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Old September 4, 2023, 04:10 AM   #101
Hawg
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There's nothing wrong with cast frames, even Ruger uses them. There's nothing wrong with modern MIM parts. They got a bad rep when they first came out but all those issues have long since been corrected. I bought my Rock Island in 2011. It has been the most reliable 1911 I've ever owned. All I've done is change the mag and grips. It runs anything I feed it including empty cases. It's accurate and reliable, it's just not pretty. So if you want to spend 1000.00 or more for pretty and a name go for it. If you don't think a Rock Island will shoot watch this video of Hickok45 comparing an Ed Brown Special Forces to a Rock island tactical.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W7sb9Zp-8o
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Old September 4, 2023, 04:54 PM   #102
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If you like them that’s what matters. I only buy high end pistols, so I’m not one to ask. Not a fan of the Turkish pistols I’ve handled. All they do is produce clones with darn near slave labor. I’ll pass.
But what determines "High End"?

Is it the function, the materials, hand labor, precision, reliability?

As I said above, the four Tisas 1911s I purchased all worked while the Colt Series 80 and Dan Wesson Pointman/Patriot while pretty were unreliable.

And the idea that Tisas uses slave labor is quite simply laughable.
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Old September 4, 2023, 06:14 PM   #103
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But what determines "High end? Is it the function, the materials, hand labor, precision, reliability?

As I said above, the four Tisas 1911s I purchased all worked while the Colt Series 80 and Dan Wesson Pointman/Patriot while pretty were unreliable.

And the idea that Tisas uses slave labor is quite simply laughable.
Colt is generally a low end 1911. Not quite sure what the point of constant comparison is. TISAS is entry level, meaning among the cheapest 1911s money can buy.

Again, if you like them, that’s what matters. Not quite sure what the point of four of them is, but I’m a quality over quantity guy, who’s fortunate enough to have both.

What’s high end? Wilson Combat, Les Baer, Nighthawk, Guncrafter, Ed Brown, Cabot, ACW, and several others. The high end 1911’s are generally $2500 and way up from there. Superior parts quality, hand fitting and/or precision machining, extreme attention to detail, nicely finished, etc, etc
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Old September 4, 2023, 06:51 PM   #104
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Colt is generally a low end 1911. Not quite sure what the point of constant comparison is. TISAS is entry level, meaning among the cheapest 1911s money can buy.

Again, if you like them, that’s what matters. Not quite sure what the point of four of them is, but I’m a quality over quantity guy, who’s fortunate enough to have both.

What’s high end? Wilson Combat, Les Baer, Nighthawk, Guncrafter, Ed Brown, Cabot, ACW, and several others. The high end 1911’s are generally $2500 and way up from there. Superior parts quality, hand fitting and/or precision machining, extreme attention to detail, nicely finished, etc, etc
What parts are superior? You know Tisas also offers hand fitted models?

One of the marvelous features of the 1911 was that pieces parts from one maker could be put into a 1911 from a different maker and still function. The design was not mean to be some showcase doll but rather a tool.

I understand the enjoyment of a hand crafted product and own quite a few fountain pens that were more expensive and took greater hand labor than goes into a Wilson Combat, Les Baer, Nighthawk, Guncrafter, Ed Brown, Cabot or ACW 1911. They are enjoyable and in fact as functional as mass produced fountain pens. And as I said, they did cost a whole bunch more than my mass produced fountain pens.

But my experience with "High End" 1911s has been listening to friends tales of their "High End" 1911s and finding they really don't shoot any better in my hands than my Tisas. Four 1911s can hardly be called quantity, and in fact the differences between the four versions satisfy four different experiences.

One is an example that is very close to what followed my dad home from his four year all expenses paid tour of North Africa, Italy, the Mediterranean Sea and the Middle East. It's complete with the post WWI era sights. A second is similar but just slightly smaller and slightly easier to carry (and I do carry my firearms, every single day). But my eyes are also Operation Torch Mk 1 version 1 eyes and so I also have two 1911s with better sights, one full size and one Commander.

But with well over a thousand rounds through each of them I still have not had anything break, anything that needed tuning or adjusting on the pistols (did have to change out the followers on a couple Wilson Combat magazines) and I can be sure the pistols will function if needed.

So I have some 1911s that have superior parts quality, haven't needed hand fitting, do have precision machining and attention to detail and are nicely finished. And I'll carry them in good holsters and enjoy their functionality.
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Old September 4, 2023, 07:29 PM   #105
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I'm not knocking the high end 1911's but Rock Island and Tisas are the best bang for the buck. The prettiness and hand fitted parts don't make them work any better.
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Old September 4, 2023, 08:58 PM   #106
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I'm not knocking the high end 1911's but Rock Island and Tisas are the best bang for the buck. The prettiness and hand fitted parts don't make them work any better.
Lol

If you think the high end 1911’s don’t shoot better than the least expensive 1911’s, I’d say you have a hell of a lot to learn. I’ve owned a lot of cheap 1911’s in years past and can speak from experience. The smoothness, the trigger, the accuracy, etc is on a completely different level.

As far as reliability goes, the cheap 1911’s generally work well these days. Durability over time isn’t going to compare though.

If you guys enjoy these guns, more power to you. They don’t do anything for me, but I’ve been in the high end handgun business for decades now. Thinking they are just as good or comparable is generally a sign of ignorance on how these machines are built.
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Old September 4, 2023, 10:48 PM   #107
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Lol

If you think the high end 1911’s don’t shoot better than the least expensive 1911’s, I’d say you have a hell of a lot to learn. I’ve owned a lot of cheap 1911’s in years past and can speak from experience. The smoothness, the trigger, the accuracy, etc is on a completely different level.

As far as reliability goes, the cheap 1911’s generally work well these days. Durability over time isn’t going to compare though.

If you guys enjoy these guns, more power to you. They don’t do anything for me, but I’ve been in the high end handgun business for decades now. Thinking they are just as good or comparable is generally a sign of ignorance on how these machines are built.
While it's true I've never had a high end 1911 I have shot a few and just shooting off hand I don't shoot them any better. I've had three Colt's including a Gold Cup and they weren't in the same league as my Rock Island. I've had my Rock since 2011 and it is way above and beyond any of the Colt's. I am not ignorant. I know how they're built. My Rock may not be as accurate but it would take a bench to show it and it is every bit as reliable as a high end gun and the trigger isn't bad. I have not had one failure of any kind with it since I got rid of the factory mag and that was in 2011.
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Old September 5, 2023, 10:32 AM   #108
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it occurs to me that the original concept of a 1911 was to replace a peacemaker. at what point have we surpassed that and to what end? hmm.

accuracy? function with newer developments in bullets? longevity?
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Old September 5, 2023, 10:44 AM   #109
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First, you would enjoy the extended beaver tail, skeletonized trigger, type models. They are a better value- given those parts and the small increase in price. Rock Island calls theirs the Rock Standard model. We're talking 549.99 and an excellent value!
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Old September 5, 2023, 12:24 PM   #110
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One important thing

I rather enjoy breaking clay targets. Trap especially. What is really important?
Why breaking 25 targets of 25 targets, every single time you step up to the line. The gentleman's name escapes me at the moment, he held the longest run record for many years in trap.
My point being, he did so while standing on his mountain of spent hulls. Most of us can't break 25 straight with both feet on terra firma, so there is that. Something about arrows and native Americans...
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Old September 5, 2023, 07:45 PM   #111
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it occurs to me that the original concept of a 1911 was to replace a peacemaker.
No, it was to replace the gun that replaced the Peacemaker, the 1889/ 1892 Colt DA revolver in .38 Long Colt caliber.

While liked by some, the gun (and particularly the cartridge) got a reputation for being a poor stopper during the Philippine insurrection, to the point where the Army had a number of Peacemakers refurbished and issued to supplement the .38s.

The Colt revolver was officially replaced by the 1911 and its .45 caliber round, which, incidentally. duplicates the bullet size, weight, and speed of the .45 Govt round (aka .45 Schoefield) which the Army had experience with, and confidence in.
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Old September 5, 2023, 07:53 PM   #112
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No, it was to replace the gun that replaced the Peacemaker, the 1889/ 1892 Colt DA revolver in .38 Long Colt caliber.

While liked by some, the gun (and particularly the cartridge) got a reputation for being a poor stopper during the Philippine insurrection, to the point where the Army had a number of Peacemakers refurbished and issued to supplement the .38s.

The Colt revolver was officially replaced by the 1911 and its .45 caliber round, which, incidentally. duplicates the bullet size, weight, and speed of the .45 Govt round (aka .45 Schoefield) which the Army had experience with, and confidence in.
And the larger bore revolvers, Colt New Service and Smith 1917s soon followed.
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Old September 5, 2023, 08:31 PM   #113
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First, you would enjoy the extended beaver tail, skeletonized trigger, type models. They are a better value- given those parts and the small increase in price. Rock Island calls theirs the Rock Standard model. We're talking 549.99 and an excellent value!
When I got mine that was the A1 FS Tactical model.
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Old September 5, 2023, 08:32 PM   #114
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The New Service version of 1909 was a stopgap until a satisfactory automatic could be produced.
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Old September 6, 2023, 10:55 AM   #115
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Springfield armory

Took me a year to purchase the 1911 from SA. Model i chose was the thier Oporator Model. Goverment style frame\ chambered in 45acp. It was in used condition, overall excellent. Two eight round magazines included with the gun. Bought 100 rounds of 230 grain Winchester white box to test it. Absolutly no problems at the range. The trigger is superb. Accuracy is outstanding. I would have no hesitation recommending thier 1911 models. Hard to find , there not cheap...but worth it. 12-34hom
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Old September 7, 2023, 08:17 AM   #116
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What parts are superior? You know Tisas also offers hand fitted models?

One of the marvelous features of the 1911 was that pieces parts from one maker could be put into a 1911 from a different maker and still function. The design was not mean to be some showcase doll but rather a tool.

I understand the enjoyment of a hand crafted product and own quite a few fountain pens that were more expensive and took greater hand labor than goes into a Wilson Combat, Les Baer, Nighthawk, Guncrafter, Ed Brown, Cabot or ACW 1911. They are enjoyable and in fact as functional as mass produced fountain pens. And as I said, they did cost a whole bunch more than my mass produced fountain pens.

But my experience with "High End" 1911s has been listening to friends tales of their "High End" 1911s and finding they really don't shoot any better in my hands than my Tisas. Four 1911s can hardly be called quantity, and in fact the differences between the four versions satisfy four different experiences.

One is an example that is very close to what followed my dad home from his four year all expenses paid tour of North Africa, Italy, the Mediterranean Sea and the Middle East. It's complete with the post WWI era sights. A second is similar but just slightly smaller and slightly easier to carry (and I do carry my firearms, every single day). But my eyes are also Operation Torch Mk 1 version 1 eyes and so I also have two 1911s with better sights, one full size and one Commander.

But with well over a thousand rounds through each of them I still have not had anything break, anything that needed tuning or adjusting on the pistols (did have to change out the followers on a couple Wilson Combat magazines) and I can be sure the pistols will function if needed.

So I have some 1911s that have superior parts quality, haven't needed hand fitting, do have precision machining and attention to detail and are nicely finished. And I'll carry them in good holsters and enjoy their functionality.
Was in a few shops yesterday and made a point to check out some TISAS 1911’s again, thinking I might have missed some magic the last time I did. Judging by the way some people gush over them, I thought for sure I did.

I handled three of them. Two were used and one new. I’m just not seeing it. They feel like entry level 1911’s in every way. The trigger the finish, the loose fitting, the thumb safety, etc. Granted the used models were both under $350, so I’m not saying they’re a poor value or anything, but to think you’re getting the full modern 1911 experience with these things is absolutely absurd. The used models were the basic no frills models. The new model was enhanced and in the $600 range.

Like I said, if they do it for you, that’s what matters. If in fact there are no MIM parts, that puts them a little above RIA. Just remember, no MIM parts doesn’t mean tool steel parts with high durability either.

To me, they are a solid option in the entry level 1911 market. Try as I might, I can’t see them as anything more than that. Two completely different worlds between those and the high end 1911 segment, which is understandable and as it should be.
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Old September 7, 2023, 08:31 AM   #117
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The top of the line is the Tisas Match, list $1049.99, $250 more than their next most expensive model, the 10mm. (Not counting the dressed up Texas gun.) So what do you get:

With our line of 1911’s being well known for excellent accuracy out of the box in standard trim, we had customers requesting a more target style offering, with more refinements from the factory. We have responded with the 1911 Match in .45ACP, built around a match grade barrel, hand-fitted parts, and detailed machining to enhance the performance of the pistol giving you the edge at your next match.

Strangely, I have not heard of anybody buying one of these, the large majority of sales are the cheap "Imitation Army Surplus" and a few of the $500 guns.
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Old September 7, 2023, 10:16 AM   #118
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check and see how many High Masters on the Bullseye/Precision
Pistol shoots are using Tisas etc. BE is a different game and requires different pistols.
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Old September 7, 2023, 01:42 PM   #119
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No, I wouldn't take the Tisas Match to the 50 yard line.
Its "features" would suit it to IDPA CDP or USPSA SS.

Last edited by Jim Watson; September 7, 2023 at 03:21 PM.
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Old September 7, 2023, 02:38 PM   #120
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I haven't bought one and I'm very unlikely to buy one.

Both the intended use of the Match Grade Tisas or Bullseye/Precision competition are of little or no interest to me these days. Nor are either of those activities related to the design intent of the 1911.

In addition, no one here has said that they believe the average Tisas is the appropriate tool for IDPA CDP or USPSA SS or High Master Bullseye.

What has been challenged are statements such as "That Turkish crap" or "All they do is produce clones with darn near slave labor." which are quite frankly both juvenile and untrue assertions more often indicating that the speaker is experiencing Chūnibyō.
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Old September 8, 2023, 11:46 AM   #121
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The top of the line is the Tisas Match, list $1049.99, $250 more than their next most expensive model, the 10mm. (Not counting the dressed up Texas gun.) So what do you get:

With our line of 1911’s being well known for excellent accuracy out of the box in standard trim, we had customers requesting a more target style offering, with more refinements from the factory. We have responded with the 1911 Match in .45ACP, built around a match grade barrel, hand-fitted parts, and detailed machining to enhance the performance of the pistol giving you the edge at your next match.

Strangely, I have not heard of anybody buying one of these, the large majority of sales are the cheap "Imitation Army Surplus" and a few of the $500 guns.
Yeah no way Jim. I’m way, way out on that. I wouldn’t mind checking one out for curiosities sake.
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Old September 9, 2023, 09:02 AM   #122
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What has been challenged are statements such as "That Turkish crap" or "All they do is produce clones with darn near slave labor." which are quite frankly both juvenile and untrue assertions more often indicating that the speaker is experiencing Chūnibyō.
“Crap” would be a relative term in this case. Since I spoil myself with the 1911’s I buy, the TISAS feel like relative crap to me and they’re built with cheap labor, so the statements are not “untrue” in my viewpoint.

Sorry you took exception to it.

Not saying they’re bad guns for the money. They just aren’t something I’d spend money on.
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Old September 9, 2023, 10:42 AM   #123
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1911 45 auto

I have had a Wilson and now I have a Staccato. If I wanted I have the disposable income to buy an Atlas or similar. Tisas pistols don’t feel like “crap” to me, even if they are made of objectively cheaper materials with less costly labor.

It would be nice if people could just enjoy what they enjoy without seemingly feeling the need to pass judgement on what others buy. This applies to people buying both cheaper and more expensive pistols.
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Old September 9, 2023, 10:49 AM   #124
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feel like relative crap to me and they’re built with cheap labor
So, if they made the exact same gun, but paid their workers 3x or 5x as much would it feel like a better gun to you??

Cheap labor means what, exactly?? Workers get paid less than US union scale wages??? Consider the fact that cheap labor is not the issue, subpar products come from subpar company standards, no matter what labor costs are.

If you mean unskilled labor, or semi-skilled labor, say that. It doesn't matter if you are making guns or sneakers with some NBA star's name on them, if the product does not meet company quality standards (however high or low they are) the workers get replaced. If things are not made with enough quality to sell then management gets replaced.

IT may BE cheap crap, but automatically assuming it is because of where it is made and who makes it is, I think a poor practice. Now, if your opinion is based on guns you've actually used, or first hand observations, that's a different matter.

Personally, I feel a certain European pistol with a plastic frame is cheap crap. I don't like the look, I don't like the feel, and I don't like the attitude of the maker, they work and are very popular with a lot of people, I think primarily because of the relatively low cost, but that doesn't change the way I feel about them.
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Old September 9, 2023, 10:54 AM   #125
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1911 45 auto

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Granted the used models were both under $350, so I’m not saying they’re a poor value or anything, but to think you’re getting the full modern 1911 experience with these things is absolutely absurd.
On a pistol that was designed over 100 years ago, what defines the “full modern 1911 experience”? If you mean “high end”, as you later state, that’s one thing. There are certainly pistols made with objectively more costly parts and more costly labor, but is that then what defines the “full modern 1911 experience”?

Last edited by TunnelRat; September 9, 2023 at 11:05 AM.
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