Rules Enforcement Left to Mods

Brian Pfleuger · February 2, 2009, 04:06 PM

I've seen several instances of rather inappropriate harshness directed by "veteran" members toward new members who violate forum rules. Most often rule 4. While I agree that improper punctuation, spelling and capitalization make for a difficult read I do not agree that it is or should be fellow members prerogative to openly chastise and embarrass new posters. New members who perceive that they are attacked for "i" instead of "I" are not likely to remain on board and become respected long term members. Correction of such relatively modest violations should be left to the mods and, even then, should be undertaken via PM, IMO.

I propose Rule #6:

TFL members are not grammar patrol. Enforcement of the forum rules is left entirely to the moderators. Any post that is in violation of any rules should be reported to the moderators using the "report post" button.

(Or something along those lines.)

goodspeed(TPF) · February 2, 2009, 04:17 PM

.yletelpmoc eerga I

whut hee sed

**Mike Irwin** · February 2, 2009, 04:55 PM

If you see such an instance that it would tend to violated our existing forum rules, report the post to the moderator staff using this icon:

That sends a note to all moderators and admins.

Al Norris · February 2, 2009, 06:15 PM

On the other hand, if you can politely let the offender know that their spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc. makes it hard to read, and hard to read posts are often ignored... I see nothing wrong in letting the general members self police the board.

We had a big public discussion (275 posts) about this rule change, back in early 2006, IIRC.... Yup. here it is.

Read at least the first post of that thread to get an idea of what the rule is about.

goodspeed(TPF) · February 2, 2009, 06:23 PM

Dats gud stuffs their. Eye red itt awl. I recm.... reku.... recku.... think dat it shud bee followed to thuh letters. An innie won inn violashun shud bee banneded.

DiscoRacing · February 2, 2009, 06:24 PM

*shouldnt have ducked phonics class to hang with this

hoytinak · February 2, 2009, 06:33 PM

Antipitas, that's a good thread in that link. It'd probably be a good idea to (maybe edit it?) and re-sticky it.

Al Norris · February 2, 2009, 06:51 PM

Perhaps. But that's over and done with. I can link to it anytime I need the reference (to point someone else to it).

**Mike Irwin** · February 3, 2009, 11:03 AM

Wow. I'd forgotten all about that thread.

goodspeed(TPF) · February 3, 2009, 11:11 AM

Happens when you get old.

Brian Pfleuger · February 3, 2009, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Lucibella

Once it rises to the level of rendering a post unreadable or embarrassing to the TFL community, we will have to step in....and we hope our Members will support that effort by working with us behind the scenes.

Obviously I can't read that entire thread but I think this sentence shows my intent. Public chastisement of members by members does nothing to enhance either the image of TFL or gun-owners as a whole. It also does nothing to encourage those members to change their style and continue as productive posters. I believe the only ways to be certain that the members report the inappropriate posts with out appearing to attack the poster is by either making an official rule change or by creating a sticky thread with an advisory.

DiscoRacing · February 3, 2009, 11:31 AM

Stongly Agree.... been there..

**Mal H** · February 3, 2009, 11:49 AM

I think what peetzakilla suggests has merit. He's not saying enhance or sticky the English language protocol guidelines.

He is suggesting that we let it be known, either in a rules file paragraph or in a sticky thread, that it would be best to leave the enforcement of the existing rule to the moderators - let us be the "heavies" if you will. If most members would do that, it would save quite a bit of online bickering, embarrassment and perhaps even a banned member or two.

Brian Pfleuger · February 3, 2009, 11:57 AM

Quote:

If most members would do that, it would save quite a bit of online bickering, embarrassment and perhaps even a banned member or two.

Yes Sir. That's exactly what I'm saying.

**Shane Tuttle** · February 4, 2009, 12:32 AM

My own opinion: If a person is lazy or downright self centered enough to post an incoherent statement publicly, then one should be willing to be criticized in public.

Case in point: People that make the excuse that they're using their blackberry and "can't" use correct punctuation is just inviting ridicule. It reflects poorly on Rich's standards of intelligent discussion on the boards.

I find it a total lack of respect and I personally don't have a problem at all letting the member know publicly. I don't call him an idiot, but I don't beat around the bush either pointing out the garbled mess.

Most offenders seem to turn the focus away from their own transgression and make a big stink about their feelings being hurt. Reminds me of the perfect example about the dying culture of being responsible for ones' actions.

I personally vote for continuing to allow the members to police ourselves on the small stuff and report the bigger stuff to staff. Let the citizens police themselves on the minor stuff...Call the Cops when there's real problems.

Our membership numbers have been growing at an alarming rate as of late. I don't see how one can expect the staff to handle every single minor infraction without the help of members.

Look at it this way, peetzakilla. Would be criminals are put on notice by citizens of a shall-issue state and are in a sense given public warning. We're probably armed, so I wouldn't try to rob me if I were you. No need to call the cops because the citizen has the right to help keep law and order.

Mal, if that's what you want, by all means I'll abide by what the staff wants. I can set my personal opinion aside in order to follow the rules (well, for the MOST part

). I'm predicting an even heavier load on the staff than what is already in place, though.

alloy · February 4, 2009, 07:11 AM

I try not to worry because my own grammer and spelling can be on the verge...but what happened to paragraphs and indenting the first word of each one? Now its all about typing a line per thought and then skipping a line. Maybe the bullet list is becoming the acceptable post format. Quotation marks around a word are used to show it means something "other" than what it means, when it really "means" the exact same thing? Chat room, real time, conversation is different than typing a thesis, and some posts fall somewhere in between. The chance of me calling a hall monitor regarding grammer...is slim to none. It's the net, and I'm Charles Barkley.

Creature · February 4, 2009, 07:24 AM

I disagree.

This board is populated by a a majority of members who actually give a hoot about the board and how it actually looks to new viewers. The written word is our only avenue of expression. Do it using standard English as best you are able.

As a new viewer, if I saw that this board is rife with poor grammar, spelling and punctuation...and if I saw that the members do not care enough to self-police themselves, I would be very hard pressed to be confident in the credibility of the board as a whole.

Now if someone goes too far in their chastisement of the offender, then yes, the Mods should step in with corrective action as they see fit. But I believe that we as members can and should do much to ensure that this forum remains readable in the true sense of the word.

goodspeed(TPF) · February 4, 2009, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Most offenders seem to turn the focus away from their own transgression and make a big stink about their feelings being hurt. Reminds me of the perfect example about the dying culture of being responsible for ones' actions.

Well said. Agreed.

alloy · February 4, 2009, 08:00 AM

Disagreement is good, but dont allofwildalaskaspostsfallunderthebadgrammerviolations, and what would Shakespeare have thought of needing a smilie to denote sarcasm?
So....I disagree, i think the mods are doing fine work as it is, policing the new gun ban threads, two per day.

P97 · February 4, 2009, 08:07 AM

Quote:

He is suggesting that we let it be known, either in a rules file paragraph or in a sticky thread, that it would be best to leave the enforcement of the existing rule to the moderators - let us be the "heavies" if you will. If most members would do that, it would save quite a bit of online bickering, embarrassment and perhaps even a banned member or two.

I am the Founder of two Bulletin Boards. This is a very wise statement. To do otherwise is asking for a lot of problems.

grymster2007 · February 4, 2009, 10:38 AM

Quote:

it would be best to leave the enforcement of the existing rule to the moderators - let us be the "heavies" if you will. If most members would do that, it would save quite a bit of online bickering, embarrassment and perhaps even a banned member or two.

I don't bicker with them, but when a post is essentially unintelligible, I don't mind pointing it out. If I can get by on my meager education, that doesn't leave much in the way of excuses for others.

Brian Pfleuger · February 4, 2009, 12:15 PM

Quote:

This board is populated by a a majority of members who actually give a hoot about the board and how it actually looks to new viewers. The written word is our only avenue of expression. Do it using standard English as best you are able.

I completely agree. The question is "Who is best to enforce those standards?" I believe it is best for the board and for new members to have these issues addressed:
1)By mods
2)Privately

Somebody comes on and posts:

hiijustgotanewglock19andimhavingtroublewiththemagsfallingonthefloordoesanybodyknowwhatcouldcausethis

and then we get two pages of fighting between them and veteran posters because of grammar and punctuation. Why? Who is benefiting by that exchange?

Not to mention that most, nearly all, attempts at "correction" violate rules #2 and #3, which is pretty ironic:
2) Language that would be inappropriate in the polite company of strangers is quite unwelcome here.
3) No spamming, trolling, flaming or other personal attacks, be they acrimonious or veiled in humor.

i.e.- What are you a freakin' moron? Don't you know where the space bar is? Damn dude, get a clue!

Quote:

Most offenders seem to turn the focus away from their own transgression and make a big stink about their feelings being hurt.

Yep, and what is the benefit of hurting their feelings? None. The grammar should be corrected and they should be banned if they refuse to comply. Public humiliation benefits neither them nor us.

Quote:

Disagreement is good, but dont allofwildalaskaspostsfallunderthebadgrammerviolations, and what would Shakespeare have thought of needing a smilie to denote sarcasm?

There is the letter of the law and then the spirit of the law.

Quote:

I don't mind pointing it out.

I don't "mind" pointing it out either.

If we care about this board, and our (gun owners) image that it projects then the thought process should not be "Can I call this guy out for this...?" but rather "How will my comment make a positive contribution to this thread and this forum?" Hammering someone publicly because their VERY FIRST POST doesn't meet the standards of english grammar is not beneficial to ANYBODY. (anybody,anyone? I don't know, grammar is not my specialty

)

nate45 · February 4, 2009, 12:59 PM

"Bud spelers of the word unight, and remumber: cabron is most abundent elemant in hte youknwverse"

Wildalaska · February 4, 2009, 01:03 PM

Quote:

hiijustgotanewglock19andimhavingtroublewiththemagsfallingonthefloordoesanybodyknowwhatcouldcausethis

WildheyipostlikethatallthetimeAlaska ™

grymster2007 · February 4, 2009, 02:05 PM

Quote:

hiijustgotanewglock19andimhavingtroublewiththemagsfallingonthefloordoesanybodyknowwhatcouldcausethis

I've read WA's sig line enough times that the above actually flows well and does not offend me.... I'm starting to think austere spacebar usage actually helps me read faster.

February 2, 2009, 04:06 PM	#1
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Rules Enforcement Left to Mods I've seen several instances of rather inappropriate harshness directed by "veteran" members toward new members who violate forum rules. Most often rule 4. While I agree that improper punctuation, spelling and capitalization make for a difficult read I do not agree that it is or should be fellow members prerogative to openly chastise and embarrass new posters. New members who perceive that they are attacked for "i" instead of "I" are not likely to remain on board and become respected long term members. Correction of such relatively modest violations should be left to the mods and, even then, should be undertaken via PM, IMO. I propose Rule #6: TFL members are not grammar patrol. Enforcement of the forum rules is left entirely to the moderators. Any post that is in violation of any rules should be reported to the moderators using the "report post" button. (Or something along those lines.) __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

February 2, 2009, 06:23 PM	#5
goodspeed(TPF) Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2009 Location: WI Posts: 1,162	Dats gud stuffs their. Eye red itt awl. I recm.... reku.... recku.... think dat it shud bee followed to thuh letters. An innie won inn violashun shud bee banneded. __________________ It's a trick. Get an axe. http://www.thepiratefleet.com/index.shtml

February 3, 2009, 11:11 AM	#10
goodspeed(TPF) Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2009 Location: WI Posts: 1,162	Happens when you get old. __________________ It's a trick. Get an axe. http://www.thepiratefleet.com/index.shtml

February 4, 2009, 12:32 AM	#15
Shane Tuttle Staff Join Date: November 28, 2005 Location: Montana Posts: 9,443	My own opinion: If a person is lazy or downright self centered enough to post an incoherent statement publicly, then one should be willing to be criticized in public. Case in point: People that make the excuse that they're using their blackberry and "can't" use correct punctuation is just inviting ridicule. It reflects poorly on Rich's standards of intelligent discussion on the boards. I find it a total lack of respect and I personally don't have a problem at all letting the member know publicly. I don't call him an idiot, but I don't beat around the bush either pointing out the garbled mess. Most offenders seem to turn the focus away from their own transgression and make a big stink about their feelings being hurt. Reminds me of the perfect example about the dying culture of being responsible for ones' actions. I personally vote for continuing to allow the members to police ourselves on the small stuff and report the bigger stuff to staff. Let the citizens police themselves on the minor stuff...Call the Cops when there's real problems. Our membership numbers have been growing at an alarming rate as of late. I don't see how one can expect the staff to handle every single minor infraction without the help of members. Look at it this way, peetzakilla. Would be criminals are put on notice by citizens of a shall-issue state and are in a sense given public warning. We're probably armed, so I wouldn't try to rob me if I were you. No need to call the cops because the citizen has the right to help keep law and order. Mal, if that's what you want, by all means I'll abide by what the staff wants. I can set my personal opinion aside in order to follow the rules (well, for the MOST part). I'm predicting an even heavier load on the staff than what is already in place, though. __________________ If it were up to me, the word "got" would be deleted from the English language. Posting and YOU: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting

February 4, 2009, 12:59 PM	#23
nate45 Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2007 Location: Illinois Posts: 3,746	"Bud spelers of the word unight, and remumber: cabron is most abundent elemant in hte youknwverse" __________________ "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ (>_<)

February 2, 2009, 04:17 PM	#2
goodspeed(TPF) Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2009 Location: WI Posts: 1,162	.yletelpmoc eerga I whut hee sed __________________ It's a trick. Get an axe. http://www.thepiratefleet.com/index.shtml

February 2, 2009, 04:55 PM	#3
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,379	If you see such an instance that it would tend to violated our existing forum rules, report the post to the moderator staff using this icon: That sends a note to all moderators and admins.

February 2, 2009, 06:15 PM	#4
Al Norris Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2000 Location: Rupert, Idaho Posts: 9,660	On the other hand, if you can politely let the offender know that their spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc. makes it hard to read, and hard to read posts are often ignored... I see nothing wrong in letting the general members self police the board. We had a big public discussion (275 posts) about this rule change, back in early 2006, IIRC.... Yup. here it is. Read at least the first post of that thread to get an idea of what the rule is about.

February 2, 2009, 06:24 PM	#6
DiscoRacing Senior Member Join Date: December 19, 2008 Location: milton, wv Posts: 3,640	*shouldnt have ducked phonics class to hang with this

February 2, 2009, 06:33 PM	#7
hoytinak Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 5,721	Antipitas, that's a good thread in that link. It'd probably be a good idea to (maybe edit it?) and re-sticky it.

February 2, 2009, 06:51 PM	#8
Al Norris Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2000 Location: Rupert, Idaho Posts: 9,660	Perhaps. But that's over and done with. I can link to it anytime I need the reference (to point someone else to it).

February 3, 2009, 11:03 AM	#9
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,379	Wow. I'd forgotten all about that thread.

February 3, 2009, 11:31 AM	#12
DiscoRacing Senior Member Join Date: December 19, 2008 Location: milton, wv Posts: 3,640	Stongly Agree.... been there..

February 3, 2009, 11:49 AM	#13
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,947	I think what peetzakilla suggests has merit. He's not saying enhance or sticky the English language protocol guidelines. He is suggesting that we let it be known, either in a rules file paragraph or in a sticky thread, that it would be best to leave the enforcement of the existing rule to the moderators - let us be the "heavies" if you will. If most members would do that, it would save quite a bit of online bickering, embarrassment and perhaps even a banned member or two.

February 4, 2009, 07:24 AM	#17
Creature Junior member Join Date: April 8, 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 3,769	I disagree. This board is populated by a a majority of members who actually give a hoot about the board and how it actually looks to new viewers. The written word is our only avenue of expression. Do it using standard English as best you are able. As a new viewer, if I saw that this board is rife with poor grammar, spelling and punctuation...and if I saw that the members do not care enough to self-police themselves, I would be very hard pressed to be confident in the credibility of the board as a whole. Now if someone goes too far in their chastisement of the offender, then yes, the Mods should step in with corrective action as they see fit. But I believe that we as members can and should do much to ensure that this forum remains readable in the true sense of the word.

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