Scope set-up on AR for hd & target shooting

MrBot · June 18, 2018, 01:38 PM

Looking at the possibility of picking up something like the Ruger AR556 to have available should things go bump in the night. I'm thinking I'd want to attach a light with a pressure switch. Do I wanna go with iron sights with see-through rings for close shots, or would I be better off with maybe a 1-4x scope, fold down the rear sight & get rings high enough to clear the front sight? I've read the Ruger has a peep--which I'd think would be useless for quick acquisition--so maybe that could be replaced. ..not sure if the S&W Sport 2 has a rear sight that would serve me better or not, but that li'l rifle may be a good choice too.

MTT TL · June 18, 2018, 01:48 PM

I have an EOtech with 3X flip away magnifier behind. Works perfect for target shooting and self defense. There are flip up BUIS, however offset iron sights work just as well and are going to be faster.

KY_blkout · June 18, 2018, 04:22 PM

For quick acquisition red dot is the way to go, you can find quality red dots from 200-400 all day long that will serve your purpose well.

marine6680 · June 18, 2018, 07:30 PM

If you want a home defense rifle...

Red dot... Always red dot.

There is no true do it all setup, and often trying to do more than one thing with a rifle ends up compromising everything.

O feel an ACOG and offset red dot works pretty well as a general use rifle for many situations... But if HD is a goal, I focus on that only when setting up the rifle.

My current HD rifle has a Red dot sight, and always will.

2damnold4this · June 18, 2018, 07:43 PM

What about an Aimpoint Pro?

LineStretcher · June 18, 2018, 07:44 PM

I have a little battle rattle AR15 with a red dot and 3x fold away multiplier. Works great from zero to 100 yards. It's not a precision rifle but its light and quick.

Rangerrich99 · June 18, 2018, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBot

Looking at the possibility of picking up something like the Ruger AR556 to have available should things go bump in the night. I'm thinking I'd want to attach a light with a pressure switch. Do I wanna go with iron sights with see-through rings for close shots, or would I be better off with maybe a 1-4x scope, fold down the rear sight & get rings high enough to clear the front sight? I've read the Ruger has a peep--which I'd think would be useless for quick acquisition--so maybe that could be replaced. ..not sure if the S&W Sport 2 has a rear sight that would serve me better or not, but that li'l rifle may be a good choice too.

HD and target shooting are kind of separate animals, but you haven't been specific about your target shooting needs/requirements so maybe you can do both from the same scope/sight.

For HD I'm currently using an EOTech 512 red dot (older tech). I would recommend using some type of red dot for HD use. Red dots are just the fastest way to rapidly acquire a target at HD distances. If I were buying one now I would likely get a Vortex SPARC (1x) or a Vortex Strike Eagle (1x6 mag).

Your target shooting needs depend on several factors, including how far are you planning to shoot, what size groups will be acceptable to you, and so on. A Vortex Strike Eagle will allow a person to shoot fairly good groups out to at least 100-150 yards, but you're probably not going to be able to shoot one-hole ragged groups with it, as the dot (I believe) is 2 MOA. So if you're looking to shoot bottle caps at 100 yards you probably need to look at a different scope. If you're trying to hit a 8-inch paper plate at 200, it'll probably be okay for that.

Mobuck · June 19, 2018, 06:58 AM

For HD, nothing beats a laser.

MrBot · June 19, 2018, 04:12 PM

I admit: my bad; my original post is misleading. The purpose of this rifle will be hd, not target shooting. I'll configure the AR for defense against home intruders & I'll do so for low light/total darkness conditions. Target shooting will be secondary--I'll do so for fun & more importantly to become adept @ handling my set-up. ..not sure if I'll limit myself to selecting an AR @ this x & studying lights, switches & optics later, or just wait & get the whole kit & kaboodle later after I've studied my options. I do know, however, I'm kinda itching to send lead downrange so I'm leaning toward option 1. Plus--always looking for excuses to pick up that next new, cool gizmo--I could always use the excuse a basic AR in the bedroom NOW would trump holding off & not having it should the unthinkable occur. You can't use what you don't have.

Steve in PA · June 20, 2018, 01:06 AM

For home defense, I would stick with iron sights or a red dot. Scopes would be more for range or extended distance use. I would never use a scope on my home defense AR.

I have two AR's, one is set up with an Aimpoint PRO and the other has iron sights. Both have Surefire lights mounted in Elzetta mounts.

If or when you mount a scope on your AR, there is no need to get high scope mounts to clear the front sight as; 1) the scope would be way to high and, 2) you will never notice the front sight through the scope.

Scoits · June 20, 2018, 07:49 AM

Burris 1” scope mount with Picatinny capability on top of rings. Use a low power scope sighted in for a hundred yds and a Crimson Trace rail mount sighted in for 15 yds for HD. No need to mount the rifle to the shoulder with a laser. Can mount a small flashlight on the other ring if wanted.

riffraff · June 20, 2018, 08:27 AM

I'm not sure I ever understand the idea of a rifle for "home" defense. You can get a very normal looking 9mm pistol that holds 20 rounds, which to me is much better for the home.

If you really want the handiest out of the box close range sort of rifle, ie shorter range but easy and light - a pencil barrel and lightweight guard sort of setup is going to be the way to go I think. I've got an Aero 16 inch pencil barrel w/ a 12 inch Atlas s-one guard I picked up as a toy but is basically something along those lines - light, easy to handle, perfectly fine for under 100 yards.

You can get something like that, or something similar, without knowing anything about AR's. You buy a complete upper, and a complete lower, and snap them together. There are sales on the stuff all the time, without a killer deal would not be much more than $750 to get a rifle that way, which is going to be a better quality setup as well as more along the lines of what you want it for compared to a low end Ruger - nice not to have an iron sight in the way if you put a red dot on it too, or to be able to put a set of light flip ups on it to be used out of range of the laser. There are sales every other week on most of this stuff if you sign up for their mailer, one just ended at 15% off...

Lightweight upper (you would need to buy a bolt carrier assembly and charging handle, which is about another $150):

https://aeroprecisionusa.com/m4e1-th...handguard.html

Lower - they have an enhanced and standard AR15 versions, I like the enhanced because it takes the same parts but has some nice improvements/features, but those are out of stock at the moment while they do have the regular AR15 versions in stock at the moment.

https://aeroprecisionusa.com/m4e1-co...ock-black.html

https://aeroprecisionusa.com/ar15-co...-standard.html

Joe-ker · June 20, 2018, 08:32 AM

I put a cheap reflex on my AR556. It was the first "battery operated" sight for me so I wasn't going to break the bank in case I didn't care for it. I didn't care for the peep sight on the ruger. Let's just say I am sold on them and plan on replacing it with a higher end one. I use mine for HD and casual shooting. I love the reflex---- for HD it's excellent. Low light/almost complete darkness it's excellent. I like that I can keep both eyes open for total awareness. It is a bit dim in bright sunshine though. I know it's a cheapy so for HD it's not ideal. Plus turning on in HD situation may not be practical so will probably replace with a Primary Arms red dot.

MrBot · June 20, 2018, 09:00 PM

Some darned good info! This is getting interesting. I'll study all of these possible solutions & see where it leads me. Have been more into handguns the last few years & only recently warmed to the AR so @ this point all of these ideas are new to me. Since I've just now begun studying the AR carbine I'm gonna hold off on making any predictions as to where this'll all end. But it sure does seem as though about everyone's in favor of red dot so that may be the direction I take. I also like the idea of building my own. Bigger project but if it's not an overwhelming one it'd be pretty cool doing so. Right now educating myself on all this is gonna be my top priority. Should be fun if doable though.

USCS · June 20, 2018, 09:44 PM

I like the Vortex Spitfire with its etched in donut style reticle. If I want to light it up I can. If the battery is dead, I can still use it. That said I have a Leupold European 30 on my .300 blk. HD rifle. I have a Surefire light on that one which provides enough light to see recticle at a cross the room distances. I’m a fan of optics that will work without batteries if I need to.

riffraff · June 20, 2018, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBot

Some darned good info! This is getting interesting. I'll study all of these possible solutions & see where it leads me. Have been more into handguns the last few years & only recently warmed to the AR so @ this point all of these ideas are new to me. Since I've just now begun studying the AR carbine I'm gonna hold off on making any predictions as to where this'll all end. But it sure does seem as though about everyone's in favor of red dot so that may be the direction I take. I also like the idea of building my own. Bigger project but if it's not an overwhelming one it'd be pretty cool doing so. Right now educating myself on all this is gonna be my top priority. Should be fun if doable though.

There's really no need to build your own, sliding the charging handle and bolt carrier group in there, snapping an upper and lower together is what you gotta do every time you clean them - before you even shoot your new rifle that's gotta come apart and go back together anyway.

It's like this - spend say $600 on a cheap off the shelf flat top w/ an iron sight, you get at best a chrome lined barrel (and with the ruger no lining at all), standard phosphate coating, plastic handguard with no place to even mount a forward grip, and an iron sight that takes some work to remove/modify - which arguably can be used w/ a red dot but also arguably gets in the way.

Spend that $750 and you get an aluminum free float guard with places to mount accessories optics/sights any way you see fit, an up-level slicker nitride coating inside and out including the bolt carrier group, and just better quality all around.

I've got a couple rifles like you described originally but there's not a whole lot of good reasons to go that route - especially if you ever want to add an optic to it and that's what you are talking about already before you even bought one.

KY_blkout · June 21, 2018, 12:11 AM

Getting into ARs is like going down a rabbit hole, everytime you think this will be my last one you come up with another reason why you need a different setup. That's a big part of the fun for me, welcome to the dark side of rifles lol

Kirosha · June 21, 2018, 11:54 AM

I would definitely point you towards the AR 556 MPR as a cheap upgrade to the base model. That said, I use the Ozark Armament Rhino Red and Green Dot. Affordable and it has never had an issue.

MrBot · June 22, 2018, 09:41 PM

Ok, I'll study the optics suggested & try & get some suggestions on a better carbine than the 2 entry level models I mentioned. I also gotta find a light--preferably without a cord between the light & switch--& study its mount so I can figure out what's needed @ the fore end. I don't have a lotta free x due to work, so if I buy something like a kit it'd have to be darned simple to put together. If not, I'd better stick with 1 already assembled. ..would love to build my own but the boss man ain't giving me much time off.

riffraff · June 22, 2018, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBot

Ok, I'll study the optics suggested & try & get some suggestions on a better carbine than the 2 entry level models I mentioned. I also gotta find a light--preferably without a cord between the light & switch--& study its mount so I can figure out what's needed @ the fore end. I don't have a lotta free x due to work, so if I buy something like a kit it'd have to be darned simple to put together. If not, I'd better stick with 1 already assembled. ..would love to build my own but the boss man ain't giving me much time off.

Find someone you know who has an AR and have them show you how to separate upper, lower, bolt carrier group, and charging handle. Or watch a 10 second video on the same.

Buy the rifle how you see fit but literally if you buy a new AR assembled, before you even shoot it you should separate those parts to clean the storage oils/grease/whatever out of the barrel, any other parts that are coated in such, and to properly lubricate everything.

Similarly if you clean your rifles (and you really should

) you gotta take those things apart as well as disassemble the bolt carrier group - very easy but it's really not assembling a rifle it's just field stripping. 2 pins hold an AR upper to lower, they unsnap with your hands, BCG & CH slide out, then a paper clip disassembles the BCG. My guess is most care taking gun owners do this every time they use the rifle, or at least I do.

pblanc · June 23, 2018, 09:41 AM

I won't get into the issue of whether an AR type carbine is a good home self-defense option. It is not my first choice, but there are certainly many people who think it is an ideal choice for some.

Personally, I think both the Ruger AR 556 and the Smith and Wesson M&P Sport II are perfectly good carbines. As for barrel lining, it might be of great value if you anticipate using the rifle in inclement weather conditions for protracted periods, and it might result in longer barrel life (sometimes at a slight cost in accuracy) but that might be a non-issue for those who are unlikely to shoot many thousands of rounds through the rifle.

You asked about the rear sight differences between the Ruger AR 556 and the M&P Sport II. They both use plastic flip-up rear peep sights. The M&P uses a Magpul MBUS rear sight with two different available peep apertures. The Ruger uses a proprietary rear sight with only a single rear peep aperture that is roughly equivalent to the smaller peep aperture of the Magpul MBUS. The Magpul MBUS has a release lever to flip the sight up on both sides. The Ruger sight has a release button on only one side. So in those regards, the M&P sight is a little "better". But for close quarters use you would want to use the larger peep aperture. If you didn't need the smaller aperture you could easily enlarge the peep aperture on the Ruger sight with a drill bit. The small aperture is better for accuracy at longer distance. But to tell the truth, most individuals who are going to want to use "iron" sights for distance shooting with either rifle are probably going to want to use a different (better) rear sight. In any case, replacing the rear sight on either rifle is a very simple and quick process.

Both carbines use an A2 style front sight post adjustable for elevation. Many individuals who plan to use a scope or a red dot sight exclusively don't want a front sight post which is understandable. A flip-up rear sight can be fit on many flat top carbines as a back up. But red dot sights, despite being very frequently described as "parallax free" have been shown to be susceptible to parallax error. Here is a link that will tell you more than you ever wish to know about the issue of parallax error with red dot sights:

http://www.dropbox.com/s/5zgsq2kq6jr...rt%20.pdf?dl=0

A front sight post by allowing you to index the dot of a RDS at the top of the front post or directly above it, can actually help you maintain a consistent sight picture with such an optic, to reduce or eliminate parallax error. If you wish to use a magnified optic, at any magnification of 3X or greater, you probably won't even see the front sight post.

One potential problem with either the M&P Sport II or the Ruger AR 556 is the plastic furniture they come with. The furniture is nearly the same for both. Both come with a very basic polymer hand guard that does not easily allow mounting any accessories such as a light. Of course, you can swap the hand guard on either pretty easily, but it might make better financial sense to shop for a carbine that allows more flexibility in mounting options from the start.

The Ruger AR 556 MPR is a very nice rifle but it has an 18 inch barrel which might not be the best option if you have home defense in mind.

I certainly agree with those who suggest that a red dot sight or non-magnified prism scope with etched reticle (like the Vortex Spitfire previously mentioned) is the best option for quick target acquisition in a close quarters encounter. I am not sure that I would be inclined to buy a $500 entry-level carbine and then stick an expensive Eotech or Aimpoint on it as there are less expensive options that I think could serve as well. I do have a Vortex Spitfire 1X prism scope on an AR 556 and I think it is a good option. In addition to the central dot it has two concentric circular etched reticles that make quick target acquisition quite easy. And since it uses an etched reticle, you can use it even if the illumination is not switched on, or the battery goes down.

Another cost effective option are some of the SIG Romeo 5 options or very similar models from Holosun. These have an instant-on motion detection system that turns on the illumination with any movement of the carbine. I have used the SIG Romeo 5 and the MOTAC motion detection system works very well.

There will be many inclined to say that a less expensive red dot sight cannot be trusted and you are risking your life if you do not go with a Trijicon ACOG, an Aimpoint, or at least an Eotech. There is a thread over on AR15 forum on optics that was started by the fellow who runs the "Battlefield Vegas". This range rents all sorts of carbines and they get run long and hard. The owner has found that the Romeo 5 has held up very well under this abuse. His comments are on page 8 of that thread.

A cost-effective option that might afford you considerably more flexibility than buying a complete carbine off the shelf would be to simply buy a separate complete upper and lower from Palmetto State Armory. They sell a wide variety of AR uppers and lowers with many different furniture, barrel, and sight options and they are always having sales.

Kirosha · June 23, 2018, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pblanc

The Ruger AR 556 MPR is a very nice rifle but it has an 18 inch barrel which might not be the best option if you have home defense in mind.

Overall length of the AR556 is 32.25" - 35.50" while the MPR is 35" - 38.25". The MPR doesn't come with any sight, but my previous recommendation of Ozark Armament would run you an additional $30 - $80 bucks plus shipping:

Flip up backup sights for $30
Offset sights, dedicated $30 or flip up, $30
Red/Green Dot, absolute co-witness, $50

I would agree that the M&P 15 would be another good choice against the AR556 but the upgrades that come from the MPR outweigh most. Those same upgrades would cost far more if you choose to do them later or build an AR yourself.

riffraff · June 23, 2018, 09:21 PM

Romeo 5's are < $100 on Ebay at the moment, they have a 15% off thing going on some sporting stuff and many of them are priced at < $120 there to start (new, not bidding or 2nd rate stuff).

They do make several models of the Romeo 5, not sure what's what, but one difference is batteries - AAA versus the button batteries (I say who cares, buy a few packs of button batteries for zombie times, but appears maybe the AAA models are more $$ due to popularity).

PSA would be even cheaper for the same I've been suggesting w/ Aero and you could get something more specialized to "home defense", ie a lightweight setup with a handguard suited for a laser, flashlight, red dot, whatever you want to add.

Personally I think flat tops w/ an A2 sight are stupid - get the carry handle upper for rugged sights on both ends, or get something without the sight in the way, but that design to me seems like the worst of all worlds (and I own 2 of them, one I'm using a carry handle rear sight with until I get around to changing the upper out for one w/ the built in handle/sight, other stored in perpetuity)....

Since we are throwing brand names around of complete rifles - Stag is another one that makes a good budget simple AR, that's my beater that I use for wasting ammo - literally have not had a single failure in the last 1000 rounds. Seems to have a couple little touches above and beyond the Ruger 556, one being a metal heat shield on the hand guard - nothing expensive but simply built a little better, chrome barrel as well, and although mil spec mine has a much better feeling trigger than the Ruger.

jmr40 · June 23, 2018, 09:46 PM

A conventional scope set on 1X is faster to use than dots or irons and doesn't use batteries. They make them with illuminated reticles, but I don't think they are worth the trouble and expense. But if you want to spend the extra for them they don't hurt.

A 1-4X scope is a good option with 4X giving enough magnification for 300ish yard shots on human or deer size targets. They make 1-6X and 1-8x versions that provide more magnification for longer shots or more precision to hit smaller targets such as varmints.

MrBot · June 24, 2018, 01:14 AM

Wow, jmr40, that's interesting. Burris has the Fullfield TAC30, 1-4 X 24 with a Red Dot that sits atop it that I saw online. But maybe all I'd really need would be the scope. I'll have to study my notes as I don't remember if I'd need offset BUIS with a scope.

June 18, 2018, 01:38 PM	#1
MrBot Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2013 Posts: 113	Scope set-up on AR for hd & target shooting Looking at the possibility of picking up something like the Ruger AR556 to have available should things go bump in the night. I'm thinking I'd want to attach a light with a pressure switch. Do I wanna go with iron sights with see-through rings for close shots, or would I be better off with maybe a 1-4x scope, fold down the rear sight & get rings high enough to clear the front sight? I've read the Ruger has a peep--which I'd think would be useless for quick acquisition--so maybe that could be replaced. ..not sure if the S&W Sport 2 has a rear sight that would serve me better or not, but that li'l rifle may be a good choice too.

June 18, 2018, 01:48 PM	#2
MTT TL Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2009 Location: Quadling Country Posts: 2,780	I have an EOtech with 3X flip away magnifier behind. Works perfect for target shooting and self defense. There are flip up BUIS, however offset iron sights work just as well and are going to be faster. __________________ Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.

June 20, 2018, 01:06 AM	#10
Steve in PA Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 1999 Location: Northeastern PA Posts: 756	For home defense, I would stick with iron sights or a red dot. Scopes would be more for range or extended distance use. I would never use a scope on my home defense AR. I have two AR's, one is set up with an Aimpoint PRO and the other has iron sights. Both have Surefire lights mounted in Elzetta mounts. If or when you mount a scope on your AR, there is no need to get high scope mounts to clear the front sight as; 1) the scope would be way to high and, 2) you will never notice the front sight through the scope. __________________ Steve

June 20, 2018, 08:32 AM	#13
Joe-ker Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2016 Location: North Iowa Posts: 247	I put a cheap reflex on my AR556. It was the first "battery operated" sight for me so I wasn't going to break the bank in case I didn't care for it. I didn't care for the peep sight on the ruger. Let's just say I am sold on them and plan on replacing it with a higher end one. I use mine for HD and casual shooting. I love the reflex---- for HD it's excellent. Low light/almost complete darkness it's excellent. I like that I can keep both eyes open for total awareness. It is a bit dim in bright sunshine though. I know it's a cheapy so for HD it's not ideal. Plus turning on in HD situation may not be practical so will probably replace with a Primary Arms red dot. __________________ From my cold dead hands.....

June 23, 2018, 09:46 PM	#24
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,808	A conventional scope set on 1X is faster to use than dots or irons and doesn't use batteries. They make them with illuminated reticles, but I don't think they are worth the trouble and expense. But if you want to spend the extra for them they don't hurt. A 1-4X scope is a good option with 4X giving enough magnification for 300ish yard shots on human or deer size targets. They make 1-6X and 1-8x versions that provide more magnification for longer shots or more precision to hit smaller targets such as varmints. __________________ "If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong" Winston Churchill

June 18, 2018, 04:22 PM	#3
KY_blkout Member Join Date: June 10, 2018 Posts: 67	For quick acquisition red dot is the way to go, you can find quality red dots from 200-400 all day long that will serve your purpose well.

June 18, 2018, 07:30 PM	#4
marine6680 Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2012 Location: Parker, CO Posts: 4,594	If you want a home defense rifle... Red dot... Always red dot. There is no true do it all setup, and often trying to do more than one thing with a rifle ends up compromising everything. O feel an ACOG and offset red dot works pretty well as a general use rifle for many situations... But if HD is a goal, I focus on that only when setting up the rifle. My current HD rifle has a Red dot sight, and always will.

June 18, 2018, 07:43 PM	#5
2damnold4this Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2009 Location: Athens, Georgia Posts: 2,526	What about an Aimpoint Pro?

June 18, 2018, 07:44 PM	#6
LineStretcher Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2018 Posts: 619	I have a little battle rattle AR15 with a red dot and 3x fold away multiplier. Works great from zero to 100 yards. It's not a precision rifle but its light and quick.

June 19, 2018, 06:58 AM	#8
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	For HD, nothing beats a laser.

June 19, 2018, 04:12 PM	#9
MrBot Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2013 Posts: 113	I admit: my bad; my original post is misleading. The purpose of this rifle will be hd, not target shooting. I'll configure the AR for defense against home intruders & I'll do so for low light/total darkness conditions. Target shooting will be secondary--I'll do so for fun & more importantly to become adept @ handling my set-up. ..not sure if I'll limit myself to selecting an AR @ this x & studying lights, switches & optics later, or just wait & get the whole kit & kaboodle later after I've studied my options. I do know, however, I'm kinda itching to send lead downrange so I'm leaning toward option 1. Plus--always looking for excuses to pick up that next new, cool gizmo--I could always use the excuse a basic AR in the bedroom NOW would trump holding off & not having it should the unthinkable occur. You can't use what you don't have.

June 20, 2018, 07:49 AM	#11
Scoits Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2017 Posts: 178	Burris 1” scope mount with Picatinny capability on top of rings. Use a low power scope sighted in for a hundred yds and a Crimson Trace rail mount sighted in for 15 yds for HD. No need to mount the rifle to the shoulder with a laser. Can mount a small flashlight on the other ring if wanted.

June 20, 2018, 08:27 AM	#12
riffraff Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2016 Posts: 629	I'm not sure I ever understand the idea of a rifle for "home" defense. You can get a very normal looking 9mm pistol that holds 20 rounds, which to me is much better for the home. If you really want the handiest out of the box close range sort of rifle, ie shorter range but easy and light - a pencil barrel and lightweight guard sort of setup is going to be the way to go I think. I've got an Aero 16 inch pencil barrel w/ a 12 inch Atlas s-one guard I picked up as a toy but is basically something along those lines - light, easy to handle, perfectly fine for under 100 yards. You can get something like that, or something similar, without knowing anything about AR's. You buy a complete upper, and a complete lower, and snap them together. There are sales on the stuff all the time, without a killer deal would not be much more than $750 to get a rifle that way, which is going to be a better quality setup as well as more along the lines of what you want it for compared to a low end Ruger - nice not to have an iron sight in the way if you put a red dot on it too, or to be able to put a set of light flip ups on it to be used out of range of the laser. There are sales every other week on most of this stuff if you sign up for their mailer, one just ended at 15% off... Lightweight upper (you would need to buy a bolt carrier assembly and charging handle, which is about another $150): https://aeroprecisionusa.com/m4e1-th...handguard.html Lower - they have an enhanced and standard AR15 versions, I like the enhanced because it takes the same parts but has some nice improvements/features, but those are out of stock at the moment while they do have the regular AR15 versions in stock at the moment. https://aeroprecisionusa.com/m4e1-co...ock-black.html https://aeroprecisionusa.com/ar15-co...-standard.html

June 20, 2018, 09:00 PM	#14
MrBot Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2013 Posts: 113	Some darned good info! This is getting interesting. I'll study all of these possible solutions & see where it leads me. Have been more into handguns the last few years & only recently warmed to the AR so @ this point all of these ideas are new to me. Since I've just now begun studying the AR carbine I'm gonna hold off on making any predictions as to where this'll all end. But it sure does seem as though about everyone's in favor of red dot so that may be the direction I take. I also like the idea of building my own. Bigger project but if it's not an overwhelming one it'd be pretty cool doing so. Right now educating myself on all this is gonna be my top priority. Should be fun if doable though.

June 20, 2018, 09:44 PM	#15
USCS Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 114	I like the Vortex Spitfire with its etched in donut style reticle. If I want to light it up I can. If the battery is dead, I can still use it. That said I have a Leupold European 30 on my .300 blk. HD rifle. I have a Surefire light on that one which provides enough light to see recticle at a cross the room distances. I’m a fan of optics that will work without batteries if I need to.

June 21, 2018, 12:11 AM	#17
KY_blkout Member Join Date: June 10, 2018 Posts: 67	Getting into ARs is like going down a rabbit hole, everytime you think this will be my last one you come up with another reason why you need a different setup. That's a big part of the fun for me, welcome to the dark side of rifles lol

June 21, 2018, 11:54 AM	#18
Kirosha Member Join Date: June 20, 2018 Location: South Alabama Posts: 87	I would definitely point you towards the AR 556 MPR as a cheap upgrade to the base model. That said, I use the Ozark Armament Rhino Red and Green Dot. Affordable and it has never had an issue.

June 22, 2018, 09:41 PM	#19
MrBot Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2013 Posts: 113	Ok, I'll study the optics suggested & try & get some suggestions on a better carbine than the 2 entry level models I mentioned. I also gotta find a light--preferably without a cord between the light & switch--& study its mount so I can figure out what's needed @ the fore end. I don't have a lotta free x due to work, so if I buy something like a kit it'd have to be darned simple to put together. If not, I'd better stick with 1 already assembled. ..would love to build my own but the boss man ain't giving me much time off.

June 23, 2018, 09:41 AM	#21
pblanc Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2008 Location: Indiana Posts: 697	I won't get into the issue of whether an AR type carbine is a good home self-defense option. It is not my first choice, but there are certainly many people who think it is an ideal choice for some. Personally, I think both the Ruger AR 556 and the Smith and Wesson M&P Sport II are perfectly good carbines. As for barrel lining, it might be of great value if you anticipate using the rifle in inclement weather conditions for protracted periods, and it might result in longer barrel life (sometimes at a slight cost in accuracy) but that might be a non-issue for those who are unlikely to shoot many thousands of rounds through the rifle. You asked about the rear sight differences between the Ruger AR 556 and the M&P Sport II. They both use plastic flip-up rear peep sights. The M&P uses a Magpul MBUS rear sight with two different available peep apertures. The Ruger uses a proprietary rear sight with only a single rear peep aperture that is roughly equivalent to the smaller peep aperture of the Magpul MBUS. The Magpul MBUS has a release lever to flip the sight up on both sides. The Ruger sight has a release button on only one side. So in those regards, the M&P sight is a little "better". But for close quarters use you would want to use the larger peep aperture. If you didn't need the smaller aperture you could easily enlarge the peep aperture on the Ruger sight with a drill bit. The small aperture is better for accuracy at longer distance. But to tell the truth, most individuals who are going to want to use "iron" sights for distance shooting with either rifle are probably going to want to use a different (better) rear sight. In any case, replacing the rear sight on either rifle is a very simple and quick process. Both carbines use an A2 style front sight post adjustable for elevation. Many individuals who plan to use a scope or a red dot sight exclusively don't want a front sight post which is understandable. A flip-up rear sight can be fit on many flat top carbines as a back up. But red dot sights, despite being very frequently described as "parallax free" have been shown to be susceptible to parallax error. Here is a link that will tell you more than you ever wish to know about the issue of parallax error with red dot sights: http://www.dropbox.com/s/5zgsq2kq6jr...rt%20.pdf?dl=0 A front sight post by allowing you to index the dot of a RDS at the top of the front post or directly above it, can actually help you maintain a consistent sight picture with such an optic, to reduce or eliminate parallax error. If you wish to use a magnified optic, at any magnification of 3X or greater, you probably won't even see the front sight post. One potential problem with either the M&P Sport II or the Ruger AR 556 is the plastic furniture they come with. The furniture is nearly the same for both. Both come with a very basic polymer hand guard that does not easily allow mounting any accessories such as a light. Of course, you can swap the hand guard on either pretty easily, but it might make better financial sense to shop for a carbine that allows more flexibility in mounting options from the start. The Ruger AR 556 MPR is a very nice rifle but it has an 18 inch barrel which might not be the best option if you have home defense in mind. I certainly agree with those who suggest that a red dot sight or non-magnified prism scope with etched reticle (like the Vortex Spitfire previously mentioned) is the best option for quick target acquisition in a close quarters encounter. I am not sure that I would be inclined to buy a $500 entry-level carbine and then stick an expensive Eotech or Aimpoint on it as there are less expensive options that I think could serve as well. I do have a Vortex Spitfire 1X prism scope on an AR 556 and I think it is a good option. In addition to the central dot it has two concentric circular etched reticles that make quick target acquisition quite easy. And since it uses an etched reticle, you can use it even if the illumination is not switched on, or the battery goes down. Another cost effective option are some of the SIG Romeo 5 options or very similar models from Holosun. These have an instant-on motion detection system that turns on the illumination with any movement of the carbine. I have used the SIG Romeo 5 and the MOTAC motion detection system works very well. There will be many inclined to say that a less expensive red dot sight cannot be trusted and you are risking your life if you do not go with a Trijicon ACOG, an Aimpoint, or at least an Eotech. There is a thread over on AR15 forum on optics that was started by the fellow who runs the "Battlefield Vegas". This range rents all sorts of carbines and they get run long and hard. The owner has found that the Romeo 5 has held up very well under this abuse. His comments are on page 8 of that thread. A cost-effective option that might afford you considerably more flexibility than buying a complete carbine off the shelf would be to simply buy a separate complete upper and lower from Palmetto State Armory. They sell a wide variety of AR uppers and lowers with many different furniture, barrel, and sight options and they are always having sales.

June 23, 2018, 09:21 PM	#23
riffraff Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2016 Posts: 629	Romeo 5's are < $100 on Ebay at the moment, they have a 15% off thing going on some sporting stuff and many of them are priced at < $120 there to start (new, not bidding or 2nd rate stuff). They do make several models of the Romeo 5, not sure what's what, but one difference is batteries - AAA versus the button batteries (I say who cares, buy a few packs of button batteries for zombie times, but appears maybe the AAA models are more $$ due to popularity). PSA would be even cheaper for the same I've been suggesting w/ Aero and you could get something more specialized to "home defense", ie a lightweight setup with a handguard suited for a laser, flashlight, red dot, whatever you want to add. Personally I think flat tops w/ an A2 sight are stupid - get the carry handle upper for rugged sights on both ends, or get something without the sight in the way, but that design to me seems like the worst of all worlds (and I own 2 of them, one I'm using a carry handle rear sight with until I get around to changing the upper out for one w/ the built in handle/sight, other stored in perpetuity).... Since we are throwing brand names around of complete rifles - Stag is another one that makes a good budget simple AR, that's my beater that I use for wasting ammo - literally have not had a single failure in the last 1000 rounds. Seems to have a couple little touches above and beyond the Ruger 556, one being a metal heat shield on the hand guard - nothing expensive but simply built a little better, chrome barrel as well, and although mil spec mine has a much better feeling trigger than the Ruger.

June 24, 2018, 01:14 AM	#25
MrBot Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2013 Posts: 113	Wow, jmr40, that's interesting. Burris has the Fullfield TAC30, 1-4 X 24 with a Red Dot that sits atop it that I saw online. But maybe all I'd really need would be the scope. I'll have to study my notes as I don't remember if I'd need offset BUIS with a scope.