Norinco shotguns

[zouave]

Has anyone had any experience with the new norinco shotguns?

They are making a variant of the Ithica 37, Which is selling for approximately $97 wholesale.

I understand that they are also making an inexpensive version of the old Win. 97.

Zouave

Hey this is my first post on this board. Hi guys!

[Cosmoline]

I took a look at one of the '97 "clones" a few days ago. It felt like it was about to fall apart in my hands. The action was simply horrible. There is NO WAY I would trust that POS with real shotgun shells. Sadly, Norinco is about the only company making replicas of the '97, at least that I know of.

[General Tso]

Yep, Norinco is the only game in town for '97 clones. However, there are still a lot of original 97's out there. prices have been steadily climbing with thier popularity in CAS though.

I haven't gotten my hands on the Commie '97 yet but I've read a bit from the guys on the SASS Wire who have. One guy is a custom smith that slicks up original 97's for CAS shooting. He took two of them apart, miked them, checked teh metalurgy etc. His impression was pretty much as follows: basically solid replica of an early solid frame 97. Metalurgy was good, stocks were rough, and parts locked up solidly but seemed "pre-worn". His guess was that they used a well used original as a template and backwards engineered from it so the new ones are coming spec'ed out like a used one! he felt that with some minor honing and smoothing out they'd serve well for CAS applications.

A coupel of other guys got them and had similar opinions: a little rough bt once broken in a bit worked fine.

The key for thier success is probably going to depend on teh politics of the buyer and what thier end price ends up being. If they get past $300 I don't see the point. I still see nice originals ranging from $250 (rarer nowadays) to high $300's and between the two I'd prefer an original. If teh stay closer to $200, or even under, they'll probably do okay, presuming they hold up long term.

That said, I'm not sure I'd trust them for anything other than CAS competition with light loads. The guys I talked with on the net had only used them with CAS level loads, nothing heavier. Guns & Ammo reviewed them this month and I believe they tried some buck loads out of their test 97 but not too many rounds. IIRC they mentioned recoil being rather unpleasant with it's 20" barrel and hard plastic buttplate .

[zouave]

Thanks for the insight guys. I will have to pick up the new Guns and Ammo and check it out. Does anyone know if they have a website?

Zouave

[General Tso]

Can't find a website for &A (doesn't mean thier isn't one, just that I didn't find it ).

Found this on the Norinco 97 though:

"Norinco 1897 Pump Shotgun (Winchester '97 replica) 12 ga. 20" bbl., only have several of them "in-stock" New-In-Box, $339.00"

http://home.inreach.com/sass338/guns.html

At that price I'd be hard pressed not to look around for a used Winchester. I picked up my 97 for $250 a couple of years ago and after having it checked out and brought up to snuff by a smith and having teh wood and metal refinished (rust blued even) I still have just under $400 in it.

[Cosmoline]

Ditto on the high price--the one I looked at was $350! There were excellent vintage riot shotguns next to it for $150-$200. I suspect the SASS rules may be the reason for the high price on the '97 clones. I've been shopping around for vintage '97's and I managed to track down several in basically good condition for under $400, though most of them needed parts or an overhaul. I've now switched my focus to later model trench guns with 20th century designs. I'm hoping this will put them out of the CAS inflation zone.

[Bowser]

I may be wrong, but I believe that Norinco's are all manufactured in China. Slave labor helps to explain the low cost and poor quality. Not to mention that the dollars we send to China may come back at us in the form of bullets and missiles.

Bowser.

[Kernel]

Guns & Ammo web site.

-- Kernel, NRA Life Member

[Dave McC]

My feelings on ChiCom shotguns can be found in the Archives.

If questionable metals,slave labor,indifferent manufacturing, patent infringment, and supporting the last large dictatorship left on Earth(and the likeliest adversary in our next war) doesn't bother you, have at it.

[Ewok_Guy]

http://www.gunsandammomag.com

[General Tso]

The metalurigcal analysis that was done by the SASS smith indicated that the Chicom 97's were actually pretty good. Some of the criticism of Chinese metalurgy is overblown, they aren't nearly as bad as many of the Spanish firearms for example.

I have yet to see a Chinese gun that hasn't worked. They certainly ain't always pretty but they get the specs right where they need to be. That's more than can be said of even some of the big name US manufacturers! I'm sure there are some lemons out there, just like stuff from any other manufacturer, but by and large I've seen much fewer complaints when it it comes to function with ChiCom stuff than with most other stuff.

As to the slave labor issue, if you don't buy Norinco's then the Chinese will just put those poor people to work doing something even more horrible than making guns! You'll be directly contributing to the worsening of thier suffering and working conditions!!

Plus, it's prison labor. Not a huge difference in this case considering what you can be jailed for in China but a subtle one. The US uses prison labor too for the production of license plates, institutional furniture, prison and LE uniforms etc. Those guys aren't exactly getting a fair market wage for thier work either .

Seriously though, I don't own any Chicom guns anymore either and don't expect to be buying any, but I do get a little irratated when I see everyone get up on their soapbox every time someone asks about a Chinese weapon.

I'm pretty sure we all know the political situation in China by now, why don't we leave it up to the individual to let thier moral compass decide for them? I have yet to see someone come on here and post "Hey, guys, why don't you lecture me the morality of buying guns from China and berate me for considering them?". People are asking about the quality of the guns themselves and peoples experiences with them, not for a civics lecture.

Sorry, just one of my pet peeves. I'm willing to bet that everyone here lecturing about buying Chinese firearms has other Chinese made products in thier house too. Don't think so? Check all your electronics, inside and out, clothes, shoes, toys, etc. Still don't think so? Rip apart the computer you're looking at right now. Odds are greater than not that some of the components (especially the cases and power supplies) are made in China. Like it or not an enormous amount of our consumer goods come from China, not just guns.

So ask yourself this: is it more moral to by consumer electronics, or clothes or toys from the Chinese than it is to buy firearms? Guess which products contribute more to their economy. It ain't thier gun industry.

Everyones certainly entitled to thier own opinion on this one or course, this is just mine . I just don't get why people can't just address a guys questions without the need to lecture all the time.

[Dave McC]

Check your E mail, General...

[cuerno de chivo]

No slaves. No patent infringements. Extremely dubious comments about metal.

[Bowser]

General,

by all means, you are right to post what you did.

Regarding quality, which should be of the utmost concern in a gun most likely to be used for home defense, a $97 price tag on a gun should speak for itself.

Americans should buy American, especially when a better quality gun is the product. You can get used 870's and Mossies for $150. Both will beat the Norinco's hands down.

Bowser.

[General Tso]

I can't really argue with you there Bowser. Always get the best you can afford, and in the case of shotguns it doesn't really cost that much to move into something better.

Maybe I came across harsher than I intended and if so, I apologize for that. It just seemed like any time anyone even asks a question about a Chinese gun they get jumped on for it.

Like I said, I don't own any of the Chicom stuff anymore either and probably won't be buying any in the forseeable future, but I do still track the progress of thier guns, both commercial and military issue, mostly for general knowledge sake. If someone's curious about them I'll pass on what I've learned.

I'd actually really like to test, or hear the results of a test, of one of their cheapo pumps (The Ithaca clone is $79 dealer now!) and see how they actually do perform. Think about it, their SKS's were selling for $79 or so and 99% of them performed like champs so price isn't always indicative of function. I'd had a few Chicom SKS's in the past and a bunch of my family and buddies did also until we moved on to Russian SKS's and European AK's or AR's and FAL's and whatnot. They all performed very well and most were bought during the sub $100 price days.

Still, I think we all more or less know why the prices are so low on them and where the money's going. While the situation isn't quite as some would make out over there there are certainly some serious issues with China. I look at it from three angles though:

1) we're all adults and can make the moral decision as to who we buy from on our own.

2) There are some cicumstances where I'd still consider recommending a ChiCom gun. I know some folks for whom spare cash is mighty hard to come buy. If I was sure that the cheap Chicom shotuns performed as well as their SKS's did, then I might say that's a case of the end justifying the means. I'd rather see someone on a very limited budget with an all steel 5 shot pump 12 gauge than just about anything else they could get in that $100ish dollar price range like a Lorcin or a Jennings pistol. The good it could contribute here outweighs where the gun came from IMO.

Kinda like Israel using Nazi stamped 98k's after it's formation following WW II. The guns came from a reprehensible source, particularly to the Jews, but the fact was that surplus Nazi weapons were cheap and readily available and the Israeli's put them to good use. Sometimes that end use means more than where the tool came from.

3) Whether the Chinese intended it or not, they've served a useful function by bringing the military rifle into the everyman's life in the US. Many, many folks who'd have never bought an M-1, or M-14 or AR-15 picked up an SKS in their import heyday. It took the military rifle out of the hands of the collector and into the hands of the average American. I've heard the SKS referred to as the new militiamans rifle as it's low cost, large numbers, and ready availability have made them ubiquitous across the country, even in the hands of hunters and casual shooters.

Frankly, I'm quite comfortable with a well armed civilian population . Much like the Israeli's using the tainted 98k's for some good I see all those Chicom SKS's finally doing some good here in the states too. They certainly arent harming anyone here and they make a nice comfortable buffer zone of armed citizens that any force, foreign or domestic, would have to deal with should circumstances ever come to that. Of more immediate gain, it took the "assault rifle" issue beyond the usual "gun nuts" and brought in a much broader group of folks who would now be impacted by by laws like the so-called Assault Weapons bills. The liberals have long tried to divide gunowners between hunters and military collectors by saying they aren't going after hunting rifles or "sporting" arms. That may well be true to their thinking but a hell of a lot of those hunter now own "evil assault weapons" thanks to the Chinese . They now have a bit more reason to see that anti-gunners are in fact after their guns too.

Anywho, now it's time for me to get off mysoapbox! Just something to think about.

In the meantime, I agree wholeheartedly with you, if you can afford it, you're much better off with the American 870, or 500, or, in the case of this post 1897 .

[Horizon_Seeker]

If politics is so important to you and yet you have nothing but to rehash the old rhetoric of the Blue Liners, perhaps it is time to actually stop paying tax cause you know where that is going.

If you have nothing to say about the GUNs themselves other than your politic view which by the way nobody cares or has any effect on the quality of the gun, then please go bitch somewhere else.

sincerely

[Dave McC]

I should probably just keep on ignoring this thread, but I'll have my last say on the matter....

I recall another country the Chinese flooded with nice, cheap SKSs, Viet Nam. We saw 3 there for every AK. Since I may be the only respondent on this thread that has actually read the Communist Manifesto,I'm the only one that may realize the nice bargains we get from the ChiComs are not because they're our friends. Communism not only predicts the downfall of Capitalism, but requires violent efforts on the part of the Communists to speed the downfall.

My guess is, the sale of all those SKSs was intended not only to build up some cash, but to arm any dissident and splinter groups opposed to our Govt. And that part worked, hardly an image on TV of a "Militia" or hate group lacked an SKS or 6 shown.

I wonder how many folks on this thread of differing views than mine are still buying S&W handguns, which may be had, I'm told, at good prices due to the lessened demand. And would anyone like to explain why buying a ChiCom firearm is OK and buying one made in Conn by American workers isn't?

Thanks...

Hey,if it's all right to ignore politics and buy a ChiCom shotgun, it MUST be OK to buy a shiny new S&W,right(Sarcasm Alert)?

It strikes me that some of the folks of opposing views here are acting quite defensive about this. Could it be they recognize that they are willing to sell their birthright for a mess of pottage?

I'm now leaving this thread, and subject here, FOREVER.

Blake David McCracken,

[Al Thompson]

As we have a good cross section of thought on the subject, this post is locked. For more discussion on the subject, please post a new thread in Legal and Political.

Giz