&$%#! Lee FCD question (So far, I ain't impressed with Lee FCD)

[stinger]

The benchrest shooters don't use my rifles either. What is your point?

[dogfood]

Hmm ... I've had good success with the Lee FCD's in .303 British and .30-60, and continue to use them.

I don't use the pistol FCD dies because I think they resize the brass far more than it needs. Since I've never had a chambering issue using standard dies in either auto pistols or revolvers, I don't see the point of further working the brass.

dogfood

[CrustyFN]

BUT... seems to me that FCD in rifle works somewhat different than handgun calibers. The handgun FCD dies seem to almost post-size the fully loaded round which gives some folks piece of mind for chambering.

That is correct they do work different. The pistol FCD has the post sizing feature but should not post size every round you load. It will only post size a round that is out of spec. If it is post sizing most of the rounds that somebody is loading I would suggest that they learn how to setup their dies correctly. I don't see anything wrong with the die post sizing one every once in a while. I use the FCD for all calibers I load. I load on a classic turret so for me it's not an extra step because I would have to pull the handle to bypass the empty station if I didn't use it.
Rusty

[snuffy]

I don't use the pistol FCD dies because I think they resize the brass far more than it needs. Since I've never had a chambering issue using standard dies in either auto pistols or revolvers, I don't see the point of further working the brass.

dogfood

Here's the deal. The carbide ring in the lee FCD is much bigger on the inside diameter than the sizer die. It ONLY resizes the finished round IF it is over maximum chamber diameter. An over size bullet, one that got cocked during seating, or bulged in some other manner. These would fail a case guage check, and may fail to chamber.

Like Crusty said, if you are post sizing every round, something is wrong with your set-up.

[JB696]

Of all my handloading gear, I think I love my FCD the most. I like doing the crimp as a separate operation using a single stage press. That way I can enjoy the feel of each individual squeeze, then the release, then the smooth withdrawal of the shell from the die. Mmmmm....what a feeling. When the completed round comes out I look over each one....and maybe fondle it a little bit. My cases are trimmed to within .001 of each other in length. So on every round, I'm looking at a perfectly formed crimp, with the edge nestled snuggly in the cannelure. But not TOO tight! Just slightly less squeeze than the factory ammo that I am using as a model. And every one is formed exactly the same. And perfect. Yes, I love my FCD. When I read something uncomplimentary about them on the forum, I have to wonder if maybe the problem is with the operator and not the die.

[wncchester]

BR shooters also don't use threaded dies of any kind, don't use threaded presses and don't use our powder measures. ????

[TexasSeaRay]

1. A strong prejudice against the factory crimp die, seeing no need for the die.

2. Even after figuring out how to use the die, gave up on them and returned them to the store without ever testing the rounds crimped and seeing if there was a performance increase.

I consistently get .7" and smaller groups at 100 meters with the 30-06. Reckon I could go back and spend nine bucks on the FCD and see if it will improve on that.

BUT, believe it or not, having just got back in town . . . one of my old flying buddies is a semi-serious benchrest shooter. Semi-serious as in he don't use threaded dies, doesn't sacrifice a frozen chicken fryer over a fire started with surplus Unique before he shoots, doesn't spend pornographic amounts of money on his rifles . . . he just manages to load and shoot utterly amazing groups.

While I was out shooting with him, he gave me some .223 dies (RCBS). It's been years since I messed with reloading .223. I got all of that stuff for free when I was a gov't cop and still have 200 ct bags of it PILED in my ammo cabinet.

But I like reloading and he talked me into reloading .223. Guess what else he sold me on? A Lee FCD for .223.

We did some loading on his bench (with the dies he gave me) and finished them off with the FCD and it IS pretty nifty.

I stopped at Cabela's on my way home from the airport and traded my 30-06 and 30-30 FCDs for a .223 and 7.62 x 39 FCD.

I'll take my crow BBQ'd, extra portions, please, and will have a nice slice of humble pie (not Frampton's old band, neither) for dessert.

Jeff

[Peter M. Eick]

Texas,

Reading over your trials and final result, you can see why the FCD is a hit or miss thing. Sometimes it works and sometimes it does not.

I find that in about 1/2 to 2/3's of my rifles the collet fcd actually does help a bit in terms of accuracy. The key thing is to give it a fair shake and piddle with it until you find its sweet spot where it can do more help then harm.

The pistol version is another kettle of fish. As a generally lead bullet shooter with starline brass, the FCD was usually good for about 2 to 3" of group size at 15 yrds. With copper bullets and run of the mill brass it was ok but it definitely hurt my groups in general.

So in the end I think you came to what I would call the enlightened result. Sometimes it works and is great and sometimes it don't. Sort of like most things in life.

[dogfood]

Here's the deal. The carbide ring in the lee FCD is much bigger on the inside diameter than the sizer die. It ONLY resizes the finished round IF it is over maximum chamber diameter. An over size bullet, one that got cocked during seating, or bulged in some other manner. These would fail a case guage check, and may fail to chamber.

OK, then I must have a seriously undersize .45 ACP FCD, because it will "resize" every cartridge loaded with a 0.452" cast bullet (yes, I mic' them) - regardless of the case brand. And all of these will chamber just fine ... without the FCD operation ... in all of my .45's.

It will also resize some cartridges loaded with 0.451" jacketed bullets, depending on which case is used. It's been a few years, but if memory serves me, it would resize all Federal cases, but no Remington.

[Side note: This FCD was purchased just after Lee starting making them, so I guess it's possible that they changed the dimensions on them slightly at some point.]

dogfood

[BigJakeJ1s]

There are two kinds of FCD for handgun cartridges also: the Carbide FCD (CFCD), a regular crimp die with a carbide post-sizing ring; and the FCD for bottleneck pistol cartridges, that uses a collet like the rifle FCD but is not open at the top.

The only CFCD I've used was for roll crimping 45 colt, and I did not like it one bit. Set up my hornady seater to crimp and seat at once, and it works great.

If you look at the way a roll crimp works, the cartridge mouth does not move in relation to the bullet as it is seated and crimped. The mouth is turned in and stays a fixed distance from the tip of the bullet as the crimp continues, and the bullet is seated to final depth. Think of seating and roll crimping as pushing the cartridge up onto the bullet and into a crimp ring that has a fixed relationship with the bullet, rather than pushing the bullet into the case mouth, and you'll see what I mean.

Taper crimp dies are slightly different, and the case mouth does continue to advance up the sides of the bullet as the bullet is seated to final depth. I have no experience with taper crimped cartridges, so I'll reserve judgment on CFCD (or any other separate crimp method) for taper crimped cartridges.

I have not tried the rifle FCDs, but I have used the bottleneck pistol FCD for 7.62x25 Tokarev. It works very well for that.

Andy

[Peter M. Eick]

Guys,

The problem seems to be when you mix a cast lead slug (usually hard cast) and thick brass like starline. The diameter exceeds the carbide ring and the FCD does what it thinks it should and basically mangles your bullet.

I "believe" that if you use thinner brass (Remington comes to mind) and jacketed bullets then the FCD is probably fine. Look at all the posts above by happy shooters, they cannot be that wrong.

With say 10mm with Win or Remmy brass and Sierra Jacketeds the FCD causes me no problems. Put a 45acp in starline with lasercast 225's and you have a problem.

Just think about it for a few minutes. If you buy into that the FCD squeezes down the round if it is outside factory chamber specs, then how come my ammo with out the FCD will chamber? Thus it must be smaller then the absolute max diameter.

Now if you were lee, how much smaller would you make it? Would you make it small enough to do lead bullets (normally a few thousands larger then jacketeds) or would you make it for jacketeds? Would you make it for thick brass like Starline or more normal commercial like Remington or CBC?

In my mind Lee made a compromise and made a tool. If you meet the requirements for the tool to work well it does its job, but if you want to hammer nails with a screwdriver, while it might work, don't expect the best results.

[Ala Dan]

I occassionally use Lee FCD's in 9m/m and .45ACP, with great success.

[JB696]

The bushing on my .38/.357 FCD passes all types of jacketed bullets in Remington cases easily. However, the bushing in my .44 FCD was a little bit tight and resized every round. So I honed it out by chucking a piece of tightly rolled up 80 grit sandpaper in a drill motor and working it in and out of the bushing. For about two hours. The bushing is very hard, so it will take a while. And you don't want to get it too hot, so dip it in a cup of cold water when it starts burning your hand. As you go, you can check it with a pair of dial caliphers. But I found it easier to use a properly sized shell casing as a go no-go gauge.

[CrustyFN]

I have loaded lead in 9mm and used the FCD without any problems. Maybe it's not made quite as tight for the 9mm as the 45, I'm not sure.
Rusty

[BigJakeJ1s]

Maybe we're seeing the extent of tolerances in manufacturing both the Lee CFCD, and firearm chambers. Some folks having no problem chambering rounds without the CFCD may have chambers toward the large end of the tolerance band. Maybe some CFCD users experiencing that it often resizes have a CFCD toward the small end of the tolerance band...

Andy

[Marlin.357]

Insert loaded round, and check crimp.

B.S.

Did that and zippo, nada, nothing. Further reading says that when the collet closes in and there is no more separation, maximum crimp has been reached.

More B.S. It don't happen. I can screw both of these FCD's in all the way to the locking ring and until the locking ring is flush with the top of the press and the crimping collet doesn't change one iota.

You can turn the crimping collet by hand on both dies, wiggle it around, screw the die in all the way into the press, and there simply is no crimp. In fact, there is ZERO resistance whatsoever. There is ZERO contact being made anywhere in the FCD die.

So hopefully I'm either doing something wrong, or these things are the biggest fraud on the market--except that I've read too many people's accounts how the FCD has made old guns shoot like new, saved marriages and put kids through college.

The loaded rounds were already crimped? Right? Try it with uncrimped rounds.

[Alleykat]

So next, I ran some of my previous reloads (that only saw my seating and crimping die and no FCD) in both 30-06 and 30-30 through the respective FCD's.

Nothing.

Am I the only one here who caught this? OF COURSE, THE FCD WON'T APPLY A CRIMP TO AN ALREADY-CRIMPED ROUND!!!

[Sigma 40 Blaster]

For what it's worth...

I am still pretty new to reloading and had problems with my .40 cal when I bought a new gun that feeds a little different and has a slightly tighter chamber. The FCD eliminated that problem for me.

Also I found out that I was having some problems trying to seat and crimp in one operation due to lube/lead rings around the case mouth. So I use my seat/crimp die for seating only, flare the case mouth a little more, and the FCD knocks everything back in place and leaves a tiny (1/8 in or so) bright spot at the top of the brass to confirm the round is crimped. That fixed my FTF problems, I now use a FCD on every handgun caliber I load for.

I was also having trouble with fail to feeds with my .223. The cartridge would stop less than 1/4 from being fully chambered. The FCD die fixed that problem EASILY.

Also on handgun catridges the FCD sizes all the way down to the very bottom whereas my standard decapping/sizing die leaves a tiny bit unsized (no matter how low I turn the die).

To each his own...if someone doesn't like them they can save 15.00.

[crowbeaner]

I've held my fire on the Lee FCD until now; I have one in 35 Remington, and it will NEVER be screwed into my press again. I loaded 50 rounds with it, and 50 with the stock RCBS crimp in the seating die. Suffice it to say, the RCBS crimped ammo shot 1.5 inch groups at 100 yards in the Marlin M336. The Lee FCD stuff shot 4 inch groups from the same rifle the same day with 20 minutes for the barrel to cool between 4 shot strings. I'm not a Lee basher, but some of their stuff just doesn't live up to their claims. And no, I wasn't over crimping; however for the Lee/Speer attack ads of yesteryear, I WAS using Speer bullets. JMHO.

[Edward429451]

What an informative thread. Peter M. Eick summed it all up very nicely. I do use oversize hardcast and had to knock the carbide ring out of the 44 FCD because I immediately did not like the post sizing and the brass overwork. Sounds like the force was with me on that. The jury is still out on the FCD crimp only vs roll crimp though. I do like the rifle FCD's, I have one in .308.

I wonder about the .223 FCD. I use a Dillon tapercrimp die presently. Has anyone pitted the Dillon & Lee crimp dies against each other for accuracy?

[TexasSeaRay]

After having read and re-read this thread, thinking and re-thinking about these FCDs, I went out and re-bought FCDs for 30-06.

All factors in the loading stayed constant except for the crimping step. The dies I used were Lee and RCBS.

In batches of three, I loaded up rounds with the bullet only seated, seated and crimped by the bullet-seating die, and seated and crimped by the FCD.

The two guns used for this "test" were my pre-64 Winchester 70 and Savage 110B--both very proven, consistent shooters.

Sorry, but just not impressed. In fact, in the rounds that were only seated by the bullet seater die (both RCBS and Lee die sets) and then crimped with the FCD, I had feed problems. NEVER had feed problems before with either rifle.

As has been the norm for years, had zero feed problems with the rounds seated and crimped by the RCBS dies, or the Lee dies.

Weird.

Tend to agree with whoever wrote "a solution in search of a problem."

I will try them with the .223, though, and hope for the best.

Jeff

[Alleykat]

seated and crimped by the FCD

THE FACTORY CRIMP DIE DOESN'T SEAT!!!!! This is a really tedious thread!

[azredhawk44]

TexasSeaRay:

A single .30 caliber FCD will work on any .30 caliber rifle round... there's no reason to buy one for each of your .30 caliber rifles.

I have one rifle FCD and I use it for my .308, .30-30 and 7.62x54R.

Frankly, I really only use it for .30-30... the bolt action calibers tend to act more consistently with no crimp at all, or at most a very minimal crimp applied while seating the bullet.

I tried using my seating die to crimp on the .30-30, but I found the extremely thin brass of the .30-30 to be too fragile to combine both these operations. The FCD does a wonderful job crimping this thin brass case into the cannelure of the bullet.

I have yet to find a use for the FCD on a straight-walled pistol cartridge. Crimp adjustment on those cases are easy... it is only on bottleneck cartridges that I tend to have any difficulty applying a crimp. .30-30 seems to be the worst culprit out of the lot.

[Alleykat]

(1) The OP has tried to crimp with a rifle FCD rounds that have already been crimped.

(2) The OP states that he's seated and crimped with a FCD, when the FCD WILL NOT SEAT A BULLET.

(3) Draw your own conclusions from (1) & (2)!

[TexasSeaRay]

Semantics, Alleykat.

I've been doing this stuff so long that saying/typing "seating and crimp" is as automatic as belching after the first pull off a longneck.

So, how about this. . .

SEATED the bullets ONLY . . . using RCBS dies as well as Lee dies. . .

DID NOT CRIMP, ONLY SEATED THE BULLETS

Run SEATED--NOT CRIMPED--rounds through the FCD miracle bullet finishing die.

About half of the SEATED, BUT NOT PREVIOUSLY CRIMPED ROUNDS WHICH WERE THEN CRIMPED BY THE MIRACLE FCD DIE had feed problems in both the Model 70 and the Savage 110B.

Neither gun has had feed problems previously. Did not have feed problems when I SEATED AND CRIMPED IN THE SAME BLOODY STEP with either my RCBS or Lee dies.

The rounds that DID FEED AND HAD ONLY BEEN SEATED--NOT CRIMPED UNTIL CRIMPED BY THE MIRACLE LEE FCD--did not shoot any differently than previous rounds that did not use the FCD.

Rounds run through the FCD that had trouble feeding or that were a bit too tight for my taste shot like crap--but that would be expected.

However, the miracle FCD seems to make smooth work on the .223 rounds I'm loading. On this application, I'm more concerned with reliable, consistent feeding than MOA accuracy.

Conclusion? If FCDs work for you, go for it. But they are not a cure-all for bad reloading habits or improper die set-ups/adjustments. The marketing and product description infers that they are a cure-all, and they are not. Probably not a bad final stage for four/five station progressives. They are extremely cost-efficient.

But they do not replace careful consideration to die set and adjustment.

Jeff