CCW with bp

gunner4391 · July 12, 2009, 10:55 AM

Ok, I'm in college but am not yet 21. I hate the feeling of going around unarmed at certain locations near my college and wish I could carry a gun. At home I have an 1862 Navy that i load and then unload about once a week because I am allowed to own a bp pistol at 18. Now, do you think that I should be allowed to get my CCW permit and carry my bp gun with me even though I'm not 21?

By the way, I'm not asking if it's legal because I already know that it isn't, but I wanna know your opinion on the matter.

CaptainCrossman · July 12, 2009, 11:47 AM

opinion doesn't amount to a hill of beans- if it's illegal to carry until age 21, then this a moot thread- don't carry until then, or you'll end up with a gun violation on your permanent record. Why keep unloading the gun, load it, put it away, and rely on it IN YOUR APARTMENT for self defense, and you're within the law. DON'T carry it around outside.

AirForceShooter · July 12, 2009, 11:54 AM

In Florida over 18 under 21.
No CCW for you, sorry.
You can keep the gun in your car and home.

Keep your powder dry.

AFS

Don H · July 12, 2009, 12:24 PM

I wasn't aware that Florida prohibited people over the age of 18 from buying a modern cartridge handgun. There isn't a federal law against it - you just can't legally buy the handgun from a FFL.

comn-cents · July 12, 2009, 12:47 PM

Yes there is a federal law saying that you have to be 21 to purchase not only a handgun but also handgun ammunition.

Don H · July 12, 2009, 01:56 PM

Federal law states that a FFL may not sell a handgun to anyone under the age of 21. There is no federal law that states that a person between the ages of 18 and 21 may not purchase a handgun from a private party.

gunner4391 · July 12, 2009, 09:50 PM

Ok, first of all, W.T.Sherman, again I wanted comments on if people in the forum thought that I should be allowed to. I would never carry if I wasnt allowed to because guns mean to much to me and I never want to lose them. Now as for the whole cartridge handgun issue, in the state of Florida if you're under the age of 21 you cannot buy a cartridge handgun, but you can buy the bullets because I have a '94 in 45 colt and I get my ammo from a local gun shop no problem and I've even gotten from Gander Mountain.

MacGille · July 12, 2009, 10:25 PM

Gunner, please get some training in shoot no shoot before you even think about carrying a gun. I can't think of any action that could have more of an effect on your life than shooting another human being. And, that is the ultimate goal of carrying a firearm i.e. defending yourself at the cost of another's life.

I have carried a gun since I was 21 ( I am 70). However, I am an ex policeman, a veteran of three branches of the military, and have had years of training in all sorts of situations.

You will have opportunity to learn more and experience more in life. Don't be in a hurry to put yourself in a position that can bring disaster to your life. Don't carry until you are legal, and get training before you carry.

Lecture ends.

mykeal · July 12, 2009, 10:34 PM

Interesting question.

We (society) have already explicitly stated that you are 'old enough' to operate a lethal weapon without adult supervision on a routine and daily basis, this in spite of overwhelming statistics that say your age group is the most deadly while doing so. I'm speaking, of course, about driving a car.

We do require specific training before granting this license, and testing as well, although there is some question about the effectiveness of such training and testing. It is required, nonetheless, and it certainly does do some good.

I guess that based on the evidence I'd have to conclude that you should be granted license to carry, but that a more comprehensive training course and test than that currently required for CCW be implemented first, one at least as long and in depth as driver training. And, we as a society would have to be willing to accept the increased amount of injury and even death that would inevitably occur (just as it does for vehicle accidents).

Or perhaps we should raise the age limit for driving...

tdmoparguy · July 12, 2009, 11:32 PM

gunner4391 I too am under 21 and also believe we should be able to defend ourselves. Especially with some of the freaks we got runnin around my neck of the woods.
P.S. Good luck getting a straight answer on here.

mykeal · July 13, 2009, 05:36 AM

He didn't ask for a straight answer; he asked for opinions, and that's what he's going to get.

gunner4391 · July 13, 2009, 02:40 PM

Ok, I'm with tdmoparguy, please give me a straight answer...do you think Some one over the age of 18 but under the age of 21 should be allowed to carry a concealed bp gun. Again, I DO NOT CARRY!!!! I am simply wondering if we should be allowed to, I feel that since I'm able to fight in a war and carry a gun daily I should be able to in everyday life. Also, I have had fine firearm training in the past...I do IDPA and SASS. Also, I believe that I have a better chance of getting into a situation where I would need a firearm to defend myself, what with a bunch of drunken idiots and all the seedy locations around colleges, at least a lot more then a lot of other people do.

Brian Pfleuger · July 13, 2009, 03:08 PM

I think someone over the age of 18 should be allowed to carry, period.

You can join the military and die for your country but you can't drink beer or carry a gun.... unless you're using that gun to kill people your government tells you to kill.... but then you go back home and everyone else your age can't carry a gun?

Stupid is what that is.

mykeal · July 13, 2009, 03:55 PM

It's not stupid at all. In the military you are highly trained and supervised. Operating a weapon under those circumstances is not unreasonable.

Allowing that same age group to act untrained (or at best very minimally trained) and unsupervised with a lethal weapon in a stressful situation is not a good idea at all, 'fair' or not.

Any generalization about an entire age group is bound to be inaccurate as there are certainly plenty of examples of behavior on both ends of the spectrum to illustrate any point of view. But our experience with driving (see my earlier post) says that the 18-21 year old group will have a higher incidence of poor decision making in situations where using a gun might come into play. That's simply because of less experience and less developed interpersonal skills - facts that are well documented.

Some 18 year olds are quite capable of carrying responsibly. Some are not. Some 50 year olds are quite capable of carrying responsibly. Some are not. The group of capable 18 year olds is, percentage wise, much less than the group of capable 50 year olds, simply because they are more emotional and less experienced at dealing with problems and stressful situations.

Personally, I'm not opposed to allowing 18 year olds to carry. BUT, and this is a big BUT, we have to be willing to accept a higher incidence of deadly mistakes being made as a result. Can we, with all the anti-gun forces spring loaded to take carry rights away from everyone, afford that?

Not an easy decision.

Wildalaska · July 13, 2009, 04:08 PM

Quote:

do you think Some one over the age of 18 but under the age of 21 should be allowed to carry a concealed bp gun

No. Statistically and common sense wise, modern under 21 year olds arent mature enough to be granted legal permission to carry.

They shouldnt be allowed to drive either except under limited circumstances

Wildandtrustmeiwasasbigafoolasanyother21yearoldAlaska ™

Youth is wasted on the young

tdmoparguy · July 13, 2009, 05:37 PM

In case you were wondering when I said good luck getting a straight answer I wasn't being a 20 year old smartass kid. I accidentally asked a similar question on Gunbroker.

http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=349591

mykeal · July 13, 2009, 05:56 PM

tdmoparguy - I don't see your point, either in your first post or this latest one.

On the gunbroker forum you got a straight, accurate answer with the very first post. You also got a bigmouth neanderthal who intentionally misread the question so he could babble. Why do you take the latter example to be typical and suggest that a straight answer was not to be forthcoming? Why not instead take the first answer to your question and ignore the babble as irrelevant.

simonkenton · July 13, 2009, 07:19 PM

Now, do you think that I should be allowed to get my CCW permit and carry my bp gun with me even though I'm not 21?

By the way, I'm not asking if it's legal because I already know that it isn't, but I wanna know your opinion on the matter.

Without a doubt, you ought to be able to carry concealed, if you are 18 or over.

Don H · July 13, 2009, 07:39 PM

States such as Maine that allow 18 year-olds to have CCW permits don't seem to be having any problems as a result of their policy. If someone here can demonstrate with verifiable data that a permitted person under the age of 21 is less safe with their firearm than someone over the age of 21 is, I'd certainly like to see that evidence. Lacking that evidence, the objections are just more "blood in the streets" hysteria, with no basis in fact, that is no different than what the antis babble on a regular basis.

Wildalaska · July 13, 2009, 07:59 PM

Quote:

If someone here can demonstrate with verifiable data that a permitted person under the age of 21 is less safe with their firearm than someone over the age of 21 is, I'd certainly like to see that evidenc

e.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/vagetab.htm

Analyze away, if any of you think that young males ARE NOT associated with higher levels of aggression, less impulse control, less rationality, higher levels of risk taking, etc, I can suggest some literature on the subject for you.

And yes there are some responsible 19 year olds, but thats not the point is it.....

WildteenagewastelandAlaska ™

w_houle · July 13, 2009, 08:13 PM

Graduated high school at 17, joined the army. Stationed at Ft. Drum, NY. and I couldn't even get a drivers license without my parents permission let alone be able to buy firearms (or smoke and drink). Yes, having one standard for becoming an adult would be wonderful... But that's for another forum.
(Disclamer: Don't break the law

)
Not a particularly practical form of self defense. I'm guessing you mean 1861 Navy. I had one but wasn't impressed with the performance of the .36 cal. If you find yourself in a situation where this had to be pressed into service then the best I can suggest is to get very familiar with it. A conversion cylinder would be my best suggestion for it.
Edit: or 1862 police?

ninjatoth · July 13, 2009, 08:28 PM

Yeah,21 to buy handgun ammo and 21 to buy a handgun from a FFL here in Michigan.18 from a private seller.Walmart always asks now when you buy .22 ammo if it is for a handgun or rifle,how dumb.I get asked that alot cause I look 19 even though i'm 29.

Don H · July 13, 2009, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Quote:
If someone here can demonstrate with verifiable data that a permitted person under the age of 21 is less safe with their firearm than someone over the age of 21 is, I'd certainly like to see that evidenc

e.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/vagetab.htm

Analyze away, if any of you think that young males ARE NOT associated with higher levels of aggression, less impulse control, less rationality, higher levels of risk taking, etc, I can suggest some literature on the subject for you.

And yes there are some responsible 19 year olds, but thats not the point is it.....

WildteenagewastelandAlaska ™

Actually, the question relates to young people, male and female, who qualify for permits at age 18, not the general male populace in that age group. There is a fair amount of data available that depicts CCW permit holders, as a group, to be more law-abiding than the general populace. Is there any evidence that indicates that this does not hold true for those who are granted a permit at age 18?

Wildalaska · July 13, 2009, 10:02 PM

Quote:

There is a fair amount of data available that depicts CCW permit holders, as a group, to be more law-abiding than the general populace.

Such a statistical correlation would be farcical

Unlike the correlation between youth and violence

WildtryagainAlaska TM

gunner4391 · July 14, 2009, 08:41 PM

Wildalaska, you have shown me a table that shows the last 20 years or so of history of violence in different age groups...why don't you go back and look around a little and notice that although the 20-24 age group has less violence in many of the years, there are some where they have more, and there are many where the diffenece between the two groups is very minor. Also, there is the whole process and test and payment to get your ccw, so how many of us "unresponsible teens" do you think would actually take time out of our lives to go to the classes and take the exam? Honestly, most of those crimes were most likely committed by teens that would never go through the process to get their ccw. If youre a law abiding citizen that is over the age of 18 and you want to carry then you will go get your permit and you most likely know the risks of using your firearm against someone, but if you're not a law abiding citizen then you're going to get a gun off of a crack dealer off the side of the road and mug a law abiding teen who isn't armed because he is following the law.

Also, to whoever was talking about the black powder not being effective, I don't think that persperation is going to be that big of a factor and I'd use a wells fargo model 1849 with a modified 3" barrel...not the best caliber but better then a 4" pocket knife.

July 12, 2009, 10:55 AM	#1
gunner4391 Member Join Date: July 6, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 62	CCW with bp Ok, I'm in college but am not yet 21. I hate the feeling of going around unarmed at certain locations near my college and wish I could carry a gun. At home I have an 1862 Navy that i load and then unload about once a week because I am allowed to own a bp pistol at 18. Now, do you think that I should be allowed to get my CCW permit and carry my bp gun with me even though I'm not 21? By the way, I'm not asking if it's legal because I already know that it isn't, but I wanna know your opinion on the matter.

July 12, 2009, 12:24 PM	#4
Don H Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2000 Location: SLC,Utah Posts: 2,704	I wasn't aware that Florida prohibited people over the age of 18 from buying a modern cartridge handgun. There isn't a federal law against it - you just can't legally buy the handgun from a FFL. __________________ Don http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/forum/

July 12, 2009, 12:47 PM	#5
comn-cents Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2008 Location: Pac.N.W. Posts: 1,804	Yes there is a federal law saying that you have to be 21 to purchase not only a handgun but also handgun ammunition. __________________ Be Smarter Than A Bore-Snake!

July 12, 2009, 01:56 PM	#6
Don H Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2000 Location: SLC,Utah Posts: 2,704	Federal law states that a FFL may not sell a handgun to anyone under the age of 21. There is no federal law that states that a person between the ages of 18 and 21 may not purchase a handgun from a private party. __________________ Don http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/forum/

July 12, 2009, 10:25 PM	#8
MacGille Senior Member Join Date: July 6, 2006 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 976	Gunner, please get some training in shoot no shoot before you even think about carrying a gun. I can't think of any action that could have more of an effect on your life than shooting another human being. And, that is the ultimate goal of carrying a firearm i.e. defending yourself at the cost of another's life. I have carried a gun since I was 21 ( I am 70). However, I am an ex policeman, a veteran of three branches of the military, and have had years of training in all sorts of situations. You will have opportunity to learn more and experience more in life. Don't be in a hurry to put yourself in a position that can bring disaster to your life. Don't carry until you are legal, and get training before you carry. Lecture ends. __________________ If ye love wealth better than Liberty, the tranquillity of servitude than the animated contest of Freedom, go from us in Peace. We ask not your counsel or Arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen. --Samuel Adams--<*ixoye><

July 12, 2009, 11:47 AM	#2
CaptainCrossman Junior member Join Date: April 2, 2009 Posts: 381	opinion doesn't amount to a hill of beans- if it's illegal to carry until age 21, then this a moot thread- don't carry until then, or you'll end up with a gun violation on your permanent record. Why keep unloading the gun, load it, put it away, and rely on it IN YOUR APARTMENT for self defense, and you're within the law. DON'T carry it around outside.

July 12, 2009, 11:54 AM	#3
AirForceShooter Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2005 Location: Sarasota (sort of) Florida Posts: 1,296	In Florida over 18 under 21. No CCW for you, sorry. You can keep the gun in your car and home. Keep your powder dry. AFS

July 12, 2009, 09:50 PM	#7
gunner4391 Member Join Date: July 6, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 62	Ok, first of all, W.T.Sherman, again I wanted comments on if people in the forum thought that I should be allowed to. I would never carry if I wasnt allowed to because guns mean to much to me and I never want to lose them. Now as for the whole cartridge handgun issue, in the state of Florida if you're under the age of 21 you cannot buy a cartridge handgun, but you can buy the bullets because I have a '94 in 45 colt and I get my ammo from a local gun shop no problem and I've even gotten from Gander Mountain.

July 12, 2009, 10:34 PM	#9
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	Interesting question. We (society) have already explicitly stated that you are 'old enough' to operate a lethal weapon without adult supervision on a routine and daily basis, this in spite of overwhelming statistics that say your age group is the most deadly while doing so. I'm speaking, of course, about driving a car. We do require specific training before granting this license, and testing as well, although there is some question about the effectiveness of such training and testing. It is required, nonetheless, and it certainly does do some good. I guess that based on the evidence I'd have to conclude that you should be granted license to carry, but that a more comprehensive training course and test than that currently required for CCW be implemented first, one at least as long and in depth as driver training. And, we as a society would have to be willing to accept the increased amount of injury and even death that would inevitably occur (just as it does for vehicle accidents). Or perhaps we should raise the age limit for driving...

July 12, 2009, 11:32 PM	#10
tdmoparguy Member Join Date: March 29, 2009 Location: Okmulgee,OK Posts: 70	gunner4391 I too am under 21 and also believe we should be able to defend ourselves. Especially with some of the freaks we got runnin around my neck of the woods. P.S. Good luck getting a straight answer on here.

July 13, 2009, 05:36 AM	#11
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	He didn't ask for a straight answer; he asked for opinions, and that's what he's going to get.

July 13, 2009, 02:40 PM	#12
gunner4391 Member Join Date: July 6, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 62	Ok, I'm with tdmoparguy, please give me a straight answer...do you think Some one over the age of 18 but under the age of 21 should be allowed to carry a concealed bp gun. Again, I DO NOT CARRY!!!! I am simply wondering if we should be allowed to, I feel that since I'm able to fight in a war and carry a gun daily I should be able to in everyday life. Also, I have had fine firearm training in the past...I do IDPA and SASS. Also, I believe that I have a better chance of getting into a situation where I would need a firearm to defend myself, what with a bunch of drunken idiots and all the seedy locations around colleges, at least a lot more then a lot of other people do.

July 13, 2009, 03:08 PM	#13
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	I think someone over the age of 18 should be allowed to carry, period. You can join the military and die for your country but you can't drink beer or carry a gun.... unless you're using that gun to kill people your government tells you to kill.... but then you go back home and everyone else your age can't carry a gun? Stupid is what that is. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

July 13, 2009, 03:55 PM	#14
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	It's not stupid at all. In the military you are highly trained and supervised. Operating a weapon under those circumstances is not unreasonable. Allowing that same age group to act untrained (or at best very minimally trained) and unsupervised with a lethal weapon in a stressful situation is not a good idea at all, 'fair' or not. Any generalization about an entire age group is bound to be inaccurate as there are certainly plenty of examples of behavior on both ends of the spectrum to illustrate any point of view. But our experience with driving (see my earlier post) says that the 18-21 year old group will have a higher incidence of poor decision making in situations where using a gun might come into play. That's simply because of less experience and less developed interpersonal skills - facts that are well documented. Some 18 year olds are quite capable of carrying responsibly. Some are not. Some 50 year olds are quite capable of carrying responsibly. Some are not. The group of capable 18 year olds is, percentage wise, much less than the group of capable 50 year olds, simply because they are more emotional and less experienced at dealing with problems and stressful situations. Personally, I'm not opposed to allowing 18 year olds to carry. BUT, and this is a big BUT, we have to be willing to accept a higher incidence of deadly mistakes being made as a result. Can we, with all the anti-gun forces spring loaded to take carry rights away from everyone, afford that? Not an easy decision.

July 13, 2009, 05:37 PM	#16
tdmoparguy Member Join Date: March 29, 2009 Location: Okmulgee,OK Posts: 70	In case you were wondering when I said good luck getting a straight answer I wasn't being a 20 year old smartass kid. I accidentally asked a similar question on Gunbroker. http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=349591

July 13, 2009, 05:56 PM	#17
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	tdmoparguy - I don't see your point, either in your first post or this latest one. On the gunbroker forum you got a straight, accurate answer with the very first post. You also got a bigmouth neanderthal who intentionally misread the question so he could babble. Why do you take the latter example to be typical and suggest that a straight answer was not to be forthcoming? Why not instead take the first answer to your question and ignore the babble as irrelevant.

July 13, 2009, 07:19 PM	#18
simonkenton Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2008 Posts: 891	Now, do you think that I should be allowed to get my CCW permit and carry my bp gun with me even though I'm not 21? By the way, I'm not asking if it's legal because I already know that it isn't, but I wanna know your opinion on the matter. Without a doubt, you ought to be able to carry concealed, if you are 18 or over.

July 13, 2009, 07:39 PM	#19
Don H Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2000 Location: SLC,Utah Posts: 2,704	States such as Maine that allow 18 year-olds to have CCW permits don't seem to be having any problems as a result of their policy. If someone here can demonstrate with verifiable data that a permitted person under the age of 21 is less safe with their firearm than someone over the age of 21 is, I'd certainly like to see that evidence. Lacking that evidence, the objections are just more "blood in the streets" hysteria, with no basis in fact, that is no different than what the antis babble on a regular basis. __________________ Don http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/forum/

July 13, 2009, 08:13 PM	#21
w_houle Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2007 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 1,391	Graduated high school at 17, joined the army. Stationed at Ft. Drum, NY. and I couldn't even get a drivers license without my parents permission let alone be able to buy firearms (or smoke and drink). Yes, having one standard for becoming an adult would be wonderful... But that's for another forum. (Disclamer: Don't break the law) Not a particularly practical form of self defense. I'm guessing you mean 1861 Navy. I had one but wasn't impressed with the performance of the .36 cal. If you find yourself in a situation where this had to be pressed into service then the best I can suggest is to get very familiar with it. A conversion cylinder would be my best suggestion for it. Edit: or 1862 police? __________________ How could you have a slogan like "freedom is slavery" when the concept of freedom has been abolished? Last edited by w_houle; July 13, 2009 at 08:19 PM.

July 13, 2009, 08:28 PM	#22
ninjatoth Junior member Join Date: March 21, 2009 Location: sanford,mi Posts: 590	Yeah,21 to buy handgun ammo and 21 to buy a handgun from a FFL here in Michigan.18 from a private seller.Walmart always asks now when you buy .22 ammo if it is for a handgun or rifle,how dumb.I get asked that alot cause I look 19 even though i'm 29.

July 14, 2009, 08:41 PM	#25
gunner4391 Member Join Date: July 6, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 62	Wildalaska, you have shown me a table that shows the last 20 years or so of history of violence in different age groups...why don't you go back and look around a little and notice that although the 20-24 age group has less violence in many of the years, there are some where they have more, and there are many where the diffenece between the two groups is very minor. Also, there is the whole process and test and payment to get your ccw, so how many of us "unresponsible teens" do you think would actually take time out of our lives to go to the classes and take the exam? Honestly, most of those crimes were most likely committed by teens that would never go through the process to get their ccw. If youre a law abiding citizen that is over the age of 18 and you want to carry then you will go get your permit and you most likely know the risks of using your firearm against someone, but if you're not a law abiding citizen then you're going to get a gun off of a crack dealer off the side of the road and mug a law abiding teen who isn't armed because he is following the law. Also, to whoever was talking about the black powder not being effective, I don't think that persperation is going to be that big of a factor and I'd use a wells fargo model 1849 with a modified 3" barrel...not the best caliber but better then a 4" pocket knife.