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Old July 16, 2021, 12:27 PM   #51
ligonierbill
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Yep, this old relic will praise that old relic. The .300 Savage was born in 1920, the .308 in 1952...these young kids today! I am a member of a hunting camp that began in 1917. Yes, we are now in the new camp on the site, built in 1941. But if you showed up the opening day of deer season (now the Saturday after Thanksgiving, moved from the traditional Monday), you would find a number of those relics in the gun rack. Ironically, you would only see one .308 - mine. Even that is a rebarreled Mauser from 1935. Not everyone is a traditionalist, but tradition is indeed strong in the hunting community. Practically, the longest shot I know of at that camp was 165 yards, measured with one of those new fangled lasers. Made with a 30-06 (now there's an oldie), but that's not even much of a stretch for a 30-30. Don't equate "love" with "popularity".
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Old July 17, 2021, 07:29 AM   #52
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There's absolutely no doubt that the .308 hurt the .300 Savage... badly.

Acceptance by the US military is an immediate avenue to a cartridge's popularity in the United States and always has been, for a lot of different reasons.

Look, for example, how quickly the .223 overtook the older, and once pretty popular, .222.

The .308 did resolve one nagging shortcoming of the .300 Savage -- the short neck and short, sharp shoulder angle. Those two factors have, over the years, combined to give reloaders problems in lever and semi-auto rifles, problems that aren't as pervasive with the .308.

The short neck also means that the .300 doesn't handle bullets over 165-gr. nearly as gracefully as the .308. With bullets in the 150 to 165 grain range, however, the .300 Savage absolutely SINGS.

My 1936-era 99EG loves 150-gr. flat base bullets, which is, oddly enough, the bullet style and weight used in the original Savage design to mimic (as closely as possible) the specifications of the military .30-06 loading.
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Old July 17, 2021, 07:42 AM   #53
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" I don't see where the commercial success of the .308 due to military adoption has any real connection or bearing on the .300 Savage."

Well, realistically, you're one of the only ones, then. Within 5 years of introduction of the .308 as a military (2 years after it was introduced commercially by Winchester) and commercial round every manufacturer had added it to their lineup of standard chamberings, including Savage.

Sales of .300 Savage chambered rifles, primarily the Model 99, quickly fell off a cliff.

It didn't help that Winchester, the big stick rifle manufacturer in the country, never chambered the .300 Savage in a standard-production rifle. A few Model 70s were made in .300, but they are highly sought after, and are very expensive, collector's items.

I'm probably one of the biggest fans of the .300 on this board, and have been for a LONG time. But I recognize that the .308 quickly stole the .300's thunder as the short-action .30 caliber round in the United States and worldwide.
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Old July 17, 2021, 08:05 AM   #54
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"Alas another thing hindering the 300 Savage was the basic platform of the firearm it was chambered in. While the Savage 99 is a fine rifle, it wasn't a bolt action, and it is heavy when compared to other lever actions."

The .300 Savage in the 99 was quite popular for many years... It was the biggest seller for Savage in the 99 line. It offered something that no other manufacturer could offer at that time in a lever action -- .30-06 class performance in a lever action that could take pointed bullets.

The last American lever action that could do that was the Winchester Model 1895. Compared to the 99, the 95 was heavy, awkward, and the stock design left a LOT to be desired. More than a few people over the years described the 95's stock as a recoil multiplier.

The 95 also wasn't particularly popular in the US.

Total 95 production was about 425,000... not terrible, but not great... but, when you subtract the guns produced for Russia during WW I, the sales figures become rather dismal. 95s manufactured for Russia account for nearly 300,000 of the 95s total production. Another 10,000 or so were manufactured for the US military during the Spanish American war (war ended before they were delivered) and most of those went overseas.

Subtract out also those chambered for .303 British, and total civilian production production for US consumption was about 150,000 over a nearly 40 year manufacturing span.

Savage was selling that many 99s every few years, and after 1920, most of those were chambered in .300 Savage.

As someone else pointed out the 99 was also not a particularly heavy rifle even compared to the 1894 Winchester or the Model 1893 (later the 36, later the 336) Marlin, and neither of those rifles were chambered in a round that approached the .300's ballistics.

In my own experience with the three rifles, the Winchester 1894 is my least favorite simply because it, for me, holds true to the "recoil multiplier" factor of stock design. The Marlin's stock design is much better, and, at least for me, the 99 has the best stock design of all.

Also as others have pointed out, in 1920, when the .300 was introduced, the bolt action hadn't yet risen to the position it now holds. Lever actions ruled in the United States popularity wise. It took three wars (Spanish-American, WW I, and WW II) to really turn that around in this country.
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Old July 17, 2021, 08:39 AM   #55
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my rem 722 in .300 savage is alive and doing well and a fine 300 yard deer-bear rifle, i also have a rem 722 in .308 win and it is a fine 300 yard deer-bear rifle. the 300 yard limite is my fault not either rifles fault. i find both very easy to load for and keep the speeds very close in both, 150 gr nosler BT at 2700 fps.
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Old July 17, 2021, 01:17 PM   #56
Bart B.
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Note the 300 Savage operates at 47,000 psi. That's 15,000 less than the 308 Winchester.
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Old July 17, 2021, 01:45 PM   #57
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rem 722 in 300 savage 42 grs varget 150 gr bullet at 2700+ fps at 44,300 cup. piece of cake for the rem 722 action. rem 722 in .308 win with the same bullet 45 grs imr 4895 at 2700+ fps at 50,000 cup. in the rem 722 bolt actions the 300 savage does quite well. not a animal in the world that would know the difference between the 300 savage and the .308 win when shot.
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Old July 19, 2021, 04:28 PM   #58
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"Would the 270 exist today were it not for Jack O'Conner?"

Or perhaps we should ask; would Jack O'Connor have risen to the level of popularity he did as a gun writer without the .270?
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Old July 19, 2021, 07:50 PM   #59
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Well, given that the .220 Swift still exists today despite years of enmity from a very peeved firearms press in its first 30 years...

I'd say yes. The .270 would still be with us.
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Old July 20, 2021, 05:50 AM   #60
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many decent rifle calibers and rifles have gone by the wayside over the years, it seems today the rifle clan is always moving towards the newest wizz bang rifles-calibers. i like the older rifles and calibers and as a reloader i can still shoot them with a little work getting cases-bullets, i try to keep at least a hundred case and bullets for them and the .300 savage is only one of them.
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Old July 20, 2021, 07:12 AM   #61
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For the most part the calibers are still with us...

The cartridges, on the other hand... not so much.
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Old July 20, 2021, 06:45 PM   #62
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performance

There's no doubt that the performance level of the .300 Savage is more than adequate for whitetails. I've got an '06 carbine that is a vicious kicker and terribly noisy with full power '06 loads. I load it to .300 Savage levels ( [email protected] 2450) and it kills just fine at woods ranges.
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Old August 1, 2021, 04:24 PM   #63
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My Uncle, now 89 and not doing well, just handed off his guns for me to hold onto until his Grandson moves out of California and into a gun freindly State in the future. May be a few decades as he works in the film industry.

Uncle's favorite gun is a well worn Remington 760 Gamemaster pump from the 50's, wearing a 4X Weaver. He shot LOTS of deer with it over the years, he still swears by it now, even as his mind is fading. It's a .300 Savage.

If he can recall where he put the clips, I may hunt with it this fall. Several boxes of vintage ammo (Remington Kleanbore snd Winchester Super X), came with the rifle, along with a TON of empty brass. In my family, ammo was / is a luxury; you buy a box of ammo or two, sight in your rifle and then thereafter, 1 shot equals one deer.

Last edited by shurshot; August 1, 2021 at 05:28 PM.
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Old August 2, 2021, 03:31 PM   #64
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15 thousand PSI less?

Ok, I'm having a little difficulty wrapping my head around how the 300 Savage can produce ballistics in the same ballpark as the 308Win at 15k PSI less. Wouldn't that be a good thing?

I have been reading about the Savage cartridges since I took up reloading after Deros in 1975. I'm college edified and like to think that I can figure on most subjects, the more I figure on this, the more questions I have.

How does it produce nearly equivalent velocities at significantly lower pressure? Is it the place in the pressure curve where the pressure occurs? If the pressure spike is early, perhaps it's defeating all the inertia involved and adding early momentum, allowing for this.

Maybe someone with a newer issue brain cell can explain this, or does it take an engineer to understand and explain?
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Old August 2, 2021, 06:37 PM   #65
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Quote:
How does it produce nearly equivalent velocities at significantly lower pressure?
I don't really have a good answer, but I think some of your confusion is coming from using a specific standard number and general performance numbers and expecting perfect matches.

What is "about the same" or "nearly equivalent"?? specifically??

Is it within 50fps? 100fpr? 200? because that is also a trap.

The trap part is the performance of the individual rifles used in testing. Pick one set and you get "nearly equivalent" swap one of the rifles and you could change to "almost exactly the same" or it might change to "not even close", because every rifle and ammo combination while similar, has the potential to be significantly different then the expected average.

Most things fall in the middle of the bell curve, but there are always things at each end. I've got a Hornday book showing the same speed (2800fps) with the same bullet (150gr) using the same powder (IMR 4064) in BOTH .300 Savage and .308 Win. THe only differences are the Savage had a 24" barrel and used 44.0gr (max) and the .308 used a 22" barrel and 44.9gr (max) of the same powder to get the same speed with the same bullet.

A different pair of rifles would most likely show different numbers. GENERAL similarity would remain the same, but exact specific data would be different. Perhaps a little, perhaps a lot, every example can be different in either direction.
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Old August 4, 2021, 10:08 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP
What is "about the same" or "nearly equivalent"?? specifically??

Is it within 50fps? 100fpr? 200? because that is also a trap.
The .300 Savage case holds about 4 grains less of H20 (42 vs. 46) in its case compared to the .308 Win. This usually equates to a 4-6 fewer grains of powder in the .300 Savage and around 200 FPS difference in velocites on paper with same bullet, powder, and primer and all other things being equal. What I get in the real world is a little closer to the same velocites.

HOWEVER! My two rifles in .300 Savage have 22" and 24" barrels, my .308 has a 20" barrel and my new .308 will have an 18" barrel. So 4 grains more powder is roughly a 10% larger powder charge, and why the .308 operates at higher pressures. And while 200 FPS doesn't seem like alot of extra velocity, it adds up when you start talking about targets beyond normal hunting ranges of the average whitetail hunter.
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Old August 4, 2021, 10:38 AM   #67
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[QUOTE][How does it produce nearly equivalent velocities at significantly lower pressure?/QUOTE]

I'm not going to look up specifics,but as a general rule,folks often get led astray on pressure numbers due to the different processes of measurement.

I suspect the pressure data typical of the 300 Savage would be Copper Units of Pressure (cup) Its an older technology that was the standard a few decades ago. As newer tech had not yet emerged,folks often incorrectly called the cup figure psi.

Its not unusual to see 308 or 7.62 NATO pressure in psi,measured by piezo technology (or other)

PSI does not equal CUP. I don't know the exact numbers,but just as an inaccurate example, 50 k CUP might equal 60k psi. Pressure would be the same,its a different scale of measurement.

While a 60k psi load might be a safe,SAAMI load, 60k CUP would be much higher actual pressure,and probably dangerous.

That said,,the .308 does operate at higher pressure than the 300 Savage.
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Old August 4, 2021, 11:26 AM   #68
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Make the comparison using cartridge data in

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...sting-Copy.pdf
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Old August 22, 2021, 02:05 PM   #69
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308 to 300 savage

Found a take off 300 sav. Savage Barrel and Married it to a Savage 110 accutrigger excellent rifle will be one of the last I'll get rid of.
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