How could this be?

Shotgun Slim · October 15, 2014, 10:57 AM

So one of my shooting buddies shows me a round of commercially remanufactured 9mm that "won't work" in her gun. Her XDM will not go into battery with it. I measure it and the length of the brass is.770!! Good thing it wouldn't chamber. This is supposed to be once fired and the case does look to be that but I wonder how a case this long ever got fired in the first place and how did it make it through the reman process? I can't imagine how the crimp die didn't bulge it and how the QC didn't catch it anyhow. Have any of you ever seen one like this? It was headstamped WIN 9mm LUGER just like millions of others so it's not a freak 38 super case. Glad she didn't beat on the slide and force it to chamber.

Jimro · October 16, 2014, 04:23 AM

I've not experienced it myself, but you aren't the first person to report on out of spec ammo not chambering.

Sometimes QA/QC just fails.

Jimro

buck460XVR · October 16, 2014, 01:24 PM

Quote:

This is supposed to be once fired and the case does look to be that but I wonder how a case this long ever got fired in the first place?

Maybe in a revolver using moon-clips?

Shotgun Slim · October 16, 2014, 04:52 PM

Hadn't thought of that. Thanks. As an aside I contacted the outfit that reloads the ammo and they could not have cared less-I offered to return it so they could see it and they blew me off. Maybe I'm expecting too much but thought they would be interested. Oh well. I will continue to happily load my own stuff.

Shootest · October 17, 2014, 04:07 AM

This is the kind of thing that gives reloaded ammunition a bad name. If care is not taken a lot of problems can and will arise. I will keep loading my own knowing that my ammo is better than factory, because of the care I take.

madmo44mag · October 17, 2014, 09:01 AM

I use to help a commercial reloader.
Range brass as one stated may have been fired from a gun not intended for that round (Moon Clips – pistol round in a rifle chamber)
On pistol brass you don’t use small base sizing dies but standard full length dies.
So it can happen but should only be an odd round in 100’s of rounds if not thousands of rounds.
One thing to consider is dies do wear out and in a commercial reloading operation dies wear pretty fast.
Their dies may have reached that point where they size fine for most guns but those with tight chambers just will not go all the way into battery.
Any commercial reloader not concerned about a full box of ammo not chambering I would never buy their ammo again.

F. Guffey · October 17, 2014, 09:25 AM

Quote:

the brass is.770!! Good thing it wouldn't chamber. This is supposed to be once fired and the case does look to be that but I wonder how a case this long ever got fired in the first place and how did it make it through the reman process

I read it everyday on reloading forums, goes something like 'I simply never find it necessary to trim my straight wall cases because they just do not increase in length'.

Then someone assumes the brass is once fired, measuring the length of a case does not require time, there is speed measuring in thousandths.

It always happens like suddenly, without warning and all at once and no one saw it coming.

F. Guffey

bedbugbilly · October 17, 2014, 11:03 AM

Guffey . . . I'm one of those guys that never trims his pistol brass as well and all I use is "range brass" . . . BUT . . . each casing is run through a FL sizing die and as it comes off the press, it goes in to a cartridge gauge before it goes in to a box. And, I do randomly check case length. So far, my trimming dies remain NIB in my die storage chest . . . just in case.

Jim Watson · October 17, 2014, 11:40 AM

Beats me.
I found an over length .45 ACP this summer, a finished round wouldn't gauge.
I didn't trim it, I shot it in a gun loose enough to chamber it and discarded it.

A Wilson cartridge gauge will eliminate such oddballs.

bfoosh006 · October 18, 2014, 08:56 AM

Are you sure it is not a 9mm x 21 ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9%C3%9721mm

Jim Watson · October 18, 2014, 09:31 AM

.77 is about 19.5 mm.
Could be a .356 TSW
What is the headstamp?

**Unclenick** · October 18, 2014, 11:49 AM

That was my thought, too. Check the headstamp. A 9 mm Browning Long or some other variant on 9 mm could actually have shortened in a tapered or loose chamber and given that result. I also wondered if it might have originally been the hotter sub-gun ball load fired and stretched in a full-auto weapon.

Also, tolerances on outsourced ammo is sometimes just odd. I've run into .45 Auto cases with necks so thick than no bullet over 0.450" could be seated and still have it chamber in a match barrel. Anyway, if you tell us what the headstamp says, it may at least serve as a heads up for others loading range brass or once-fired brass.

indie_rocker · October 18, 2014, 11:55 AM

From the OP's post. He clearly has already said what the headstamp was.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shotgun Slim

It was headstamped WIN 9mm LUGER...

F. Guffey · October 20, 2014, 09:00 AM

quote from a quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shotgun Slim View Post
It was head stamped WIN 9mm LUGER...

I came home with 22,000 cases. A third of the cases were 9MM luger Win., because of the weight in the head of the cases turning them over is a matter of shaking them until the heavy case heads are down then place a flat board over the cases and flip. After flipping all the case heads are up. If by chance a tall case holds the board off the short cases will fall out.

I got help with sorting, by the time we finished we had found three cases that were Berdan primed. After placing the cases in boxes we could not find the 3 Berdan primed cases. The rest of the cases were 30/30, 223, 38 Special+p and 10mm.

No burs, no hanging chads.

F. Guffey

**Unclenick** · October 20, 2014, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by indie_rocker

From the OP's post. He clearly has already said what the headstamp was.

Yup! I read it twice and still didn't see it. Odd.

In that case it's likely just a straightforward manufacturing defect. I once bought a box of 1000 Winchester .223 cases and found two with no flash holes. It happens. It's one reason commercial ammo can have some kinds of problems a handloads don't. Machines spitting them out so fast, some errors get by that simple visual inspection catches.

Shotgun Slim · October 20, 2014, 06:00 PM

Interesting that the case was almost 20 thousands too long but the crimp die didn't bulge it. My shooter's XDM was about an eighth of an inch from going into battery. Oh well. I like my ammo better. More quality control.I shoot a lot,but have resisted the urge to go with a progressive press because my old RCBS Jr press setup gives me real top quality results. Thanks for the input folks.

Snyper · October 20, 2014, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Interesting that the case was almost 20 thousands too long but the crimp die didn't bulge it.

A taper crimp probably wouldn't bulge it

October 15, 2014, 10:57 AM	#1
Shotgun Slim Senior Member Join Date: March 9, 2014 Location: Va Posts: 291	How could this be? So one of my shooting buddies shows me a round of commercially remanufactured 9mm that "won't work" in her gun. Her XDM will not go into battery with it. I measure it and the length of the brass is.770!! Good thing it wouldn't chamber. This is supposed to be once fired and the case does look to be that but I wonder how a case this long ever got fired in the first place and how did it make it through the reman process? I can't imagine how the crimp die didn't bulge it and how the QC didn't catch it anyhow. Have any of you ever seen one like this? It was headstamped WIN 9mm LUGER just like millions of others so it's not a freak 38 super case. Glad she didn't beat on the slide and force it to chamber.

October 16, 2014, 04:23 AM	#2
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	I've not experienced it myself, but you aren't the first person to report on out of spec ammo not chambering. Sometimes QA/QC just fails. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

October 17, 2014, 04:07 AM	#5
Shootest Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2011 Location: Just outside Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 722	This is the kind of thing that gives reloaded ammunition a bad name. If care is not taken a lot of problems can and will arise. I will keep loading my own knowing that my ammo is better than factory, because of the care I take. __________________ The private ownership of firearms is an American Heritage. Anyone who disputes that is Anti-American and unpatriotic. NRA Life Member

October 17, 2014, 09:01 AM	#6
madmo44mag Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2008 Location: Ft.Worth, Texas Posts: 1,522	I use to help a commercial reloader. Range brass as one stated may have been fired from a gun not intended for that round (Moon Clips – pistol round in a rifle chamber) On pistol brass you don’t use small base sizing dies but standard full length dies. So it can happen but should only be an odd round in 100’s of rounds if not thousands of rounds. One thing to consider is dies do wear out and in a commercial reloading operation dies wear pretty fast. Their dies may have reached that point where they size fine for most guns but those with tight chambers just will not go all the way into battery. Any commercial reloader not concerned about a full box of ammo not chambering I would never buy their ammo again. __________________ Texas - Not just a state but an attitude! For monthly shooting events in DFW visit http://www.meetup.com/TexasGunOwner-DFW

October 17, 2014, 11:03 AM	#8
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,287	Guffey . . . I'm one of those guys that never trims his pistol brass as well and all I use is "range brass" . . . BUT . . . each casing is run through a FL sizing die and as it comes off the press, it goes in to a cartridge gauge before it goes in to a box. And, I do randomly check case length. So far, my trimming dies remain NIB in my die storage chest . . . just in case. __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

October 16, 2014, 04:52 PM	#4
Shotgun Slim Senior Member Join Date: March 9, 2014 Location: Va Posts: 291	Hadn't thought of that. Thanks. As an aside I contacted the outfit that reloads the ammo and they could not have cared less-I offered to return it so they could see it and they blew me off. Maybe I'm expecting too much but thought they would be interested. Oh well. I will continue to happily load my own stuff.

October 17, 2014, 11:40 AM	#9
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	Beats me. I found an over length .45 ACP this summer, a finished round wouldn't gauge. I didn't trim it, I shot it in a gun loose enough to chamber it and discarded it. A Wilson cartridge gauge will eliminate such oddballs.

October 18, 2014, 08:56 AM	#10
bfoosh006 Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Posts: 1,089	Are you sure it is not a 9mm x 21 ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9%C3%9721mm

October 18, 2014, 09:31 AM	#11
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	.77 is about 19.5 mm. Could be a .356 TSW What is the headstamp?

October 18, 2014, 11:49 AM	#12
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	That was my thought, too. Check the headstamp. A 9 mm Browning Long or some other variant on 9 mm could actually have shortened in a tapered or loose chamber and given that result. I also wondered if it might have originally been the hotter sub-gun ball load fired and stretched in a full-auto weapon. Also, tolerances on outsourced ammo is sometimes just odd. I've run into .45 Auto cases with necks so thick than no bullet over 0.450" could be seated and still have it chamber in a match barrel. Anyway, if you tell us what the headstamp says, it may at least serve as a heads up for others loading range brass or once-fired brass. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

October 20, 2014, 06:00 PM	#16
Shotgun Slim Senior Member Join Date: March 9, 2014 Location: Va Posts: 291	Interesting that the case was almost 20 thousands too long but the crimp die didn't bulge it. My shooter's XDM was about an eighth of an inch from going into battery. Oh well. I like my ammo better. More quality control.I shoot a lot,but have resisted the urge to go with a progressive press because my old RCBS Jr press setup gives me real top quality results. Thanks for the input folks.