The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old February 4, 2016, 10:43 PM   #1
Prof Young
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 21, 2007
Location: Illinois - down state
Posts: 2,399
Most accurate loads . . .

Loaders:
I shoot/reload 380, 9mm 45lc, 45 auto, and 223 so my experience is limited to reloading for those calibers. I am "experimenting" more, while staying within the minimum and maximum charges as noted in the formulas. I'm starting to think that loads closer to the maximum charge are generally less accurate than loads with a charge in the middle or toward the bottom. Is this generally true in your experience?

Live well, be safe
Prof Young
Prof Young is offline  
Old February 4, 2016, 11:05 PM   #2
Tsquared
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2016
Location: NE Atlanta
Posts: 337
For pistol loads I find that the faster burning powder has a narrow window and it is usually closer to the mid to minimum recommended loads. The slower burning powders have a wider window but that window is near the maximum recommended loads. But there are some powders that just do not like some bullets.

I tend to load faster burning powders for plinking/target ammo and I load them on the lower side maximizing a pound of powder. Any SD rounds usually get nickel plated brass with slower burn rate powders that push the higher velocities. I do not load for velocity but I load for maximum accuracy.
Tsquared is offline  
Old February 4, 2016, 11:13 PM   #3
Prof Young
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 21, 2007
Location: Illinois - down state
Posts: 2,399
Good point.

Tsquared:
Yes, of course. The powder makes a huge difference. My "observation" is limited to the powders I use as well. I need to keep better records.
Thanks for the thoughts.

Live well, be safe
Prof Young
Prof Young is offline  
Old February 5, 2016, 12:32 AM   #4
Metal god
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 6,872
I've been loading rifle for awhile now but pistol for only a year or so .

For rifles , and not completely confirmed but It seems my rifles like a velocity for a particular weight bullet more then anything else . It does not seem to matter much what bullet ( with in reason , I'm talking match bullets ) like 175gr smk or 178gr A-max . as long as my muzzle velocity is around 2560fps . That load will shoot well . powder does not seem to matter much either as long as they are close in burn rate

In this case a 175gr smk @ 2560fps is mid to upper 2/3 charge range of the powders I use . I did not notice the pattern for quite some time . I keep pretty detailed notes on loads and after looking back through all the notes a pattern started to form .

I had tried on many occasions to push those loads faster with the same accuracy but never could do better with out pressure signs and what not .

YMMV and likely will . I just happened to notice this velocity pattern about a year ago

As for pistol , I have no idea . I've not tested enough to come to any conclusions .
__________________
If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive !

I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .

Last edited by Metal god; February 5, 2016 at 02:48 AM.
Metal god is offline  
Old February 5, 2016, 02:17 AM   #5
Clark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 1999
Location: WA, the ever blue state
Posts: 4,678
I can't hit much with handguns compared to some people.
I do the best from a rest with target ammo in a heavy scoped 22 revolver Colt or Smith.

I get the best groups with rifles at 100 yards with wimpy loads.
I get the best groups at 600 yards with hot loads.
__________________
The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books."
"Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist.
Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?
Clark is offline  
Old February 5, 2016, 05:43 AM   #6
DAVID NANCARROW
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 5, 2000
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 1,761
In my experience, it really depends upon the individual firearm more so than the caliber. Some folks get their best accuracy in their 45 1911s with HP-38, W231 or Titegroup for example. My best is nearly a max load of Bullseye behind a 200 gr lead semi wadcutter.

My 308 loves a full load of Reloader 15 behind a 168 or 175 grain Sierra Match King, but others prefer Varget or IMR4064.

Recommendations will get you pointed in the right direction certainly, but then you have to listen to the firearm and what it shows you.
DAVID NANCARROW is offline  
Old February 5, 2016, 06:19 AM   #7
LE-28
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 24, 2012
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 759
Our ability to deal with recoil has a lot to do it also. If you know it's going to be uncomfortable, you won't shoot it as accurately as you would a weak load.
LE-28 is offline  
Old February 5, 2016, 06:24 AM   #8
Mike / Tx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 8, 2000
Posts: 2,101
I'm not an expert shooter by any stretch, but I do shoot some nice groups with a lot of different firearms. I have been shooting since I was 4-5 and loading something for something since I was 8. In this time I have shot who knows how many rounds both at targets and game. But in all that time I also practiced a LOT with many different calibers.

That said, with handguns, most will shoot far more accurately than the person behind them, and better than a lot of folks give them credit for. I find rifles are the same way. Many believe that an off the shelf rifle is only pie plate accurate and unless it has an aluminum bedding block and bull barrel on it you will never achieve MOA or half MOA accuracy. All but two of my rifles are off the shelf with the most being done was a bedding job.

Top end loads are just that, and in most cases it takes practice to shoot them well especially in a handgun. There is a LOT more exposure to muzzle blast and concussion from it with a 4-6" barrel than with a 20" one. Even if there isn't a lot of associated recoil involved with the load, that alone starts to get in the mind of some shooters and they start to get itchy about pulling the trigger. Others aren't bothered at all by the flash or bang but throw in some recoil and they get the same way. Everyone is effected by things differently.

Tailored loads are just that, they are put together for a specific purpose and should be treated as such. Just pouring powder in the case and seating the bullet to the same depth every time is loading, but not tailoring. Once you start to prep cases, adjust seating depth, swap primers, and bullets of the same weight, then your getting there.

I have both rifles and handguns which will shoot just as accurate with top end loads as they do with bottom end ones, and with some there is a world of difference once the charge is lit. When I got my 454, I could shoot it, but it took nearly 3 months of shooting it to become accustomed to the blast and recoil where I could shoot it accurately. Once there it still takes regular practice to stay proficient.

Some powders produce a more energetic recoil impulse even on the low end whee others are nice and smooth. Take the age old target load for a 45 ACP of 4'ish grains of Bullseye under a 200gr cast SWC. How many times has this combo won a competition? Change the powder to Unique, and you can still get those type groups but your recoil is a bit more snappy.

Same with rifles, a 243 loaded with H380 under a 100gr bullet has a nice pop to it, but switch to a similar velocity load using something like 4350 or 4831 and it is still a pop but not as sharp due to the lower powders. On the opposite end of that, I load 3031 under a 130gr bullet for our .270 which gives me right at 2800fps. Very sweet load and VERY accurate. Take the same bullet over a load of 4350, and the recoil, while being close to the same in FTLBS seems to be a bit more harsh. I cannot say for sure as I have never measured it just going by what the book loads say, and the reaction to them from my daughter and my oldest grandson who both seem to prefer the 3031 loads over the rest. Don't get me wrong, they will both saddle up behind anything, but they also have their preferences as well.

I personally found that the CFE Pistol has a decent pop to it even on the low end loads, but I can shoot it very well. Throw my friend behind the same loads and he is all over the place with it. Drop down to the start loads with AA-5 and he is tearing out a ragged hole. Similar velocity from both loads but very different felt recoil.
__________________
LAter,
Mike / TX
Mike / Tx is offline  
Old February 5, 2016, 07:23 PM   #9
603Country
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 6, 2011
Location: Thornton, Texas
Posts: 3,995
If you shoot Nosler bullets, like I do, get their reloading book. My most accurate load with H335 behind the 40 gr Nosler is 27.3 grains. The Nosler book says the most accurate would be 27.5 grains. About the same for my best load with IMR3031 in the 308. Also their suggested best load with IMR4064 in the 260, behind the 100 gr Nosler is what I was already shooting. Same with the 270, H4831sc behind the 130 gr Nosler BT. Been shooting that 270 load for 30 years, well before the sc version of that powder was available.

It can not be coincidence. And it certainly is interesting. And it makes me feel smart, since I was shooting those loads before they told me to.
603Country is offline  
Old February 5, 2016, 07:37 PM   #10
jmr40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 15, 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 10,792
I load for hunting rifles, 308, 30-06, 300 WSM, 338-06, 7mmRM either currently or at least in the past. I've always found best accuracy right at or just below max loads.
jmr40 is offline  
Old February 5, 2016, 08:32 PM   #11
Longshot4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2014
Posts: 868
I alwase load for accuracy. After all what good is velocity if you can't hit the target.

I will start by finding the bullet that should stabilize best with the twist of a rifle. Also the bullet that performs best for the job Hunting or target. I don't believe in paying big bucks for expensive bullets when thare are so many less expensive accurate bullets out thare. All though I shoot factory guns I will make sure they are in good working order. The same goes with pistols.

After I have the bullet I try to find the best powder. Load data will get you in the ball park but lets face it not only thare are a hole lot of powders you can use so take your time and research just two or three powders to work with.

Then start loading at around the minimum load and work up but not all the way to the max. If I have the time and supplies I will start with 5 rounds of each. If I don't have the time and supplies I may just load 3 rounds of each.

Don't worry about the primers at this time just use one choice.

Take them to the range and use a rest to show you what you can do. You need to be looking for group size.

Then try another powder and another if you want to.

Select your best load then try some different primers to see if that helps with rifle loads pistols aren't as touchy as my experience goes.

You should have a fair load at that point. If you want more make sure your rifle is tuned. You can also play around with bullet seating depth... Although you will need to do more research.
Longshot4 is offline  
Old February 22, 2016, 01:01 AM   #12
Prof Young
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 21, 2007
Location: Illinois - down state
Posts: 2,399
Lots of great information . . . Thanks

Thanks for all the thoughts and information. The more I load and shoot the more I realize that every factor, from case manufacturer to crimp, makes a difference in how a round will shoot.

Gotta love this forum. So much to learn.

Live well, be safe
Prof Young
Prof Young is offline  
Old February 23, 2016, 03:00 PM   #13
black mamba
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 13, 2011
Location: SW Florida
Posts: 890
Tsquared's experience mirrors mine. The faster a powder is, the better it likes light loads, and the slower a powder is, the better it likes heavy loads. This is true for handgun powders. Medium burn rates in the Unique, Universal, Accurate #5 range do well with a wide variety of loads from mild to stiff.

With rifle powders, there seems to usually be a couple different accuracy nodes: one right around starting to middling, and another right up against the max load. This seems to be true for most burn rates of rifle powder.
black mamba is offline  
Old February 23, 2016, 08:07 PM   #14
jmorris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 22, 2006
Posts: 3,076
Interesting that I have recently been doing the same thing for a 9mm carbine and the most accurate load I have come up with so far is a 115 grain Winchester JHP and worked up to a load that is beyond "book" max, right at 1400 fps.


Best 10 shots @ 100 yds.



At that distance the bullet matters a lot more than it does at 3 to even 25 yards.

For example a plated 147 around 925 fps didn't even put all 10 on a 14x17" target.



Many years ago the best load I found for my Python was also over published data using again a JHP but 158 grain Speer.

However, different guns and shooters are pretty big variables. Kind of like the reason I always take an accurate .22 with me when I shoot my 50 BMG, if the round makes me get off my routine, all bets are off for accuracy.

Last edited by jmorris; February 23, 2016 at 08:12 PM.
jmorris is offline  
Old February 23, 2016, 09:16 PM   #15
RaySendero
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 23, 2010
Location: US South
Posts: 857
Most accurate loads . . . My Rifles

Quote:
Prof Young asked:

I'm starting to think that loads closer to the maximum charge are generally less accurate than loads with a charge in the middle or toward the bottom.

Is this generally true in your experience?


Prof, No - Not my experience with rifles.

I usually work-up rifle reloads trying the slowest powders that will just fill the case at the max charge.
What I find usually is that as the load begins to approach max charge,
the velocity spreads are reduced and accuracy (precision) improves.
RaySendero is offline  
Old February 23, 2016, 10:41 PM   #16
Wreck-n-Crew
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 8, 2013
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,820
Quote:
Interesting that I have recently been doing the same thing for a 9mm carbine and the most accurate load I have come up with so far is a 115 grain Winchester JHP and worked up to a load that is beyond "book" max, right at 1400 fps.
Pretty good @100yds. I managed similar @50 with my open sights today but never had a chance to move over to a 100. Doubt mine will be close to that. Maybe if I could see the target better? lol. Eyes are getting bad. May have to scope the thing.

For pistol I find that most accurate loads using several different powders over time tend to be in the mid to upper load.

WSF in 9mm needed to be loaded higher to clean up because is soots up so bad at the low end. But get to the max and my shots were spreading a lot more.

Ive also found Autocomp works well on the upper end in 9mm.

WST works well on the middle to light loads for 45 using a 200gr SWC.

Unique is a little hard for me to find a difference in accuracy between medium and heavy loads and light loads seem to not be quite as accurate in 9mm.

10mm loads using Red Dot on the upper end seem to be pretty nice groups. Same thing with 9mm.
__________________
If you ever have to use a firearm, you don't get to pick the scenario!
Wreck-n-Crew is offline  
Old February 23, 2016, 11:06 PM   #17
jmorris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 22, 2006
Posts: 3,076
Yeah, that was with a 12x Burris optic not irons. And therefore locked in a rest to eliminate me as a variable.
jmorris is offline  
Old February 23, 2016, 11:36 PM   #18
Sure Shot Mc Gee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2012
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,876
Quote:
I'm starting to think that loads closer to the maximum charge are generally less accurate than loads with a charge in the middle or toward the bottom. Is this generally true in your experience?
__ No.__

Most cartridges I've reloaded have a High & Low sweet spot. Cheap skate reloaders look for the Low. High Roller reloaders look for the High. Then there are guys like me that look for that Extreme Speedy Edge of a High Sweet Spot. Were generally thought to be: Lunatics.
Sure Shot Mc Gee is offline  
Old February 26, 2016, 02:59 PM   #19
Roadkill2228
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 8, 2014
Location: Nipawin, Saskatchewan
Posts: 311
super fast loads can be made to shoot accurately for sure (some people report the aforementioned sweet spots or "accuracy nodes") but from what I've read and experienced it's a lot less hassle and tweaking to make a moderate load shoot well WITHIN CERTAIN PARAMETERS...light loads can actually often exhibit worse accuracy and greater extreme spreads than near max loads, ESPECIALLY in large cases or cartridges with high case to bore ratios. Light loads do not shoot well at all in my .300 win mag, for example...it likes to be pushed hard. However I think the single biggest factor when it comes to loading for consistent accuracy, when it comes to powder charges, is that the case be right full of powder. Not compressed, ideally, but not sloshing around in there either. For me that's more important than if it's full pressure or not. As an example of this...two not-full-velocity loads that have given great accuracy in my rifles have been a full (slightly compressed) case of IMR 7828 under a plain jane 130 grain SP from hornady in my .270...it's not quite as fast as a 4831, 4350, or RL22 load but it's a full case of powder at moderate pressure, very consistent and accurate. The other is a compressed (80+ grains) load of H50BMG in my .300 win mag under a 208 BTHP or a 220 grain RN. No where near as fast as they could be pushed with a faster powder, but actually very consistent shot to shot velocity and some of the tightest groups I've ever shot. Look for powders that give good load density.
Roadkill2228 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.06202 seconds with 10 queries