45 ACP reloading question

Deer Slayer 270 · January 6, 2007, 11:02 PM

I have just started reloading 45 ACP using LEE 3 die carbide set and I had a question that I hope some you who are experienced can answer. Last night as I was putting the shells thru the Expander die, I noticed that the shells were going into the die easy but very difficult pulling them out (lowering the press handle). these are carbide dies and are not supposed to require lubrication and I did not put any on the shells at first, but after getting tired of pushing really hard on the handle to lower it to remove the shell out of the die, I tried a little lubricant in the inside of the throat and made it go thru the die easier. My question is: Is this supposed to be this hard running the shells thru the expander die or am I doing something wrong? why is it so hard to flare out the shells with the expander die? Should I start lubricating all the shells in the ID before this operation? Please advice. I would really appreciate some guidance. Thanks.

rwilson452 · January 6, 2007, 11:30 PM

assuming you really mean the expander die not the resizing/decapping die. I would say your expanding way too much. You want just enough bell to set the bullet on top of the case without it falling off, not enought to set the bullet IN the case. That is what the seating die is for. on the case not in the case.

viper1216 · January 6, 2007, 11:36 PM

+1 to wilson. I have thee Lee dies also. My expanding die is used in conjunction with the powder drop. There is almost no effort in the expanding part at all. Most resistance is from the powder drop spring. There is a slight "tug" on the down stroke but nothing that requires any real force behind it to raise the handle.

Viper

Deer Slayer 270 · January 6, 2007, 11:49 PM

Yes it is the Expander die I am talking about and I am only expanding the mouth enough so the bullet will stay in place. the bullet is only seated just below the edge. I don't think I am expanding it too much

I was using brand new Winchester brass. I don't know if that would make any difference.

rwilson452 · January 7, 2007, 12:13 AM

I stand by my first statement. Too much bell. You don't need the bullet to set exactly upright. the seating die will get it straight. Back off the die until it just touches the case. then turn it in a 1/4 turn. try again. proceed in 1/4 turn increments until the bullet stays on the case reasonably upright. You might want to check the die to ensure there is nothing in the die that doesn't belong there.

Deer Slayer 270 · January 7, 2007, 12:20 AM

Thanks for the advice. I will give it a try.

amamnn · January 7, 2007, 01:05 AM

The Lee expander die is meant to be used in the case charging process. You can load powder through the die using a funnel or the Lee auto disk. (if you get one, get the pro auto disk) Lee's answer to powder bridging is to have the case "stick" a bit on the ram downstroke, thus agitating the powder in the measure and keeping the flow even. When I bought my Lee dies, lo these many years ago, this was explained on the info sheet that comes with the die set.

eldon519 · January 7, 2007, 01:59 AM

Just for future reference, in a carbide pistol die set, the only die that has carbide in it is the resizing die. If you're belling the case mouth too much, this would happen regardless of whether it was steel or carbide.

XD-Guy · January 7, 2007, 09:11 AM

Deer slayer 270, You are not doing anything wrong I use lee dies also and I had the same problem at first don't worry, it will break in. If you want to speed up the process you can polish it with scotch bright it don't take long and it works good

dogfood · January 7, 2007, 09:45 AM

Two points already mentioned by XD-Guy and others ... and I think one or the other, or both, will definitely clear up your problem.

First, if you are expanding more than you need, then your contact area of the expander with the case inside wall will be too great. This causes a bunch of friction when you try to pull them apart.

Second, the expander on all of my Lee pistol dies started out very rough. If you pull this die apart, you'll notice that the expander is tapered ... a sort of funnel shape. You will probably notice a bunch of feed lines on it from lathe turning. This just locks into the case - again, making it difficult to pull apart. I chuck all of my expanders in a drill press, and after a few minutes with some emery cloth to smooth them out, the sticking problem goes away. But you can also do this in an electric drill (provided it has a large capacity chuck), or by hand, but it will take longer.

dogfood

Deer Slayer 270 · January 7, 2007, 10:35 AM

Thank you guys, all this information has been very helpful. I didn't realize that only the sizing die is carbide in the whole Lee 3 die set. something they neglect to mention. that alone explains alot of my problem, specially if I am belling it a little too much.

I will see if I can take the expander die apart and polish the parts involved in the expanding process.

Also should I start using lubricants, now that I know that expander die is not made of carbide?

rwilson452 · January 7, 2007, 11:14 AM

The only die that would need lube is the steel sizeing die. the rest do not need lube. I have been using the Lee .45ACP dies for years and 1000's of rounds without lube. I use 4 dies. the FCD being the 4th die.

Deer Slayer 270 · January 7, 2007, 12:18 PM

I tried belling the cases as little as possible without the bullets falling off and still very hard pulling the press handle down, so that was not my main problem, but reducing the bell did make it slightly easier.

But dogfood was right on the money - I took apart my expander die and sure enough the tapered surface of the expanding finger that actually does the expantion had a very rough and coarse surface with machining lines. that has been creating too much friction and actually been shaving brass from inside of the throat. Lee should have polished this surface after maching in their factory. I am kind of disappointed at them that they did not do such a simple operation before putting it out on the market.

But thanks, at least now I know what is going on.

slimshot · January 7, 2007, 08:57 PM

Lost in all this is what amamnn said: The Lee expander die is made to be used in the powder charging process, and the "bump" you feel is meant to agitate all the powder down into the case.

Shoney · January 8, 2007, 02:16 PM

I think the magic word that no one has addressed here is that Deer Slayer 270 said

Quote:

I was using brand new Winchester brass.

If the brass has not been resized, there is the problem. New brass is not uniform and gets banged around during the post forming process. All my new brass or once-fired new to me brass, gets a full length resize and trim. In pistol brass, after the initial trim, I have never had to trim again, but at least all my brass is of uniform length.

cheygriz · January 8, 2007, 06:59 PM

Send the die back to Lee and have them finish it. I've had three sets of Lee dies over the years, and all three had to be sebt back. I will admit there customer service was acceptable, and they did a good job on fixing the dies. but they should never have lweft the factory that way.

Now, I stick pretty much to Redding dies. I use Lee FCD (factory crimp dies) but other than that, I use nothing made by LEE.

I

Deer Slayer 270 · January 8, 2007, 09:49 PM

In reply to couple of the comments:

Shoney - I did resize all my brass (new Winchester) before I put them thru the expander die, so that is not the problem.

Slimshot - It is alot more than a "bump" that I am experincing, much more than what would have been the original intent to insure all the powder gets in the case. My whole reloading bench shakes for every shell that I am expanding.

Bottom line is as I discovered from disassembling my expander die and as others have pointed out, the problem is from rough machining marks on the expander finger which was not polished at the factory like it should have been.

Dave R · January 8, 2007, 09:51 PM

I use Lee dies on .45acp. As has already been explained, that resistance on the upstroke is normal. Although a whole lot of resistance doesn't sound right, some resistance is normal.

dogfood · January 9, 2007, 05:31 PM

Concerning the "stick" or "bump", amamnn, slimshot and Dave R are correct that it is expected. However, you will get a bump when the expander pulls free of the case, even if the expander is polished. That's because brass has some elasticity ... which is really fortunate for us reloaders, otherwise we would never have any neck tension in our reloads. So the brass will lock onto the expander taper regardless, to some degree, but it will be miserable if the expander is really rough.

How miserable? Well, I was actually bending the rims on .38 Special cases due to an extremely rough expander in a new Lee die set about 15 years ago. I called Lee and they told me to polish the expander - which is exactly what I did - and life improved considerably. I have long since polished the expanders in all of my Lee die sets.

And, yes, they all still bump.

dogfood

January 6, 2007, 11:02 PM	#1
Deer Slayer 270 Member Join Date: January 6, 2007 Posts: 49	45 ACP reloading question I have just started reloading 45 ACP using LEE 3 die carbide set and I had a question that I hope some you who are experienced can answer. Last night as I was putting the shells thru the Expander die, I noticed that the shells were going into the die easy but very difficult pulling them out (lowering the press handle). these are carbide dies and are not supposed to require lubrication and I did not put any on the shells at first, but after getting tired of pushing really hard on the handle to lower it to remove the shell out of the die, I tried a little lubricant in the inside of the throat and made it go thru the die easier. My question is: Is this supposed to be this hard running the shells thru the expander die or am I doing something wrong? why is it so hard to flare out the shells with the expander die? Should I start lubricating all the shells in the ID before this operation? Please advice. I would really appreciate some guidance. Thanks.

January 6, 2007, 11:30 PM	#2
rwilson452 Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2004 Location: Tioga co. PA Posts: 2,647	expander die assuming you really mean the expander die not the resizing/decapping die. I would say your expanding way too much. You want just enough bell to set the bullet on top of the case without it falling off, not enought to set the bullet IN the case. That is what the seating die is for. on the case not in the case.

January 7, 2007, 12:13 AM	#5
rwilson452 Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2004 Location: Tioga co. PA Posts: 2,647	expander die I stand by my first statement. Too much bell. You don't need the bullet to set exactly upright. the seating die will get it straight. Back off the die until it just touches the case. then turn it in a 1/4 turn. try again. proceed in 1/4 turn increments until the bullet stays on the case reasonably upright. You might want to check the die to ensure there is nothing in the die that doesn't belong there.

January 7, 2007, 01:05 AM	#7
amamnn Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2006 Location: WA, the left armpit of the USA Posts: 1,323	The Lee expander die is meant to be used in the case charging process. You can load powder through the die using a funnel or the Lee auto disk. (if you get one, get the pro auto disk) Lee's answer to powder bridging is to have the case "stick" a bit on the ram downstroke, thus agitating the powder in the measure and keeping the flow even. When I bought my Lee dies, lo these many years ago, this was explained on the info sheet that comes with the die set. __________________ "If the enemy is in range, so are you." - Infantry Journal

January 7, 2007, 09:45 AM	#10
dogfood Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2004 Location: Southwestern OH Posts: 239	Two points already mentioned by XD-Guy and others ... and I think one or the other, or both, will definitely clear up your problem. First, if you are expanding more than you need, then your contact area of the expander with the case inside wall will be too great. This causes a bunch of friction when you try to pull them apart. Second, the expander on all of my Lee pistol dies started out very rough. If you pull this die apart, you'll notice that the expander is tapered ... a sort of funnel shape. You will probably notice a bunch of feed lines on it from lathe turning. This just locks into the case - again, making it difficult to pull apart. I chuck all of my expanders in a drill press, and after a few minutes with some emery cloth to smooth them out, the sticking problem goes away. But you can also do this in an electric drill (provided it has a large capacity chuck), or by hand, but it will take longer. dogfood Last edited by dogfood; January 7, 2007 at 02:47 PM.

January 6, 2007, 11:36 PM	#3
viper1216 Member Join Date: January 25, 2006 Location: Rhode ISland Posts: 73	+1 to wilson. I have thee Lee dies also. My expanding die is used in conjunction with the powder drop. There is almost no effort in the expanding part at all. Most resistance is from the powder drop spring. There is a slight "tug" on the down stroke but nothing that requires any real force behind it to raise the handle. Viper

January 6, 2007, 11:49 PM	#4
Deer Slayer 270 Member Join Date: January 6, 2007 Posts: 49	Yes it is the Expander die I am talking about and I am only expanding the mouth enough so the bullet will stay in place. the bullet is only seated just below the edge. I don't think I am expanding it too much I was using brand new Winchester brass. I don't know if that would make any difference.

January 7, 2007, 12:20 AM	#6
Deer Slayer 270 Member Join Date: January 6, 2007 Posts: 49	Thanks for the advice. I will give it a try.

January 7, 2007, 01:59 AM	#8
eldon519 Member Join Date: November 29, 2006 Location: Kennesaw, Ga Posts: 28	Just for future reference, in a carbide pistol die set, the only die that has carbide in it is the resizing die. If you're belling the case mouth too much, this would happen regardless of whether it was steel or carbide.

January 7, 2007, 09:11 AM	#9
XD-Guy Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2006 Posts: 102	Deer slayer 270, You are not doing anything wrong I use lee dies also and I had the same problem at first don't worry, it will break in. If you want to speed up the process you can polish it with scotch bright it don't take long and it works good

January 7, 2007, 10:35 AM	#11
Deer Slayer 270 Member Join Date: January 6, 2007 Posts: 49	Thank you guys, all this information has been very helpful. I didn't realize that only the sizing die is carbide in the whole Lee 3 die set. something they neglect to mention. that alone explains alot of my problem, specially if I am belling it a little too much. I will see if I can take the expander die apart and polish the parts involved in the expanding process. Also should I start using lubricants, now that I know that expander die is not made of carbide?

January 7, 2007, 11:14 AM	#12
rwilson452 Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2004 Location: Tioga co. PA Posts: 2,647	Expander die The only die that would need lube is the steel sizeing die. the rest do not need lube. I have been using the Lee .45ACP dies for years and 1000's of rounds without lube. I use 4 dies. the FCD being the 4th die.

January 7, 2007, 12:18 PM	#13
Deer Slayer 270 Member Join Date: January 6, 2007 Posts: 49	I tried belling the cases as little as possible without the bullets falling off and still very hard pulling the press handle down, so that was not my main problem, but reducing the bell did make it slightly easier. But dogfood was right on the money - I took apart my expander die and sure enough the tapered surface of the expanding finger that actually does the expantion had a very rough and coarse surface with machining lines. that has been creating too much friction and actually been shaving brass from inside of the throat. Lee should have polished this surface after maching in their factory. I am kind of disappointed at them that they did not do such a simple operation before putting it out on the market. But thanks, at least now I know what is going on.

January 7, 2007, 08:57 PM	#14
slimshot Member Join Date: November 18, 2004 Location: Springfield, IL Posts: 39	Lost in all this is what amamnn said: The Lee expander die is made to be used in the powder charging process, and the "bump" you feel is meant to agitate all the powder down into the case.

January 8, 2007, 06:59 PM	#16
cheygriz Senior Member Join Date: May 11, 2002 Location: high up in the rockies Posts: 2,289	Send the die back to Lee and have them finish it. I've had three sets of Lee dies over the years, and all three had to be sebt back. I will admit there customer service was acceptable, and they did a good job on fixing the dies. but they should never have lweft the factory that way. Now, I stick pretty much to Redding dies. I use Lee FCD (factory crimp dies) but other than that, I use nothing made by LEE. I __________________ If you think a mighty military force is expensive, wait 'til you see what a weak one costs.

January 8, 2007, 09:49 PM	#17
Deer Slayer 270 Member Join Date: January 6, 2007 Posts: 49	In reply to couple of the comments: Shoney - I did resize all my brass (new Winchester) before I put them thru the expander die, so that is not the problem. Slimshot - It is alot more than a "bump" that I am experincing, much more than what would have been the original intent to insure all the powder gets in the case. My whole reloading bench shakes for every shell that I am expanding. Bottom line is as I discovered from disassembling my expander die and as others have pointed out, the problem is from rough machining marks on the expander finger which was not polished at the factory like it should have been.

January 8, 2007, 09:51 PM	#18
Dave R Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2000 Location: Idaho Posts: 6,073	I use Lee dies on .45acp. As has already been explained, that resistance on the upstroke is normal. Although a whole lot of resistance doesn't sound right, some resistance is normal. __________________ I am Pro-Rights (on gun issues).

January 9, 2007, 05:31 PM	#19
dogfood Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2004 Location: Southwestern OH Posts: 239	Concerning the "stick" or "bump", amamnn, slimshot and Dave R are correct that it is expected. However, you will get a bump when the expander pulls free of the case, even if the expander is polished. That's because brass has some elasticity ... which is really fortunate for us reloaders, otherwise we would never have any neck tension in our reloads. So the brass will lock onto the expander taper regardless, to some degree, but it will be miserable if the expander is really rough. How miserable? Well, I was actually bending the rims on .38 Special cases due to an extremely rough expander in a new Lee die set about 15 years ago. I called Lee and they told me to polish the expander - which is exactly what I did - and life improved considerably. I have long since polished the expanders in all of my Lee die sets. And, yes, they all still bump. dogfood