given that it meets other constraints (grip fits the hand comfortably, pistol isn't too bulky or heavy for concealed carry, etc), what is the downside to higher capacity?

Please bear in mind, guns do not cause spray and pray. Given a reasonably well trained, reasonably disciplined shooter, what advantage is there to having fewer bullets?

Would you deny that having a hi cap gun in the holster can affect mindset?

[MLeake]

... you are making the common error of blaming a training problem on equipment.