Idiot newbie with primer problems

[bhoglan]

Hey there,

I just started reloading and I'm working on my first batch of .308.

The brass is once-fired. I've deprimed, cleaned, trimmed, and measured all the brass.
My first issue came with trimming. I didn't have a good reference case as all the cases had expanded beyond tolerances. I decided to use a Hornady modified .308 case as my reference to get the size correct on the Hornady Cam Lock trimmer. I got very mixed results as far as trimmed length, even with everything tightened down and not moving. Is there something simple I'm missing about this trimmer?

My next issue came with priming. Using the Hornady hand priming tool, I was attempting to prime my cases with Remington 9 1/2 large rifle primers. Most of the cases took the primers without issue, but so far I've run into 3 where I encounter significant resistance while squeezing. Once I get to the top of the squeeze stroke, the case is stuck on the shell holder. I was able to get all 3 to come out after a bit of swearing and prying.

I've attached a link to pictures of what these cases look like now. My questions are:
1. Are the cases safe to use with the damage to the rim?
2. If they're safe to use, can I deprime them with my normal Hornady sizing/depriming die?
3. How do I prevent this from happening?

http://imgur.com/a/LAaLp

Thanks!
Brian

[Ralph Allen]

Firstly, get a set of dial calipers. This is the only way to tell if the cases are over max and need trimming. Then it's as simple as adjusting the caliper down to the "trim to length" listed in your reloading manual. Very tiny adjustments on your trimming tool. Once you have the tool adjusted to your proper trim to length, then you can simply run all the rest of the cases thru and all should be the same. As far as the priming, throw those cases away or put them on your "ooops" shelf. Don't know why you encountered resistance as they are Hornady cases and should not have crimped primers. Most military brass, ie Lake city or any NATO brass has crimped primers and will need to have the crimp swaged or cut out.
Ralph

[Jim Watson]

I don't know about adjusting that model trimmer. None are very easy, and my Lyman just gets put kind of in the ball park. If it cuts to .010" under maximum the way the book says to, great. .007", fine, .015" well, ok.

You really did jump up and down on that priming tool or the screwdriver to pry them out of the shellholder. I would trash them.

Everybody says the advantage of hand priming is feeling the primer hit the bottom of the pocket. But FIRST, you feel the primer START into the pocket. Those commercial cases were not likely crimped, you just missed the hole.

[RC20]

Ok, take this from a been thre, done that and have too many T shirts.

The only trimmer tool (IMNSHO) is the Gerard Tri Trimmer (unless you want to go the whole route and get the Motorized Gerard Trimmer Tool)

For whatever weird reasons, the case overall does not work, something about what is larger where etc.

I have had the hand trimmer with the thing set to a distance, one would trim forever, the nest none and nothing came out right

Same wit the pin type you insert into the case holding it with a special holder. All junk (not entirely ture, I use the pin to poke media out of the primer hole so its been repurposed to something usefull )

The Gerard indexes on the case shoulder (resized case only) and its within .002 of perfect.

Throw all the rest of that stuff away and get the Gerard Tri Trimmer and you will not look back (it will work for common case shoulders and in that caliber)

Primer pockets can be picky

the only tool like is the RCBS universal primer tool

Some arthritis in the hands, I have yet to come across one that I can't get a primer into a case with that tool

It seat them at a negative the needed -.003 or better.

It not recommended to de prime a live primer with a sizing dies.

note: If you elect to do so, then not that I recommend it, I use ear muffs and safety goggles, not that I do that of course.


ps: Find a big box store and go to a reloading class. Its a lot less painful than learning these things alone. Not that of course I have ever had a problem and all my stuff came out perfectly and other lies.

[RC20]

PS: Just looked at the pictures.

Something is really screwed up, never saw anything like that before.

Thanks for sharing .

Not a clue what the problem is but it sure is bad.

Tool is screwed up, pockets are way too small and when it gets that bad its time to quit and figure out what's gone wrong.

Again a class is in order, the first one should have been a warning.

We all learn differently, you just need some good help to get going in the right direction. Nothing to do with you. I grew up with it and am a mechanic.

I had had my share of problems that I caused and had to figure out where I was gong wrong.

[Jiggy300]

Are you using the right primer pin. The hornady hand primer comes with a small rifle primer and a large rifle primer, the indentation on the primer looks like you used the small pin.

[Reloadron]

My guess is that the cases were not aligned when the primers were driven in. Stuff like this happens as we get a handle on the "feel" of seating primers. The press aside there are a number of hand priming tools which will work fine. I use an old Lee hand priming tool and an old RCBS hand priming tool. Priming is just something you develop a knack for doing. Anyway, looking at the picture and the flat circles off center on the primers I would guess, as mentioned, mis-alignment at the start. I also agree with Jiggy 300 as the flat circles look small? Would I use those cases? Likely no, I would just trash them. They could be deprimed and cleaned up but I would trash them and chalk it up to the learning curve and experience gained.

While it is not necessary to get OCD about it relatively clean primer pockets do help.

Next, as mentioned, you really need to get a vernier caliper. That is one tool which is indispensable to the hand loader. Really matters not what tool you use to case trim but it all begins with a good caliper. Just learn how to use the tool you have and become proficient using it. I have an RCBS setup which serves me fine and was a gift from my brother. Over the years I have used a wide variety and while some do work better and easier than others they all get the cases trimmed.

Ron

[bhoglan]

Alrighty, First: Thank you all for your advice, it's greatly appreciated.
The biggest issue turned out to be a misunderstanding on my part. I'd thought that an ultrasonic bath took the place of needing to swage the primer pockets. I've since corrected my mistake and bought the hand held Lyman universal tool.
Now, here's the interesting part: All of the cases I had an issue with were Hornady and from the same product line (I'm not sure which one). Looking at the case it appears that this line uses a crimp in the primer pocket. This brass is once-fired and all came from my Dad. He would've shot it from a bolt action .308. I've counted just about 20 of these little jerks, so it looks like it was just a box of weird Hornady.
I've swaged all the cases that the swager will fit in. Now I'll ream and then swage the silly little Hornady jerks.

@RalphAllen - I bought a set of Hornady digital calipers. I tried using the caliper itself as a guide for the correct length on the trimming tool, but I had no luck on that front.
@JimWatson - I tossed the bad primes, and yeah, I put a considerable effort into removing them. I didn't want to drop another five whole dollars for a new shell holder. Also, as for the lengths, I've set aside several cases that came in too short. The Max length is 2.015, the min is 2.005. The ones I've set aside are in the 1.95 range. Can I safely use them or should I just toss them too?
@RC20 - I'm definitely eyeing one of those electric case prep stations. I'm young enough that I don't have arthritis yet, but I sure as hell don't want to do anything to hasten its approach. Also, I can't imagine you'd do something silly like deprime a live round. As for the pictures, apparently that's what cases will look like when you force a primer through a crimp and wrestle the case out of the shell holder. I'll take a look at classes in my area, thanks for the idea.
@Jiggy300 - The priming tool came with the large and small pins, I'm using the large pin for the large rifle primers.
@Reloadron - I could definitely feel the difference in the primer seatings. Most were quite easy and took minimal effort, these ones took significant effort.

Again, thanks all for the advice! I'm learning as I go and trying hard not to blow my own ass off.

[Longshot4]

So you had a problem seating the primers?

All you need to do is purchase a Redding uniforming hand tool and your troubles with seating primers will go away.

[Reloadron]

The Max length is 2.015, the min is 2.005.

Just a little point here. For the .308 Winchester the Maximum Length is indeed 2.015" and the suggested "trim to" length is 2.005" but the actual minimum is 1.095". The SAAMI specification actually reads 2.015 -0.020.

When you trim you want to get all of your brass as uniform as possible. This makes things go much easier when you seat your bullets, especially bullets with a cannelure. Given some time and practice you will do just fine.

Ron

[JeepHammer]

What I see is crimped primer pockets, removing the crimp is required for a clean primer install.

The best advise I can give is a caliper, a LE Wilson case gauge, some instruction videos on how to use the case gauge, and at least one factory round to compair your work against.

Before you Trim, you need to size.
To properly size, you need a case gauge at minimum.
Once sized to fit the chamber, then you bother with trimming for length.

As for primer pockets, a civilian .308 headstamp (instead of military cross in circle, last two digits of year of manufacture)
That headstamp DOES NOT mean the primer pocket isn't crimped.
There is so much bleed over from civilian to military and back you can't count on anything anymore.

[mikld]

While the brass looks like civilian issue, the pockets look like there may be a crimp around the mouths. Also, the rims and heads look pretty banged up. I would lightly chamfer the pocket mouth and inspect to insure heads aren't so dinged up to distort the pocket. You should be able to feel primers going in crooked or sideways, when it don't feel right, stop...

What were those cases shot in?

[MarkGlazer]

Procedure, procedure, procedure.... safety

Jeephammer is on target with your steps and what your photos clearly show.

Process;
Deprime. Resize. Case gauge test, possibly resize again. Check flash hole for crimp pocket, remove crimp. Measure case length with a caliper against your data (every caliber in your data contains detailed measurements - shouldn't be working without your data opened to the proper page for immediate reference). Trim case if necessary, re-measure. Now you are ready to load.

You can change the order of some of the steps but you really must have the right tools at your disposal. I left out cleaning the case, optional to some, religion to others.

Take your time. Rifle is not hard, but it is a longer process than pistol and your care and attention to detail are mission critical.

Be safe. Good luck.

[T. O'Heir]

Highly unlikely that once fired cases need trimming. As mentioned, buy a digital vernier calipre(digital is just easier to read, but read its manual too.), lock it at the max case length (2.015")and use it as a gauge. If the case isn't longer than 2.015", it doesn't need trimming. It might still need chamfering and deburring if it's once fired factory ammo. Any case that has been trimmed requires chamfering and deburring too though.
You do not need to spend money on case gauges to do anything. The Vernier is enough.
The cases are scrap. Far too much pressure putting those primers in, but the extractor groove rims are damaged too. Pitch 'em.
Might be the wrong shell holder in the priming tool. That doesn't happen when you prime on the press.
"...brass looks like civilian issue..." Doesn't get any more civvy than Hornady. snicker. Civilian cartridges do not have crimped in primers. Strictly a military thing that is currently done Stateside under Federal's management at the Lake City arsenal.

[RC20]

Unless the earth has moved out of Orbit, Hornady has no crimped primers.

Either it was done during the reload process in the rest of the problem or someone did it.

You don't have to swage primer pockets from Civie brass (read that you should not have to, I am not even sure if there is a crimp setup to do that)

And the Tri Trimmer or the Gerard Motorized unit (if you do or plan on more than 4 rifle cartridges ) is not just artistis. As it trims, chamfers and deburrs its a time saver (and better as the RCBS prep station for that is just a guess) , and it does the trim to amazing accurate.

Love the RCBS Universal. I have figure out how to be ambi primerous . That way a hand gets a break when I do 100 or so.

Not the best for arthritis but its consistently right seating.

And my brother just lured me into the Lyaman M die and that is antoehr shaker and mover.

I hate the ball neck size things. First use this got put to was to uniform some 30-06 Lapua. I don't care what people say, Lapua necks are very non uniform. From very hard to easy, about 1 in 5 to 10 can be hard. Great brass but their neck tension is way off (same thing with 308)

My take was I had to shoot the Lapua once to get it tuned. Ran it through the M die and while not perfect, very even, its a lot more even than it was.

Keep learning new things.

[JeepHammer]

Every Hornady TAP round I've ever seen has ALWAYS been crimped, and a bunch of crimped rounds have come from Hornady.

The pictures CLEARLY show crimped primer pockets, primers hung on crimp.

[ireload2]

That Hornady trimmer is a dumb design I am afraid.

The brass registers against the front of the rim which is not a consistent locator.
When the rim varies in thickness your cases will vary in length after trimming.
This is because you use the rim to locate the case when trimming but you really measure to the case head surface on the opposite side of the rim.

If you study a Wilson or a Forster trimmer they both locate off of the case head and they give you consistent lengths.

[Mobuck]

The LEE trimmer with the caliber specific length spuds. For the beginner, this makes things much simpler/easier. As for the crimped primer pockets: detecting this is quite simple even for a beginner.
Tossing a bunch of $$ into an expensive and advanced reloading set-up that is difficult to adjust and is overly technical is a poor way to start IMHO.

[condor bravo]

Have you been lubing the cases? I don't see that mentioned in any of the posts. If there was difficulty extracting the cases from the sizing die and resulting in the bent case rims, and the difficulty in removing from the shell holder. Lucky perhaps that the rims did not break off, resulting in a stuck case. 308s can be difficult to size and extract from the die.

[JeepHammer]

Good catch Condor!
I hadn't addressed the bent extraction rims yet, but that was where I was heading.

-----
Quote from OP,
"I'm trying not to blow my own ass off"

Always A Good Polocy!

Might I suggest a good book or two on reloading?
This isn't something you want to learn by 'Winging It'...

[Rimfire5]

I agree with Jeep Hammer. At least some Hornady factory ammo brass have crimped primer pockets. It looks like these have crimped primer pockets to me.

Unless you want to spend the time to swage the primer pockets, don't try to force new primers into cleaned brass with crimped primer pockets.
The first thing to do when the primer won't go in relatively easily is not to try and force them in without first checking to see if they have crimped primer pockets.

You can tell there is a crimp if you look carefully, especially if you compare it to non-crimped brass.

You really do have to inspect the brass you are about to reload after you have cleaned it. I would also recommend that you sort the brass by head stamp if you want to load for accuracy.

[Longshot4]

You guys are on the mark.

Rule number one is to purchase a couple manuals and carefully read them. Over and over. When you think you understand what is going on read them again.

There is nothing with reloading that requires the force you used to press those primers in with.

Inspect the cases in detail every time you touch them. Then read the manual again if you don't understand some thing.

You don't need power tools of any type to load with. Especially to deburring case mouths.

It is best to learn with hand tools and inspect every time you handle the case... So you had one primer jam. You should have stopped when it would not go in easy. You should have not gone on to the next case without figuring out what caused the high resistance TWO more times! That's a big no no.

Get a primer pocket reamer and when you first inspect the cases you will be able to try to ream out the primer pocket. IT is only required the first time. Read the manual as you proceed with the loading process. The first time will be slow but correct and with practice you will see what is needed to be more productive. With out a BANG

[RC20]

Every Hornady TAP round I've ever seen has ALWAYS been crimped, and a bunch of crimped rounds have come from Hornady.

The pictures CLEARLY show crimped primer pockets, primers hung on crimp.

I stand corrected, don't even know what a TAP is.

[JeepHammer]

Hornady has a 'TAP' line out, (Tactical And Police, I think)
They also have a 7.62 (.308) line out that duplicates 7.62mm M118 Long Range rounds the military uses, all crimped primers, sealed primers, sealed bullets.

We all know the 'Tacti-Cool' craze blurred the line between civilian & military production, and the HUGE 'Civilian' Law Enforcment contracts (3.2 Billion rounds using 100% military standards) blurred the line between civilian & military even farther,
This is just another example.

I had a guy drop off a rifle just a couple weeks ago, two boxes of 'Civilian' (yellow box) rounds from Remington, and one box was crimped, the other wasn't.
If crimps are making it into civilian blasting ammo, the line is virtually gone.

[ireload2]

>>>Tossing a bunch of $$ into an expensive and advanced reloading set-up that is difficult to adjust and is overly technical is a poor way to start IMHO. <<<

That is something that only an inexperienced loader that has not tried a better trimmer would say.
Buying a half baked design that will not trim half of the cartridges you shoot is really dumb.


Where are you going to get the Lee trimmer parts for a .225 Win, 6x47 Rem, 6.5 Dutch, 7mm TCU, .416 Taylor, 6.5 Jap and 7.7 Jap, .25-35 Win, 32-40 Win, .33 Win, 6.5X58 Portuguese, .35 Win, and many others? The Forster that I bought in 1975 will trim all of these and many more. It was not too expensive or advanced and was not difficult or overly technical way back then for thousands of reloader and it is NOT now either. By the way it is a cheaper set up for a handloader that shoots a lot of different rounds than almost any other trimmer that I can think of.Once you have the 3 main collets and a set of pilots there is noting else that you need.