old shotgun i just inherited

NUKE HUNTER · May 22, 2017, 08:14 PM

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IMG_2391.JPGmy father just passed and I just inherited all his guns, this one gun he had when he was in Italy, its a 16 gauge sxs with external hammers and two triggers, its old but id like to know more. I have no plans to sell it as it will go to my son so any help will be greatly appreciated.
on the strap in the middle of the barrels it says"fusil eprouve aux poudres blanches"
on the end of barrels near the receiver the left barrel says in gold lettering "damas crolle", then "extra full" on the right barrel.
I know what all this means but could someone tell me was it a popular French gun and what was the circulation ? any other info would be great.
thank you for the help
jerry

Jim Watson · May 22, 2017, 09:39 PM

Nothing you have said shows the make or age of the gun, except that nitro proof Damascus is very late 19th or very early 20th century.

**44 AMP** · May 22, 2017, 10:42 PM

All markings and CLEAR pictures of the gun from as many angles as practical will help. Check the action when open and the barrels under the forearm for markings, as well.

Unless you can find an actual name (and better yet, address) don't get your hopes up about a positive ID. Guns of that type were made by both big makers and one man shops, literally from the later 1800s until the Second World war.

With the markings you found, I would venture it was made west of the Rhine. But, that's not an absolute. Belgian, French, or Italian would be my guess, as the English, German, and Spanish makers usually used their own languages.

I wish you luck, hopefully you will find some other marking(s) that allow for a better ID.

NUKE HUNTER · May 23, 2017, 11:08 AM

Thank you guys for the info, I'll try to get the pictures up soon.
Jerry

T. O'Heir · May 23, 2017, 12:17 PM

My condolences on your loss.
"...a popular French gun..." More likely one of the hordes of Belgian made shotguns. Before W.W. I there were hundreds of small shops around Liege churning out low end shotguns by the hundreds. Look for proof marks under the forestock.

FITASC · May 23, 2017, 02:24 PM

Take the barrels off and take clear pics of all proof, inspection and other markings on the underside of the barrels and the receiver

NUKE HUNTER · May 23, 2017, 07:19 PM

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FITASC · May 23, 2017, 07:26 PM

I cannot make out the proof marks on the barrels.

See if any of the Belgian (or other Nationality) proof marks here:
http://www.nramuseum.com/media/940944/proofmarks.pdf
Match the markings on your gun

NUKE HUNTER · May 23, 2017, 07:55 PM

thank you for your condolences,
there are a lot of faint markings all over that area and overlapping, just wasn't struck hard enough? this is the best I could do:
the most obvious is "D FRECS"
then "50 PLOME or PLOMBES"?
then "1 GR 81 POUDRE"?
then "BCN"?
all these markings were on both barrels and all over the place, very sketchy
I used a magnifying glass and different flashlights from different angles.
my father came from a dirt poor town, no water or electric in his shack. I'm thinking that the gun is not high quality or popular
any info would be cool
thank you

sgms · May 23, 2017, 07:55 PM

The marks are not clear but near as I can tell look rather like Belgian black powder proofs. But do not hold me to that, only a maybe from the picture.

FITASC · May 23, 2017, 08:08 PM

What might help with the marks is to take a piece of white chalk and see if that helps highlight them

NUKE HUNTER · May 23, 2017, 08:15 PM

i'll try the white chalk trick tomorrow, thanks for the tip
there was one marking on both barrels that I had written down but forgot it was "17.0" is that what the barrel was load tested?

James K · May 23, 2017, 08:17 PM

"Damas crolle" would seem to mean "Crolie Damascus", since the only meaning I know of for "Croile" is as a proper name. It is probably the maker of the gun or at least of the barrels.

The proof marks are Belgian, not French and consistent with a Liege-made gun for black or low pressure smokeless ("white") powder. I can't identify the other markings except that "poudre" means "powder" and "plombe" is lead, the metal.

I strongly suggest you treat the gun as an heirloom and keep it in memory of your father, but not attempt to fire it.

Jim

FITASC · May 23, 2017, 08:25 PM

Quote:

it was "17.0" is that what the barrel was load tested?

Most likely the barrel diameter, possibly at the muzzle, in mm.

NUKE HUNTER · May 23, 2017, 08:25 PM

my father went back to Italy in 1995? just to get that gun, went through hell to get it here. he actually went rabbit hunting with it once, he fired both barrels at a cottontail with his head turned, missed the rabbit but was happy a heck his face was still there. never seen him so happy. he retired it right after that.
this gun is going to stay in the family for sure jim

mapsjanhere · May 23, 2017, 08:47 PM

Belgian elg in oval, perron, and what looks like the 16 g shotgun proof.
Probably late 19th century, damask barrel in poor shape - don't shoot it.

Teddy Bear · May 23, 2017, 09:29 PM

I can't help you any nuke, but that's a nice ole shotgun.

NUKE HUNTER · May 28, 2017, 06:05 PM

thank you guys for the help

Bluecthomas · May 29, 2017, 07:04 PM

That's not a firing gun, that's for sure.

I think I'd take it to a good smith for preservation.
I know I've had one of my inherited guns cerrakoted, but that might be all wrong for yours.

Thorough cleaning, derusted as needed, and sealed away from rust in the correct method to make sure it outlive many more generations.

Condolences on your loss.

May 22, 2017, 08:14 PM	#1
NUKE HUNTER Member Join Date: August 22, 2009 Location: dutchess county, new york Posts: 85	old shotgun i just inherited IMG_2406.JPG IMG_2396.JPG IMG_2391.JPGmy father just passed and I just inherited all his guns, this one gun he had when he was in Italy, its a 16 gauge sxs with external hammers and two triggers, its old but id like to know more. I have no plans to sell it as it will go to my son so any help will be greatly appreciated. on the strap in the middle of the barrels it says"fusil eprouve aux poudres blanches" on the end of barrels near the receiver the left barrel says in gold lettering "damas crolle", then "extra full" on the right barrel. I know what all this means but could someone tell me was it a popular French gun and what was the circulation ? any other info would be great. thank you for the help jerry Last edited by NUKE HUNTER; May 23, 2017 at 07:14 PM.

May 22, 2017, 10:42 PM	#3
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,795	All markings and CLEAR pictures of the gun from as many angles as practical will help. Check the action when open and the barrels under the forearm for markings, as well. Unless you can find an actual name (and better yet, address) don't get your hopes up about a positive ID. Guns of that type were made by both big makers and one man shops, literally from the later 1800s until the Second World war. With the markings you found, I would venture it was made west of the Rhine. But, that's not an absolute. Belgian, French, or Italian would be my guess, as the English, German, and Spanish makers usually used their own languages. I wish you luck, hopefully you will find some other marking(s) that allow for a better ID. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

May 23, 2017, 12:17 PM	#5
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	My condolences on your loss. "...a popular French gun..." More likely one of the hordes of Belgian made shotguns. Before W.W. I there were hundreds of small shops around Liege churning out low end shotguns by the hundreds. Look for proof marks under the forestock. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

May 23, 2017, 02:24 PM	#6
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,440	Take the barrels off and take clear pics of all proof, inspection and other markings on the underside of the barrels and the receiver __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

May 23, 2017, 07:19 PM	#7
NUKE HUNTER Member Join Date: August 22, 2009 Location: dutchess county, new york Posts: 85	first time with pics,be kind please IMG_2389.JPG IMG_2404.JPG IMG_2398.JPG

May 22, 2017, 09:39 PM	#2
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,532	Nothing you have said shows the make or age of the gun, except that nitro proof Damascus is very late 19th or very early 20th century.

May 23, 2017, 11:08 AM	#4
NUKE HUNTER Member Join Date: August 22, 2009 Location: dutchess county, new york Posts: 85	Thank you guys for the info, I'll try to get the pictures up soon. Jerry

May 23, 2017, 07:26 PM	#8
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,440	I cannot make out the proof marks on the barrels. See if any of the Belgian (or other Nationality) proof marks here: http://www.nramuseum.com/media/940944/proofmarks.pdf Match the markings on your gun __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

May 23, 2017, 07:55 PM	#9
NUKE HUNTER Member Join Date: August 22, 2009 Location: dutchess county, new york Posts: 85	thank you for your condolences, there are a lot of faint markings all over that area and overlapping, just wasn't struck hard enough? this is the best I could do: the most obvious is "D FRECS" then "50 PLOME or PLOMBES"? then "1 GR 81 POUDRE"? then "BCN"? all these markings were on both barrels and all over the place, very sketchy I used a magnifying glass and different flashlights from different angles. my father came from a dirt poor town, no water or electric in his shack. I'm thinking that the gun is not high quality or popular any info would be cool thank you

May 23, 2017, 07:55 PM	#10
sgms Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2010 Location: Arizona or Ohio depending Posts: 1,021	The marks are not clear but near as I can tell look rather like Belgian black powder proofs. But do not hold me to that, only a maybe from the picture.

May 23, 2017, 08:08 PM	#11
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,440	What might help with the marks is to take a piece of white chalk and see if that helps highlight them __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

May 23, 2017, 08:15 PM	#12
NUKE HUNTER Member Join Date: August 22, 2009 Location: dutchess county, new york Posts: 85	i'll try the white chalk trick tomorrow, thanks for the tip there was one marking on both barrels that I had written down but forgot it was "17.0" is that what the barrel was load tested?

May 23, 2017, 08:17 PM	#13
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	"Damas crolle" would seem to mean "Crolie Damascus", since the only meaning I know of for "Croile" is as a proper name. It is probably the maker of the gun or at least of the barrels. The proof marks are Belgian, not French and consistent with a Liege-made gun for black or low pressure smokeless ("white") powder. I can't identify the other markings except that "poudre" means "powder" and "plombe" is lead, the metal. I strongly suggest you treat the gun as an heirloom and keep it in memory of your father, but not attempt to fire it. Jim

May 23, 2017, 08:25 PM	#15
NUKE HUNTER Member Join Date: August 22, 2009 Location: dutchess county, new york Posts: 85	my father went back to Italy in 1995? just to get that gun, went through hell to get it here. he actually went rabbit hunting with it once, he fired both barrels at a cottontail with his head turned, missed the rabbit but was happy a heck his face was still there. never seen him so happy. he retired it right after that. this gun is going to stay in the family for sure jim

May 23, 2017, 08:47 PM	#16
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	Belgian elg in oval, perron, and what looks like the 16 g shotgun proof. Probably late 19th century, damask barrel in poor shape - don't shoot it. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

May 23, 2017, 09:29 PM	#17
Teddy Bear Junior Member Join Date: March 10, 2015 Location: FEMA REIGON V Posts: 3	I can't help you any nuke, but that's a nice ole shotgun.

May 28, 2017, 06:05 PM	#18
NUKE HUNTER Member Join Date: August 22, 2009 Location: dutchess county, new york Posts: 85	thank you guys for the help

May 29, 2017, 07:04 PM	#19
Bluecthomas Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2017 Posts: 102	That's not a firing gun, that's for sure. I think I'd take it to a good smith for preservation. I know I've had one of my inherited guns cerrakoted, but that might be all wrong for yours. Thorough cleaning, derusted as needed, and sealed away from rust in the correct method to make sure it outlive many more generations. Condolences on your loss.

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