C&R regulations

Gunplummer · September 9, 2015, 05:18 PM

I recently looked at a parts gun on an auction and it was listed as "No FFL required". It was missing the barrel. I questioned the seller and he said he had a C&R license and if the barrel was missing it was a "Non-gun". Guessing at the serial #, I would say it was made in the thirty's. I dropped out because it did not sound right to me. Anybody know about this kind of thing? Sounds wrong to me.

mapsjanhere · September 9, 2015, 05:29 PM

In nearly all cases the relevant part is the receiver as it carries the serial number. Barrels are typically freely transferable in the US while you need a FFL transfer even for a stripped receiver.

emcon5 · September 9, 2015, 06:26 PM

Yeah, the action is the gun.

James K · September 9, 2015, 08:31 PM

If it is a revolver, it might be able to fire without the barrel; most modern revolvers will.

Jim

Cheapshooter · September 9, 2015, 09:35 PM

Not having a barrel doesn't make it C&R. Being manufactured in the 30's does.
Think unless it was super cheap I would have let it go also. Not as much because of questions as to C&R eligibility, but rather because the seller doesn't appear to know what he is talking about.

hartcreek · September 10, 2015, 01:50 AM

I bought a bag of Savage parts that way. Several frames and barrels and slides and no form(s) filed. Not a problem.

Gunplummer · September 10, 2015, 04:00 AM

Was your bag of parts shipped across state lines? Personal property at a yard sale is one thing, selling online and shipping another. It was a rifle, it just seemed a little weird to me (And illegal). I don't know how a C&R license works, but would not the person on the receiving end need one too?

jonnyc · September 10, 2015, 07:27 AM

"I don't know how a C&R license works, but would not the person on the receiving end need one too?"

The shipper needs nothing; the C&R is for the one receiving the firearm.

emcon5 · September 10, 2015, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Not having a barrel doesn't make it C&R. Being manufactured in the 30's does.
Think unless it was super cheap I would have let it go also. Not as much because of questions as to C&R eligibility, but rather because the seller doesn't appear to know what he is talking about.

C&R eligibility doesn't enter in to it. Seller is making the claim that a rifle action is not a firearm because it doesn't have a barrel, and therefore a FFL is not required for interstate trasnfers. Frankly, the seller is an idiot.

If that was the case, anyone should be able to call up Aero Precision or DPMS and order a stripped AR15 lower Receiver.

Cheapshooter · September 11, 2015, 10:13 AM

Quote:

C&R eligibility doesn't enter in to it. Seller is making the claim that a rifle action is not a firearm because it doesn't have a barrel, and therefore a FFL is not required for interstate trasnfers. Frankly, the seller is an idiot.

Only mentioned C&R eligibility because the sellers C&R license, and age of the firearm were mentioned in the OP.

Quote:

I questioned the seller and he said he had a C&R license and if the barrel was missing it was a "Non-gun". Guessing at the serial #, I would say it was made in the thirty's.

And yes, the seller doesn't know what he is talking about.

johnm1 · September 12, 2015, 09:44 PM

Not that it will make the seller look any less smart (hate using the word stupid) but, correct me if I'm wrong, without a barrel it isn't C&R anymore. Doesn't a C&R need to be in its original configuration to keep its classification as a C&R?

tobnpr · September 13, 2015, 12:33 PM

^^^

Generally, yes- though some modifications, like a REPRODUCTION stock on a rifle- will not change it's status.

I am amazed at how often sellers on sites like GB either don't know the ATF regs, or just choose to roll the dice on a trip to Club Fed.

Most common thing I see are stripped barreled actions, being sold as "C&R eligible"- and that's patently false. They need to go to an FFL, period- but I guarantee you can go to that auction site any day and find a half dozen listings like that.

emcon5 · September 14, 2015, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Most common thing I see are stripped barreled actions, being sold as "C&R eligible"- and that's patently false. They need to go to an FFL, period- but I guarantee you can go to that auction site any day and find a half dozen listings like that.

Most if not all of the major C&R vendors have sold barreled actions as C&R. Off the top of my head, Century, SAMCO, R-Guns and SOG have all sold barreled actions as C&R, and they get audited much more often than you average C&R holder.

In fact, Samco has a few listed right now:
https://www.samcoglobal.com/1-swed-SM38.html
https://www.samcoglobal.com/1-M24-47.html

on edit: SOG still lists Enfield Jungle carbine barreled actions, but are out of stock, and you need to be logged in to see it.

Here is the Wayback Machine copy of the Rguns bolt action rifle page from 2011, showing both Mosin 91/30 and K98 barreled actions as C&R.

https://web.archive.org/web/20110505...les-bolt.shtml

I bought one of the K98 barreled actions, and turned it into this:

Samco has been selling them for years (since at least 1997 according to the Wayback machine), and Rguns had the RC K98 Barreled actions for several years (according to the Wayback machine from at least Dec 2008 to Nov 2012) before they finally ran out.

The argument could made, that an otherwise intact barreled action is unmodified, just missing parts.

If you take the view that a barreled action is not C&R, how many parts are allowed to be missing before a gun loses C&R status? The stacking swivel screw fell out of my M1, and the swivel fell off, did it lose C&R status?

Just about every vendor has sold "Gunsmith Specials" with missing parts. I don't see a barreled action as any different, provided what you get is in the original configuration.

The "Original Configuration" thing is really the poster child for executive overreach. It is not mentioned in the regulations, it is a ruling ATF made (ATF-85-10), in response to a law passed which they didn't like (requiring them to allow importation of C&Rs), which they tried to limit as much as they possibly could.

They then applied it globally, which in my layman's opinion is not reflected in the regulations. The regs says a C&R must be one of three things to qualify. ATF says,"never mind that, a C&R is what we say it is".

The fact remains, pretty much all the big C&R vendors have sold (or as noted by Samco, currently sell) otherwise unmodified barreled actions or you-fix-em/gunsmith specials as C&R eligible.

Do you think they would do that if ATF didn't think it was legal?

Of course none of that applies to the original question. A bare receiver is still a firearm, and the seller is still an idiot.

Gunplummer · September 14, 2015, 03:59 PM

This WAS on Gunbroker.com.

tobnpr · September 15, 2015, 05:31 PM

Not an attorney, but ATF ruling 85-10 would seem to say that barreled actions are a no-go as C&R status.

Quote:

Held, to be importable under 18 U.S.C. 925(e), surplus military firearms must be classified as curios or relics by ATF. Applications by licensed importers to import frames or receivers alone of surplus military curio or relic firearms will not be approved under section 925(e). Surplus military firearms will not be classified as curios or relics, and applications for permits to import such firearms approved, unless they are assembled in their original military configuration.

https://www.atf.gov/file/55396/download

To me, the key words are "original military configuration".
But, ATF is- probably intentionally- vague on this. I don't have an extra 20 large to spend on an attorney to find out. I know that some of the online vendors do / have done it. It would be difficult for ATF to know from the disposition record whether a firearm imported as a C&R was actually sold complete- or they ditched the split stock and sold only the barreled action.

emcon5 · September 15, 2015, 05:44 PM

I do see a difference between a bare action as mentioned in ATF-85-10 and an otherwise unmolested barreled action as sold by most of the milsurp specialists over the years.

This fact that it can be fired, and returned to "original military configuration" by just about anyone capable of handling a screwdriver. It really is just missing parts. Yeah, big parts, but still parts, and no special skill or tools are required.

And despite ATF's claims to the contrary, a German K98 Barreled action is more of interest to collectors than a complete rifle that some schmoe screwed some Weaver bases on.

Gunplummer · September 16, 2015, 03:12 AM

This was a commercial rifle. That make any difference?

emcon5 · September 16, 2015, 03:52 PM

No, because a bare receiver is still a firearm, regardless if it started out as a commercial or military gun. C&R status (and the whole side discussion by tobnpr and I) is irrelevant, the seller is claiming an action without a barrel is not a firearm, and therefore does not require a FFL to be transferred to a buyer in a different state.

He is wrong.

September 9, 2015, 05:18 PM	#1
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	C&R regulations I recently looked at a parts gun on an auction and it was listed as "No FFL required". It was missing the barrel. I questioned the seller and he said he had a C&R license and if the barrel was missing it was a "Non-gun". Guessing at the serial #, I would say it was made in the thirty's. I dropped out because it did not sound right to me. Anybody know about this kind of thing? Sounds wrong to me.

September 9, 2015, 05:29 PM	#2
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	In nearly all cases the relevant part is the receiver as it carries the serial number. Barrels are typically freely transferable in the US while you need a FFL transfer even for a stripped receiver. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

September 9, 2015, 09:35 PM	#5
Cheapshooter Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2007 Location: Missouri Posts: 8,306	Not having a barrel doesn't make it C&R. Being manufactured in the 30's does. Think unless it was super cheap I would have let it go also. Not as much because of questions as to C&R eligibility, but rather because the seller doesn't appear to know what he is talking about. __________________ Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING!

September 10, 2015, 07:27 AM	#8
jonnyc Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2009 Location: PA Posts: 1,731	"I don't know how a C&R license works, but would not the person on the receiving end need one too?" The shipper needs nothing; the C&R is for the one receiving the firearm. __________________ 2024 PA Cartridge Collector Show; Aug. 16-17, 2024!!! Buy...Sell...Trade All Types of Ammunition & Ordnance PM or email me for 2024 show details.

September 12, 2015, 09:44 PM	#11
johnm1 Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2006 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 652	Not that it will make the seller look any less smart (hate using the word stupid) but, correct me if I'm wrong, without a barrel it isn't C&R anymore. Doesn't a C&R need to be in its original configuration to keep its classification as a C&R? __________________ John M. Mesa, AZ

September 9, 2015, 06:26 PM	#3
emcon5 Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 1999 Location: High Desert NV Posts: 2,850	Yeah, the action is the gun.

September 9, 2015, 08:31 PM	#4
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	If it is a revolver, it might be able to fire without the barrel; most modern revolvers will. Jim

September 10, 2015, 01:50 AM	#6
hartcreek Junior member Join Date: April 22, 2014 Location: Washington Posts: 1,549	I bought a bag of Savage parts that way. Several frames and barrels and slides and no form(s) filed. Not a problem.

September 10, 2015, 04:00 AM	#7
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	Was your bag of parts shipped across state lines? Personal property at a yard sale is one thing, selling online and shipping another. It was a rifle, it just seemed a little weird to me (And illegal). I don't know how a C&R license works, but would not the person on the receiving end need one too?

September 13, 2015, 12:33 PM	#12
tobnpr Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2010 Location: Tampa Bay Posts: 4,556	^^^ Generally, yes- though some modifications, like a REPRODUCTION stock on a rifle- will not change it's status. I am amazed at how often sellers on sites like GB either don't know the ATF regs, or just choose to roll the dice on a trip to Club Fed. Most common thing I see are stripped barreled actions, being sold as "C&R eligible"- and that's patently false. They need to go to an FFL, period- but I guarantee you can go to that auction site any day and find a half dozen listings like that. __________________ Remington 700/Savage Rebarreling /Action Blueprinting 07 FFL /Mosin-Nagant Custom Shop/Bent Bolts Genuine Cerakote Applicator www.biggorillagunworks.com

September 14, 2015, 03:59 PM	#14
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	This WAS on Gunbroker.com.

September 15, 2015, 05:44 PM	#16
emcon5 Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 1999 Location: High Desert NV Posts: 2,850	I do see a difference between a bare action as mentioned in ATF-85-10 and an otherwise unmolested barreled action as sold by most of the milsurp specialists over the years. This fact that it can be fired, and returned to "original military configuration" by just about anyone capable of handling a screwdriver. It really is just missing parts. Yeah, big parts, but still parts, and no special skill or tools are required. And despite ATF's claims to the contrary, a German K98 Barreled action is more of interest to collectors than a complete rifle that some schmoe screwed some Weaver bases on.

September 16, 2015, 03:12 AM	#17
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	This was a commercial rifle. That make any difference?

September 16, 2015, 03:52 PM	#18
emcon5 Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 1999 Location: High Desert NV Posts: 2,850	No, because a bare receiver is still a firearm, regardless if it started out as a commercial or military gun. C&R status (and the whole side discussion by tobnpr and I) is irrelevant, the seller is claiming an action without a barrel is not a firearm, and therefore does not require a FFL to be transferred to a buyer in a different state. He is wrong.