Help Identifying Percussion Conversion 1/2 Scale musket

daveatjohnx · July 10, 2015, 12:11 PM

After 55 years collecting and dealing in antique firearms I have found one I've never seen. Can anyone help me identify this unique conversion? The lock is on a 1/2 Scale 69 cal. musket that looks to be either French, Belgian or perhaps Austrian.

Here are a couple of photos of the lock:

http://s264.photobucket.com/user/dav...d.jpg.html?o=1

http://s264.photobucket.com/user/dav...tml?sort=3&o=0

aarondhgraham · July 10, 2015, 02:25 PM

I have no idea what it is,,,
But I do have an additional question.

Has that remaining part of the frizzen(?) been converted into a type of safety?

It looks like it could rotate down and prevent the hammer from striking the percussion cap.

Was that common in flintlock to percussion cap conversions?

Aarond

.

Pahoo · July 10, 2015, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Has that remaining part of the frizzen(?) been converted into a type of safety

I find this post of special interest and my SWAG in this is that indeed it's an original safety. That is not to saw that this did not start out as a flinter. If indeed it was converted, the safety was part of the conversion. Seems like added work but there just might be a good reason. A shooter could walk around with his musket capped and ready. .....

I have an old Snaphaunce lock that I use as a demo, during our training classes. Have used it for about five years and decided it was time to clean, I discovered that it too has a mechanical safety. ....

Be Safe !!!

gyvel · July 10, 2015, 06:06 PM

My semi-educated guess would be that the device is not only a safety, but a clever way to keep the cap from falling off.

bedbugbilly · July 10, 2015, 08:15 PM

I could get the photos of the lock downloaded but nothing else. Do you have a photo of the entire musket - overall length, etc.

You refer to it as a 1/2 scale 69 caliber? Is it 69 caliber? if it was a true half scale, a 59 caliber would not be 69 . . . it would be half of that bore or around a 334 - 36 caliber smoothbore.

Are you sure this is a "1/2" scale or is it a "musketoon"?

James K · July 10, 2015, 09:22 PM

The device is called a cap guard, or nipple guard. Here is some information on the idea and a different variation

http://www.google.com/patents/US19213

If the gun is actually a half scale model, it was probably made either as a salesman's sample or a patent model. A third possibility is that it was made for the son of a high-ranking military officer or political figure associated with the military.

Jim

**Mike Irwin** · July 12, 2015, 09:12 AM

First, I don't think it's a conversion. Judging by the lock, lock plate, and barrel, it appears that it was made as a percussion gun.

As Jim says, this is a cap guard lock. Not particularly common, and primarily used in Europe, I think, but not used particularly often.

It could be a salesman's sample, it could be a patent sample, or I'm wondering if it could be a cadet rifle.

James K · July 12, 2015, 02:38 PM

I am a bit confused about the "1/2 scale" description. Is the whole gun, including the lock, 1/2 scale? Or is only the barrel cut down? If the former, a cadet musket would be unlikely - the gun would be too small for the average cadet age and usually cadet muskets were simply shortened versions of the standard musket.

Jim

mapsjanhere · July 12, 2015, 07:35 PM

Of course, half scale of a .69 musket gets you close to a .36 cal squirrel rifle

James K · July 13, 2015, 08:10 AM

A true half scale would have a short and thin buttstock, a thin foreend, a scaled down lock, etc. It would be a "toy" musket, not suitable for any adult or late teenager. From the look of the lock and the area around it, I doubt that the gun is truly half scale, but we have to wait on the OP for better pictures or more information.

Jim

daveatjohnx · July 13, 2015, 11:10 AM

bedbugbilly · July 13, 2015, 07:07 PM

Thanks for the additional photos. It appears that the upper barrel band is missing?''This looks more like a "musketoon" to me - for some reason, it says "sea service" to e but I am not sure - probably because of the brass furniture. And perhaps so because of the nipple cover. It's a nice piece.

Hawg · July 13, 2015, 07:43 PM

It is military and I believe its Austrian. I do think it was converted from flint. The barrel hasn't been cut as it still has the bayonet lug.

James K · July 13, 2015, 09:53 PM

I will vote for Belgian, possibly made for the Swiss. It has a short barrel (probably original, given the bayonet lug), but certainly is not a half scale model. I am willing to be educated, but I know of no military use of a cap guard. Possibly the inventor of the system just wanted to make a trial/demonstration piece and looked around for an old milsurp to try it on.

It could be a reworked flintlock or the "frizzen" spring and screw could have been added by whoever did the other work; it is an obvious way to get the cap guard to work.

I am afraid that it may very well remain another of the many mysteries to be found in the gun collecting hobby, but it is interesting. Thanks for showing it to us, daveatjohnx.

Jim

mapsjanhere · July 14, 2015, 12:44 PM

My vote is Bavarian, the crown over L mark has a distinct German font, most likely on of the Ludwigs.

Hawg · July 14, 2015, 09:07 PM

I didn't mean to infer the cap guard was original military but the trigger guard looks Austrian.

mapsjanhere · August 16, 2015, 06:54 AM

Found it! It's a Prussian borderguard gun UM 1840. They were specifically designed with a safety to be carried loaded (unlike military weapons that were typically only loaded when needed). DWJ 7/15 has a lengthy article on the weapon.

mapsjanhere · August 18, 2015, 10:43 AM

Did some more research. According to this site, there is only ONE known gun of this type. As their picture us different than the one in the DWJ, that's not quite true, but it seems to be an extremely rare gun.

Germans btw are not too enamored with originality, so a professional restore and replacement of the missing front band might be appropriate.

daveatjohnx · August 18, 2015, 11:51 AM

I really wish to thank everyone who has helped me with this one. I've been collecting and selling for almost 60 years and followed my Dad who started in 1927. This was the first musket like this I had ever seen.

Thanks,
Dave

July 10, 2015, 02:25 PM	#2
aarondhgraham Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma Posts: 8,638	I have no idea what it is,,, I have no idea what it is,,, But I do have an additional question. Has that remaining part of the frizzen(?) been converted into a type of safety? It looks like it could rotate down and prevent the hammer from striking the percussion cap. Was that common in flintlock to percussion cap conversions? Aarond . __________________ Never ever give an enemy the advantage of a verbal threat. Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once. Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it? Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)

July 10, 2015, 06:06 PM	#4
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	My semi-educated guess would be that the device is not only a safety, but a clever way to keep the cap from falling off. __________________ As always, YMMV. __________________________________________ MIIAA SIFE

July 10, 2015, 08:15 PM	#5
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,287	I could get the photos of the lock downloaded but nothing else. Do you have a photo of the entire musket - overall length, etc. You refer to it as a 1/2 scale 69 caliber? Is it 69 caliber? if it was a true half scale, a 59 caliber would not be 69 . . . it would be half of that bore or around a 334 - 36 caliber smoothbore. Are you sure this is a "1/2" scale or is it a "musketoon"? __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

July 12, 2015, 09:12 AM	#7
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,388	First, I don't think it's a conversion. Judging by the lock, lock plate, and barrel, it appears that it was made as a percussion gun. As Jim says, this is a cap guard lock. Not particularly common, and primarily used in Europe, I think, but not used particularly often. It could be a salesman's sample, it could be a patent sample, or I'm wondering if it could be a cadet rifle. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

July 12, 2015, 07:35 PM	#9
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	Of course, half scale of a .69 musket gets you close to a .36 cal squirrel rifle __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

July 10, 2015, 09:22 PM	#6
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The device is called a cap guard, or nipple guard. Here is some information on the idea and a different variation http://www.google.com/patents/US19213 If the gun is actually a half scale model, it was probably made either as a salesman's sample or a patent model. A third possibility is that it was made for the son of a high-ranking military officer or political figure associated with the military. Jim

July 12, 2015, 02:38 PM	#8
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I am a bit confused about the "1/2 scale" description. Is the whole gun, including the lock, 1/2 scale? Or is only the barrel cut down? If the former, a cadet musket would be unlikely - the gun would be too small for the average cadet age and usually cadet muskets were simply shortened versions of the standard musket. Jim

July 13, 2015, 08:10 AM	#10
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	A true half scale would have a short and thin buttstock, a thin foreend, a scaled down lock, etc. It would be a "toy" musket, not suitable for any adult or late teenager. From the look of the lock and the area around it, I doubt that the gun is truly half scale, but we have to wait on the OP for better pictures or more information. Jim

July 13, 2015, 11:10 AM	#11
daveatjohnx Member Join Date: July 10, 2015 Posts: 15	Many Thanks for the Help I appreciate all the help; and hope these photos will help. The musket is stamped with serial number 1 on all parts including the barrel and stock. http://s264.photobucket.com/user/dav...tml?sort=3&o=9 http://s264.photobucket.com/user/dav...tml?sort=3&o=0 http://s264.photobucket.com/user/dav...tml?sort=3&o=1 http://s264.photobucket.com/user/dav...tml?sort=3&o=2 http://s264.photobucket.com/user/dav...tml?sort=3&o=3 http://s264.photobucket.com/user/dav...tml?sort=3&o=4 http://s264.photobucket.com/user/dav...tml?sort=3&o=5 http://s264.photobucket.com/user/dav...tml?sort=3&o=6 http://s264.photobucket.com/user/dav...tml?sort=3&o=7 http://s264.photobucket.com/user/dav...tml?sort=3&o=8 The white on the end of the barrel is from dried adhesive tape and I have not yet cleaned the gun. Hope all the photos help.

July 13, 2015, 07:07 PM	#12
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,287	Thanks for the additional photos. It appears that the upper barrel band is missing?''This looks more like a "musketoon" to me - for some reason, it says "sea service" to e but I am not sure - probably because of the brass furniture. And perhaps so because of the nipple cover. It's a nice piece. __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

July 13, 2015, 07:43 PM	#13
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	It is military and I believe its Austrian. I do think it was converted from flint. The barrel hasn't been cut as it still has the bayonet lug.

July 13, 2015, 09:53 PM	#14
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I will vote for Belgian, possibly made for the Swiss. It has a short barrel (probably original, given the bayonet lug), but certainly is not a half scale model. I am willing to be educated, but I know of no military use of a cap guard. Possibly the inventor of the system just wanted to make a trial/demonstration piece and looked around for an old milsurp to try it on. It could be a reworked flintlock or the "frizzen" spring and screw could have been added by whoever did the other work; it is an obvious way to get the cap guard to work. I am afraid that it may very well remain another of the many mysteries to be found in the gun collecting hobby, but it is interesting. Thanks for showing it to us, daveatjohnx. Jim

July 14, 2015, 12:44 PM	#15
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	My vote is Bavarian, the crown over L mark has a distinct German font, most likely on of the Ludwigs. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

July 14, 2015, 09:07 PM	#16
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	I didn't mean to infer the cap guard was original military but the trigger guard looks Austrian.

August 16, 2015, 06:54 AM	#17
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	Found it! It's a Prussian borderguard gun UM 1840. They were specifically designed with a safety to be carried loaded (unlike military weapons that were typically only loaded when needed). DWJ 7/15 has a lengthy article on the weapon. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

August 18, 2015, 10:43 AM	#18
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	Did some more research. According to this site, there is only ONE known gun of this type. As their picture us different than the one in the DWJ, that's not quite true, but it seems to be an extremely rare gun. Germans btw are not too enamored with originality, so a professional restore and replacement of the missing front band might be appropriate. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

August 18, 2015, 11:51 AM	#19
daveatjohnx Member Join Date: July 10, 2015 Posts: 15	I really wish to thank everyone who has helped me with this one. I've been collecting and selling for almost 60 years and followed my Dad who started in 1927. This was the first musket like this I had ever seen. Thanks, Dave