Japanese contract Czech vz -24 - Page 2

RC20 · January 9, 2018, 01:06 PM

Interesting area.

It does seem that there is a much higher correlation between Italian Carcano rifles going to Japan.

They had the subs to do it with, as nuts as it seems. The round for it made sense.

One insanely long round trip though.

tangolima · January 9, 2018, 07:38 PM

Arisaka type I is chambered in 6.5mm Jap, not 6.5mm carcano. It made way more logistical sense than 7.9mm Mauser.

-TL

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

RC20 · January 9, 2018, 07:48 PM

If my research is correct, while it was made by Carcano, it was chamber in 6.5 x 50 Jap

Wyosmith · January 14, 2018, 06:43 PM

Well I know more now than when I first read the OP.
I stand corrected too.

Good to know.

RC20 · January 15, 2018, 04:50 PM

I have done some follow up and asked the CMP forum.

Not real answers yet but I do need to add into this an item I had missed and was brought to my attention.

For a bizzare and twisted unknow reaons, the plot thickens.

Some Japanese aircraft had some 7.92 x 57 machine guns!.

They tended to be defensive armament .

The Judy dive bomber had a pair of 7.7s up front and the 7.92 German copy in the rear.

So you have an aircraft with two totally different ammo types that are in the same 30 caliber class performance wise.

I could see a 50 caliber for a rear defensive gun (or German/Japan equivalent ) but two 30 caliber class?

They procurement was truly nutty.

Other data is that Japan did not really have Marines as such. They were not elite invasion forces.

And the rilfe armament for what they did have was the 6.5 Jap.

fourbore · January 15, 2018, 09:35 PM

The first photo that shows characters in a cartouche burned into the stock is Chinese. My best advisor tells me it literally translates to "four east" . That maybe a location near Bejing or more likely those words have a military meaning.

Sorry no links, you can take my word or use that to direct your research. No shortage of very smart Chinese immigrants in this country. I meant to say it is not Japanese text.

Liulfr · January 16, 2018, 02:41 AM

Got the rifle in just yesterday and boy golly, was it a piece of work. Literally all exposed metal was rusted and all screws/ wood contacting surfaces were rusted to all get out. Unfortunately, this meant almost total destruction of the stock to remove the barrel and receiver for cleaning and proper maintenance. The rifle body itself (stock removed) is severely rusted and for all practical purposes, unshootable in its current state. Major work and replacement of parts will need to be done to return it to a usable state.

Initial observation of the stock revealed several splits near the rear of the receiver and rotting of the wood around metal bits. Screws were rusted badly and have yet to be completely removed for fear of snapping them in their threads (already managed to do this with a capture screw

). After removing the stock, I found severe rusting and pitting on all areas of the rifle body. I honestly doubt it can be disassembled without breaking but I guess we will see tomorrow. The barrel was effectively a smooth-bore but rust free, at least on the internals. The receiver appears to to have no rusting on the internals. Bolt has a broken safety lever as well as a very mild amount of rusting. The rear sight is completely trashed, but I was able to remove it. Front sight is missing its' protective hood, but otherwise appears serviceable.

It is a shame that this rifle was left in such disrepair. It appears to have been dropped in a tank of brine or the ocean and set in some storage room for years, without ever being disassembled or cleaned. I would honestly much rather be cleaning out cosmoline than dealing with the rust pile, but such is buying milsurp.

Additionally, I thank everyone who took the time to assist me in deciphering those markings. I've learned a lot and am grateful for your input!

fourbore · January 16, 2018, 07:15 AM

I wish you could have gone slower on the dis-assembly. I think that rifle would have been a worthy restoration project and that includes the stock.

RC20 · January 16, 2018, 03:54 PM

Sounds like it was a pretty well a lost cause.

I have direct experience on what long term affects submersion has on a gun.

My dads 1903A3 Sporter was under salt water for a week.

It was recovered, but 40 years latter when shot, the chamber was found to be severely trashed. The only part of the gun that was, but it sure was an ugly piece of brass that came out with the last firing (and never again, we replaced the barrel)

It had been used off and on since its recovery and no issues.

Probably a crack or scarfing in the chamber got corrosion going under the metal and then manifested itself.

Liulfr · January 16, 2018, 11:52 PM

Disassembly went well for the most part. Only thing left to remove is barrel from the receiver then I should be able to start cleaning and rebuilding parts. And unfortunately, restoring the stock wasn't an option. The wood around the split was rotted too much to repair. As much as I hate to say this, the best I will be able to do with this rifle is purchase original parts (unmatching) and make it as close to original as possible. It will be ugly and pitted, but hopefully an heirloom; so the monetary value of the rifle won't matter as much as the aesthetic authenticity to its original factory condition (or as close as I can get it).

tobnpr · January 19, 2018, 03:51 PM

For future reference....
No wood is beyond repair unless it's sawdust. "Dry rot" etc. Is repairable with thin viscosity, injectable epoxies. I've restored old, collectible boats (Chris-Crafts) that you'd have never thought could float safely again. Just takes a lot of patience and time- not always worth the effort, but if this piece is genuine it would probably have been worth it.

Consider making an electrolysis tank for the metal parts. Simple to do, and there's nothing more effective for this application. Plenty of videos online for this so no need for me to waste bandwidth going into it here.

Liulfr · January 19, 2018, 06:22 PM

Quote:

For future reference....
No wood is beyond repair unless it's sawdust. "Dry rot" etc. Is repairable with thin viscosity, injectable epoxies. I've restored old, collectible boats (Chris-Crafts) that you'd have never thought could float safely again. Just takes a lot of patience and time- not always worth the effort, but if this piece is genuine it would probably have been worth it.

Consider making an electrolysis tank for the metal parts. Simple to do, and there's nothing more effective for this application. Plenty of videos online for this so no need for me to waste bandwidth going into it here.

I appreciate the advise and I do see the sense in your words. The metal and the wood had fused however, making it impossible for myself (an average Joe with minimal tools/ money) to disassemble in a non-destructive manner. I do wish someone else could have purchased the rifle, so they could invest time and capital into it that I am not able too. But Unfortunately for the rifle, that's not what happened in this case. I am grateful for all the advice I've received so far on this project, as I have learned so much from this community and through my own mistakes.

Liulfr · February 17, 2018, 03:25 AM

Interesting update which will probably be my final post on this thread. Stock mark's turned out to be chinese. Meaning more than likely it started life as a chinese contract rifle.

fourbore · February 19, 2018, 06:53 AM

Glad, I could help out.

AndrewM28 · June 6, 2018, 10:40 AM

Hi All,

New here and first post on forum. I would like to hear some opinions on my 1937 P Series VZ24.

Overall very good condition. No gouges, strong rifling with patina on the bolt.

1937 marked, no crest. Receiver is P1xxx, bolt is P7xxx, floorplate can only make out "386" and stock can just barely make out the C?863. No Asian characters or any other markings what so ever on the rifle.

From this thread and other forums, seems like a Japanese contract or early Chinese captured. Doesn't appear to have seen heavy action in war condition considering the condition of the wood.

Looking forward to your replies !

January 9, 2018, 01:06 PM	#26
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	Interesting area. It does seem that there is a much higher correlation between Italian Carcano rifles going to Japan. They had the subs to do it with, as nuts as it seems. The round for it made sense. One insanely long round trip though. __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

January 9, 2018, 07:48 PM	#28
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	If my research is correct, while it was made by Carcano, it was chamber in 6.5 x 50 Jap __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

January 15, 2018, 04:50 PM	#30
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	I have done some follow up and asked the CMP forum. Not real answers yet but I do need to add into this an item I had missed and was brought to my attention. For a bizzare and twisted unknow reaons, the plot thickens. Some Japanese aircraft had some 7.92 x 57 machine guns!. They tended to be defensive armament . The Judy dive bomber had a pair of 7.7s up front and the 7.92 German copy in the rear. So you have an aircraft with two totally different ammo types that are in the same 30 caliber class performance wise. I could see a 50 caliber for a rear defensive gun (or German/Japan equivalent ) but two 30 caliber class? They procurement was truly nutty. Other data is that Japan did not really have Marines as such. They were not elite invasion forces. And the rilfe armament for what they did have was the 6.5 Jap. __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

January 15, 2018, 09:35 PM	#31
fourbore Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2015 Location: new england Posts: 1,159	The first photo that shows characters in a cartouche burned into the stock is Chinese. My best advisor tells me it literally translates to "four east" . That maybe a location near Bejing or more likely those words have a military meaning. Sorry no links, you can take my word or use that to direct your research. No shortage of very smart Chinese immigrants in this country. I meant to say it is not Japanese text. Last edited by fourbore; January 15, 2018 at 10:07 PM.

January 16, 2018, 02:41 AM	#32
Liulfr Junior Member Join Date: June 5, 2017 Location: California Posts: 14	[Update] Got the rifle in just yesterday and boy golly, was it a piece of work. Literally all exposed metal was rusted and all screws/ wood contacting surfaces were rusted to all get out. Unfortunately, this meant almost total destruction of the stock to remove the barrel and receiver for cleaning and proper maintenance. The rifle body itself (stock removed) is severely rusted and for all practical purposes, unshootable in its current state. Major work and replacement of parts will need to be done to return it to a usable state. Initial observation of the stock revealed several splits near the rear of the receiver and rotting of the wood around metal bits. Screws were rusted badly and have yet to be completely removed for fear of snapping them in their threads (already managed to do this with a capture screw ). After removing the stock, I found severe rusting and pitting on all areas of the rifle body. I honestly doubt it can be disassembled without breaking but I guess we will see tomorrow. The barrel was effectively a smooth-bore but rust free, at least on the internals. The receiver appears to to have no rusting on the internals. Bolt has a broken safety lever as well as a very mild amount of rusting. The rear sight is completely trashed, but I was able to remove it. Front sight is missing its' protective hood, but otherwise appears serviceable. It is a shame that this rifle was left in such disrepair. It appears to have been dropped in a tank of brine or the ocean and set in some storage room for years, without ever being disassembled or cleaned. I would honestly much rather be cleaning out cosmoline than dealing with the rust pile, but such is buying milsurp. Additionally, I thank everyone who took the time to assist me in deciphering those markings. I've learned a lot and am grateful for your input!

January 9, 2018, 07:38 PM	#27
tangolima Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2013 Posts: 3,825	Arisaka type I is chambered in 6.5mm Jap, not 6.5mm carcano. It made way more logistical sense than 7.9mm Mauser. -TL Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

January 14, 2018, 06:43 PM	#29
Wyosmith Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2010 Location: Shoshoni Wyoming Posts: 2,713	Well I know more now than when I first read the OP. I stand corrected too. Good to know.

January 16, 2018, 07:15 AM	#33
fourbore Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2015 Location: new england Posts: 1,159	I wish you could have gone slower on the dis-assembly. I think that rifle would have been a worthy restoration project and that includes the stock.

January 16, 2018, 03:54 PM	#34
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	Sounds like it was a pretty well a lost cause. I have direct experience on what long term affects submersion has on a gun. My dads 1903A3 Sporter was under salt water for a week. It was recovered, but 40 years latter when shot, the chamber was found to be severely trashed. The only part of the gun that was, but it sure was an ugly piece of brass that came out with the last firing (and never again, we replaced the barrel) It had been used off and on since its recovery and no issues. Probably a crack or scarfing in the chamber got corrosion going under the metal and then manifested itself. __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

January 16, 2018, 11:52 PM	#35
Liulfr Junior Member Join Date: June 5, 2017 Location: California Posts: 14	[Update] Disassembly went well for the most part. Only thing left to remove is barrel from the receiver then I should be able to start cleaning and rebuilding parts. And unfortunately, restoring the stock wasn't an option. The wood around the split was rotted too much to repair. As much as I hate to say this, the best I will be able to do with this rifle is purchase original parts (unmatching) and make it as close to original as possible. It will be ugly and pitted, but hopefully an heirloom; so the monetary value of the rifle won't matter as much as the aesthetic authenticity to its original factory condition (or as close as I can get it). Last edited by Liulfr; January 17, 2018 at 12:18 AM.

January 19, 2018, 03:51 PM	#36
tobnpr Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2010 Location: Tampa Bay Posts: 4,556	For future reference.... No wood is beyond repair unless it's sawdust. "Dry rot" etc. Is repairable with thin viscosity, injectable epoxies. I've restored old, collectible boats (Chris-Crafts) that you'd have never thought could float safely again. Just takes a lot of patience and time- not always worth the effort, but if this piece is genuine it would probably have been worth it. Consider making an electrolysis tank for the metal parts. Simple to do, and there's nothing more effective for this application. Plenty of videos online for this so no need for me to waste bandwidth going into it here. __________________ Remington 700/Savage Rebarreling /Action Blueprinting 07 FFL /Mosin-Nagant Custom Shop/Bent Bolts Genuine Cerakote Applicator www.biggorillagunworks.com

February 17, 2018, 03:25 AM	#38
Liulfr Junior Member Join Date: June 5, 2017 Location: California Posts: 14	[RE] Last Update Interesting update which will probably be my final post on this thread. Stock mark's turned out to be chinese. Meaning more than likely it started life as a chinese contract rifle.

February 19, 2018, 06:53 AM	#39
fourbore Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2015 Location: new england Posts: 1,159	Glad, I could help out.

June 6, 2018, 10:40 AM	#40
AndrewM28 Junior Member Join Date: June 5, 2018 Posts: 1	Recent P Series Purchase. Hi All, New here and first post on forum. I would like to hear some opinions on my 1937 P Series VZ24. Overall very good condition. No gouges, strong rifling with patina on the bolt. 1937 marked, no crest. Receiver is P1xxx, bolt is P7xxx, floorplate can only make out "386" and stock can just barely make out the C?863. No Asian characters or any other markings what so ever on the rifle. From this thread and other forums, seems like a Japanese contract or early Chinese captured. Doesn't appear to have seen heavy action in war condition considering the condition of the wood. Looking forward to your replies !