Casting for HK91/G3

[45flaco]

CAUTION: The following thread includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I didn't see much information on loading lead for HK91 style rifles. I know it seems like a funny idea, but I went ahead and tried it with what I had on hand. After a few tries, I worked up a load that functions flawlessly and has good enough accuracy for a battle rifle.

WARNING: I am not an expert, use any loads at own risk!

I was using PMC cases, cause they're cheap, CCI large rifle primers, same reason. For the charge, I found 35 grains of BL-C(2) to be the minimum necessary to cycle the G3 reliably. I did not use any filler, all charges were weighed.
For the bullet, I used a lee C312-185-1R. I used wheel weights, quenched immediately in ice water. I didn't size the bullets or use gas checks. For lube I used mobil 1 synthetic axle grease. It never dries, so I applied it right before seating the bullet. I seated to right after the front grease groove. I don't have a chrono, so I have no idea how fast these go, I suspect they are fairly slow, as this is a light load of Bl-C(2). It is a smoky round, but doesn't seem to leave unburned powder, and doesn't leave leading in the barrel.

If anyone else has loads for cast bullets that work in a G3, I would appreciate it! Also, if someone has like 10 of the lee TL309-230-5R cast bullets that they could send me, I would be glad to pay shipping, and trade a few of my bullets. I really want to try these, but don't want to buy the mold until I know they work. I think the 230 grains might be a bit too long, but only one way to know.

[Bimus]

Good information
Keep posting what you learn

[45flaco]

Also, these loads work just as well in 7.62x54r. They kick a hell of a lot less than the mil-surp, and lead is a lot softer than steel jacketed, so it's better for the gun. OTOH, my mosin rotted in the mud on a potato farm for close to 70 years, and after shooting the rust out of the barrel, it works just fine. Steel jackets may not be a problem.
I DO recommend this load to anyone who has children that want to shoot a mosin or 308 for the first time, it is far more pleasant than the factory ammo for either.

If anyone gets a chance to Chrono these, I'd love to see what velocity they're at, cause right now I'm flying blind.

[45flaco]

This bullet will also work with about 13 grains of blue dot or v-n350, but neither will cycle the gun reliably. Am currently working on incrementally increasing v-n350 to get function, as this is a fairly accurate load inside of 200 yards, and is dead silent. If anyone else has some cast loads for semiauto 308s, or even better, wants to trade some cast bullets, reply or pm me! I'm always ready to learn or try something new.

[Bimus]

I have loaded some cast bullets to try in my HK 91 this weekend and chronograph.
190 grains and 200grains with gas checks using win 748 it was the closest burn rate to BLC 2

[armoredman]

Cast can work just fine in a gas gun - I do cast in 7.62x39mm and ,223. God stuff, thanks for sharing! Have you tried powder coating? That really cleaned things up for me, gas checked.

[45flaco]

I'm actually waiting for my powder coating equipment. (Goodwill has no toaster oven right now). But am really excited to try this. What bullet mold is the 200 grain? I was thinking of doing some heavy for caliber, because bl-c2 doesn't like light bullets like the 150s, so I'm thinking a 200 might shrink my groups. Thanks for sharing, and keep us updated with Chrono results!

[Bimus]

Both molds are Lee the gas checks I made using a Pat Marlins Checkmaker .
I like using using the aluminum beer cans that are shaped like bottles are .008 thick and work great the plain aluminum cans are .004 thick .

[45flaco]

Did your loads require a gas check or was it preemptive? Mine have all been unchecked, and have had no signs of leading. Only fired about 50 rounds so far, but no problems yet. What lead mix are you casting?
I usually use WW, but might try some lyman #2 just to see how it works.

@armoredman
What kind of powder coat are you using?

[Bimus]

This is my first time loading cast in a HK91 I was not sure what to expect I have always loaded ammo close to what military loads where .
My load information came from the Speer cast bullet manual # 1 dated 1986
cast bullets that are made for gas checks I have always put gas checks on them my lead is wheel weights . all loads worked the action and reloaded the next round and the brass was thrown 10 or 12 feet away .I had one round get the bullet pushed in to the case when the bolt was trying to push it in to the chamber





190gr cast Winchester 748 gas checked
36.2 grains FPS 1917
37.5 grains FPS 2053

200 gr cast Winchester 748 gas checked
36.2 grains FPS 1868

37.5 grains FPS 1990

[armoredman]

45flaco, I have both Harbor Freight and a tiny bit of Smokes stuff left over. Of the two, Smokes stuff, from castboolits.gunloads.com is the best. I do the shake and bake method, very cheap and easy.

[45flaco]

Just a random observation, at 40 grains and below, BL-(c)2 in this tends to smoke a lot. At 40 grains, it is very near to a compressed load. Does anyone know if this is a powder that does better with compression? I know it likes magnum primers, but I don't have any right now, and was wondering if maybe some compression would accomplish the same thing. Or any other tips for BL-(c)2 style and surplus powders

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

Just a suggestion:
As I believe the 91s roller-bolt was gas operated. You fellers wanting to shoot near a full case of middle category on the list of smokeless rifle powder under a non-gas checked cast lead might be better off reloading powder coated lead cast powered up with a quicker burning lever rifle powder.

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by Sure Shot Mc Gee

Just a suggestion:
As I believe the 91s roller-bolt was gas operated. You fellers wanting to shoot near a full case of middle category on the list of smokeless rifle powder under a non-gas checked cast lead might be better off reloading powder coated lead cast powered up with a quicker burning lever rifle powder.

Roller lock is most certainly not gas operated. One quirk about roller lock action is that the load need to generate enough force to unlock the action. Cast bullet loads are not exactly strong in this department.

-TL

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

[45flaco]

@ sure shot,
I actually haven't had any problems getting the lead to cycle with mild loads, my problem is accuracy. Even as little as 35 grains BL-(c)2 will reliably cycle. However, due to the accuracy issue, I'm interested in your table on things. I don't own a lever gun, and this is my first experience with cast bullets. What kind of lever gun powder would you recommend? I am already planning to do powder coating.

[Unclenick]

It may be a good thing that it is a roller-delayed blow-back operated rifle because 45flaco is not using gas checks. A gas gun usually gets some gas-cut lead blown into the gas port if gas checks are not used. It shouldn't matter to the G3 as long as the recoil impulse is adequate to move the locking piece out of the way of the rollers.

45flaco, what is your gun's barrel length? Is it 17.7" like the A3? Nobody can guess at velocity without that information.

Also, using an unsized 0.312" bullet instead of a .309" in a 7.62×51 chamber means the barrel is sizing the bullet down to .308, and the more sizing it has to do, the more chance it will do an uneven job, moving the bullet CG off the bore axis and opening groups up. I've seen some guns do better about accuracy with cast bullets 0.002" over groove diameter, but once the bullets got to 0.003" over the groove diameter, accuracy was usually not as good. The only exception is old .45 Colt revolvers with 0.454" chambers and 0.451" groove diameter in the barrel. It seems to matter more in that instance to match the chamber throat than the groove diameter. I can't say for sure with your particular gun, but I generally try for 0.001" or 0.002" over and see if I see improvement.

[45flaco]

I just checked, its about 18", so probably the standard 17.7" It also has a pinned and welded 2" brake on the end of that, which I do not know if it affects velocity.
I have not yet sized these bullets, as I bought the mold for a Mosin which is .312 bore, and I do not have a sizing die yet. I do plan to get one, but am waiting for hopefully a 4th of July sale at midway or something similar, hopefully with free shipping.
I am also still slightly confused by the smoke these make. I have checked for unburned powder, and as far as I can tell, there is none. My only guess is either the grease I am using, or the empty space in the case.
Any ideas?

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by 45flaco

I just checked, its about 18", so probably the standard 17.7" It also has a pinned and welded 2" brake on the end of that, which I do not know if it affects velocity.
I have not yet sized these bullets, as I bought the mold for a Mosin which is .312 bore, and I do not have a sizing die yet. I do plan to get one, but am waiting for hopefully a 4th of July sale at midway or something similar, hopefully with free shipping.
I am also still slightly confused by the smoke these make. I have checked for unburned powder, and as far as I can tell, there is none. My only guess is either the grease I am using, or the empty space in the case.
Any ideas?

The smoke is likely due to the lube applied to the cast bullets. I found trail boss hardly ever causes smoke. I like that powder and am going order more. I heard alliant 2400 is also great for cast bullet loads. I am going to it a try.

-TL

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

[Bimus]

This weekend I shot one 20 magazine no malfunctions I tried to get a group off hand best I got was about 4 inches at 70 yards the long heavy trigger pull made it hard to hold on a target it was better sweeping to the target and firing still more work to be done .
Load tested
Winchester 748 37.5 grains Lee 200 grain gas check sized to 309 FPS 1990

I have never tried to shoot group with this rifle before I need to shoot a group of 7.62 x 51 mm to have a base to work from .

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

45flaco

When I purchased my 742 carbine and I a freshman at reloading. I was informed by a reloading shop owner who was very knowledgeable he suggested the use of different faster burning powders for my rifles use. As told most of the published charges for my caliber involving middle of the burn rate powders applicable were calibrated for manual closing bolt rifle and that a ported semi auto was better suited to quicker burning powders in regards for reliable operation. So for many years I've reloaded Dupont/IMR 3031. My Rifle hasn't skipped a beat with the squeezing of its trigger. After some load tweaking development the rifle can hold its own with other competition. (levers_pump and some bolts) As far as bullets. Thats a whole different story in itself. Just so you know I will not shoot a lead cast intended for hunting purposes without it being Gas/Checked irregardless of its BHN factor.

[45flaco]

@sureshot
The only rifle powder I have tried is the blc2, but if 3031 works for you, I might try it. I have tried pistol powders such as 13 grains of v-n350, but it did not cycle reliably.

As far as gas checks go, I havent used them, but am planning to powder coat when I finally get my supplies. While I haven't had any leading yet, I do plan to try some full power loads that I think would cause leading without being coated.

[gwpercle]

Originally Posted by 45flaco

I didn't see much information on loading lead for HK91 style rifles. I know it seems like a funny idea, but I went ahead and tried it with what I had on hand. After a few tries, I worked up a load that functions flawlessly and has good enough accuracy for a battle rifle.

WARNING: I am not an expert, use any loads at own risk!

I was using PMC cases, cause they're cheap, CCI large rifle primers, same reason. For the charge, I found 35 grains of BL-C(2) to be the minimum necessary to cycle the G3 reliably. I did not use any filler, all charges were weighed.
For the bullet, I used a lee C312-185-1R. I used wheel weights, quenched immediately in ice water. I didn't size the bullets or use gas checks. For lube I used mobil 1 synthetic axle grease. It never dries, so I applied it right before seating the bullet. I seated to right after the front grease groove. I don't have a chrono, so I have no idea how fast these go, I suspect they are fairly slow, as this is a light load of Bl-C(2). It is a smoky round, but doesn't seem to leave unburned powder, and doesn't leave leading in the barrel.

If anyone else has loads for cast bullets that work in a G3, I would appreciate it! Also, if someone has like 10 of the lee TL309-230-5R cast bullets that they could send me, I would be glad to pay shipping, and trade a few of my bullets. I really want to try these, but don't want to buy the mold until I know they work. I think the 230 grains might be a bit too long, but only one way to know.

What round is this data for ...308 Winchester (7.62 X 51 ) ?
Not all of us are familiar with a HK 91/G3 .

[45flaco]

.308 Winchester or 7.62x51. My bad, completely forgot to specify. Most of these loads are not listed in manuals, so anything on here is at your own risk.
While they have worked in g3 style rifles, be cautious firing out of other .308s, as results may vary. Best of luck, and sorry for the confusion.

[gwpercle]

Thanks for info , did some research on the HK 91/G3 and learned some of the history of it .
Interesting rifle that I was clueless about. Development went back to the 1950's .

Try sizing your bullets to .309 . With cast bullets and accuracy , proper size in relation to the bore , is way more important than hardness.
Don't forget that powder coating will enlarge a bullet even more.
Some size , powder coat, then size again . All that sizing keeps me with my Lyman 450... size once and done .
I've had my best accuracy in a 03A3 Springfield , 30-06 , with COWW + 1% tin , air cooled , gas checked , sized .309 and lubricated with a lithium beeswax lube.

Sometimes too hard and oversize can play havoc with accuracy . Might want to try omitting the ice water dropping and try air cooled .

Powder coating may be better than conventional lubes but I would still attach a gas check and size to .001 over bore diameter.
I have always had accuracy improve when a gas check is applied to a bullet has the base cut for one and if the velocity is near or over 1600 fps .

Getting semi autos to feed, fire, eject and accurately shoot cast bullet loads is trying on the soul and gives you reason to say profanities.....but keep at it , you will eventually get it all sorted out. You've got the functioning down....just accuracy to contend with .
Good luck.
Gary

[45flaco]

@gwpercle,
I took your advice, and cast some without water dropping, will coat them later today, see how it goes.
I don't have a sizing die yet, but will be getting one this weekend.
I appreciate the help!