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Old May 24, 2018, 06:47 AM   #26
Road_Clam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USSR
The reason, no doubt, is a single word: 2400. 2400 powder is typically used with magnum handguns, and they don't realize that it can be used in moderate quantities in nonmagnum handguns.
Agree 100%. I load with H110 and 2400 in 357, 44 , and 460 mag. You will never blow up a gun using H110 as overcharging the case is almost impossible but you can ABSOLUTELY blow up a gun with overcharging 2400 powder. Guys that load mouse fart loads are especially vulnerable. This is why I have a dedicated LED light that shines directly into my charged casing in my Dillon 650, I load slow and visually verify each charge.
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Old May 28, 2018, 11:19 AM   #27
Buck13
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Originally Posted by Road_Clam View Post
Agree 100%. I load with H110 and 2400 in 357, 44 , and 460 mag. You will never blow up a gun using H110 as overcharging the case is almost impossible but you can ABSOLUTELY blow up a gun with overcharging 2400 powder.
I took him to mean the opposite: that appropriate and correct 2400 charge weights in non-magnum cartridges are so much more than the fast or medium speed powders that are much more commonly used in those cartridges that many people would look at the number and say it was too high, not realizing that it is OK for 2400, because 2400 is not Bullseye or Unique.

For example, Lyman 49 has 9.4 grains 2400 for standard pressure .38 Special and a 158 grain XTP. Unique is 5 grains. Someone who'd never thought to use 2400 in that cartridge might think 9 grains was crazy, but it's not.
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Old May 28, 2018, 11:37 AM   #28
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Exactly. I chose 2400 as it meters quite well and requires a large powder charge compared to Bullseye or HP-38. To me this is advantageous as the larger powder charge is easier to see in the case and easier to detect when weighing finished rounds. I also just like how it performs, even though it does burn dirty.

H110 I can understand with the magnum rounds. I personally wouldn't want to try it in 38 Special. Just my preference.
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Old May 28, 2018, 12:27 PM   #29
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Did you chrono them? How is accuracy?

I was doing something kinda/sorta similar yesterday: loaded and shot some 170 and 180 grain jacketed bullets in .357 with not much over starting charges of 4227. Still enough to come close to the base of the bullet, so max must be heavily compressed.

Average velocity was about 875 FPS. Considering that there is very little room for the powder charge to slop around, I was surprised that the chrono showed quite a large extreme spread. (Like, 100 FPS large!)

Despite that, I shot a couple of good (for me) groups in slow fire. Recoil and blast were mild for .357, but certainly more than a .38 target load, so wouldn't be great for rapid fire. I wanted to know if my revolver liked long bullets, and I guess the answer is "yes." Kinda pricey for plinking ammo, but I don't get to the range that often, so I feel I can't afford to shoot cheap ammo! It's a pity that I have a couple thousand cheap bullets that aren't really worth my time. Should have just bought 600 XTPs.
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Old May 28, 2018, 01:41 PM   #30
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[QUOTE]
H110 I can understand with the magnum rounds. I personally wouldn't want to try it in 38 Special. Just my preference.
[Quote]
There is more to it than preference. H-110 has a narrow window of performance.Its a top performer at,for example,fullpower .44 magnum loads.

The manual notes will say "Do not reduce below listed start load"

I'm thinking H-110 pressures are higher than 38 Spl safe pressures.

I have nearly zero experience with 4227. I know its a good slow handgun powder.I don't think it burns well at lower pressures.

Last edited by HiBC; May 28, 2018 at 01:47 PM.
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Old May 28, 2018, 03:14 PM   #31
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I don't think 4227 burns well at ANY pressure. Even in max loads in .357, I see a little trail of breadcrumbs down the barrel if I peek in before knocking it around too much. But it has a good reputation for accuracy. Despite what my manuals say, in my hands it always seems to lag behind 2400 in velocity.

Like 2400 and, as you say, UNLIKE H110, it seems to be safe to download it considerably without deadly squibs, if you want to burn more money and have a fuller case than a faster powder. Hodgdon has data for it in .38 Special standard pressure and +P. You won't find H110 in either of those listings!
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Old May 28, 2018, 08:01 PM   #32
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Once - in what seems a very long time ago - there was a gun writer named Skeeter Skelton. Wrote for Shooting Times as I recall. In one of his missives he recounted loading a number of rounds and then leaving the setup in place for a couple of weeks or so and then finishing out the rest of the loads. The results he reported was that in the rounds loaded later the powder had degraded. One round would pop and fizzle and the next would wake up folks in the next county. Wolley booger was the term he used. Any thoughts on this?...
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Old May 29, 2018, 06:44 AM   #33
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While I was an avid reader of Shooting Times writer Skeeter Skelton, I don't recall that article. However, I will say, powder doesn't "degrade" in a couple of weeks. Something else was taking place.

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Old May 29, 2018, 07:20 AM   #34
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***************************************************************

Quote:
cecILL wrote:
The case just holds the propellant. It would explode without the cylinder/chamber.
Actually, it would not.

Ignite the primer in an unsupported case and once the pressure inside the case reaches the level to overcome the friction between the bullet and the case wall (which, ignoring some effects of dynamic friction, is the same pressure required to seat the bullet in the first place so you know it's not very high), the bullet would pop out and relieve the pressure.

To get an unsupported case to explode, you have to restrain the bullet's movement when you ignite the primer.

**************************************************************

Had ONE 45 ACP with 3.5 Bullseye go off in the press. No restrictions, no die in that station. Case Blew apart. Left sideways imprint of bullet in ceiling. Just a small dent showing lube grooves. Case looked like a peeled banana.

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Old May 30, 2018, 06:19 AM   #35
cecILL
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Knew there would be a couple comments.

Try this. Stick the bullet in the barrel, unsupported case, and hit the primer.

Did you understand the question the OP was asking?
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Old May 30, 2018, 07:50 AM   #36
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Actually, it would not.

Ignite the primer in an unsupported case and once the pressure inside the case reaches the level to overcome the friction between the bullet and the case wall (which, ignoring some effects of dynamic friction, is the same pressure required to seat the bullet in the first place so you know it's not very high), the bullet would pop out and relieve the pressure.

To get an unsupported case to explode, you have to restrain the bullet's movement when you ignite the primer.
Absolutely wrong ^^^^^^^^^^
I tried seating a high primer on a completed round and it went bang in the press. 7 stitches and $2,000 emergency room visit later so they could remove part of the case the was embedded in my forearm proves your statement wrong
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Old May 30, 2018, 08:12 AM   #37
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Quote:
Absolutely wrong ^^^^^^^^^^
I tried seating a high primer on a completed round and it went bang in the press. 7 stitches and $2,000 emergency room visit later so they could remove part of the case the was embedded in my forearm proves your statement wrong
Reloaders have formed a few bad habits, some have gone to sizing loaded ammo in a body die, There is a chance the powder trickled down through the flash hole and filled the area in front of the primer meaning when the primer was seated there was no room for it.

Bad Habit: There is a chance powder in the case could have trickled down through the flash hole and filled the primer meaning there is no room for the primer to move forward when seating. We had a member blow his thing off the handle of his inertia bullet puller. For the most part the accident was blamed on the use of a shell holder. No one considered the sudden stop of the hammer against the concrete drive could seat the primer and then cause a slam fire. The problem was given a lot of attention because he was pulling bullets in a crowd.

There was no way the shell holder in an inertia puller puller could slide over on top of the primer except on the smallest of cases. When pulling bullets on the smallest of cases use 'o' rings to center the case.

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Old May 30, 2018, 09:14 AM   #38
Jim Watson
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Speer once built a single shot "cylinder" with pizeo pressure transducer for a .357 revolver. So it had all characteristics of the original gun, ignition, chamber, gap, and forcing cone, just for one instrumented shot at a time.
They found that the maximum pressure occurred before the bullet was out of the cylinder.

As shown, catastrophic failure of a revolver will fragment the cylinder and blow out or bend the topstrap. This usually takes a fast-for-slow powder error or a double charge.
Elmer Keith blew up more than one revolver pushing loads with old No 80 powder before 2400 was available. He got them fixed, too. A new cylinder, the frame straightened and a new topstrap welded in, and they were ready to go again.


Lesser pressure excursions will "jug" the chamber, or just bulge the thin spot under the cylinder stop notch. A small bulge will not be obvious except that extraction from that chamber becomes difficult or impossible.

Overloading short of "grenade" level will beat the gun to junk. I know one guy who wore out two S&W M10s with .38 Special +P (In practice and competition, many many more rounds than one poster's demonstration with a few hundred rounds.) and one author wore out a couple of Chief's Specials with full power standard pressure .38s. A friend shot heavy loads in a .45 Ruger until the forcing cone split.
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Old May 30, 2018, 09:26 AM   #39
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Lee Turret press primes on the down stroke. That was the last round I tried to seat a high primer on. Expensive lesson learned. Lucky it was a minor injury thinking about some much worse possibilities
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Old May 30, 2018, 10:04 AM   #40
F. Guffey
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Quote:
Lee Turret press primes on the down stroke. That was the last round I tried to seat a high primer on. Expensive lesson learned. Lucky it was a minor injury thinking about some much worse possibilities
Don P. I agree. I have a few shell holders that do not have holes in the center, they are used for swaging bullets, I can not think of a situation where a reloader would decide to seat primers with a flat shell holder while the case was in a sizing die.

And then there are shell holders with slots and shell holders without slots. My shell holders without slots seem to protect me from myself. If the primer is not seated the case can not be removed from the shell holder. Most of the shell holders without slots are used with cases for auto loading.

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Old May 30, 2018, 02:11 PM   #41
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Powder can be positional sensitive, I am the fan of having my powder stacked against the primer. I do not like having a dusting of powder laying in the bottom of the case with a big gap between the top of the powder and the top of the case.

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Old May 30, 2018, 03:32 PM   #42
Jim Watson
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Right. The only bullet I ever stuck was from too much airspace. (Not counting the dampened factory load.)
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Old June 1, 2018, 02:36 PM   #43
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If you significantly undercharge a round it can stick a bullet in the barrel, the next correctly charged round you fire into the stuck bullet can raise pressure enough to blow up the gun. so an undercharge can be the cause of a gun blowing up. I have seen it happen with .38 special and low pressure wadcutter rounds.
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Old June 1, 2018, 08:39 PM   #44
Jim Watson
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I have seen shots following a stuck bullet to bulge barrels. Blow up the gun with a wadcutter? Not here.
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Old June 3, 2018, 01:08 PM   #45
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One major safety reason rangemasters want slow steady fire is to give you a moment's time between shots to have a chance of realizing a SQUIB round happened and is stuck in the barrel of the weapon - so there's that.

SQUIBS can happen if an oversized bullet is fired and cannot clear the barrel.

It can also happen if a smaller sized round is fired and, as the unsupported case ruptures, the round turns sideways and lodges in the barrel - but this is EXTREMELY rare. But I've picked up severely bulged 9mm cases fired in .40 weapons and the bulge is amazing. - see the attached image.

A SQUIB can happen if the round is extremely undercharged. There are those who say that a primer alone will move a bullet through the barrel but I don't believe them nor will I ever opt to test this theory myself. I never use a powder dropper. I digitally measure each powder load to maintain consistency and for safety. I've never produced a SQUIB round that I know of but know several people who use powder droppers that have on rare occasion. As this will never be worth a finger or an eye to me to risk, I don't use a dropper.

And there is the possibility of squib rounds for those using partial metal jackets or sabot ammo where either the jacket or the outer sabot ring, whatever that may be, get's stuck in the barrel causing the next round to SQUIB. This is exceptionally rare but can and has happened.

And for those doing lead casting - leading can be a problem eventually leading to a squib if you do a LOT of soft lead over time in hot loads and never properly clean your weapons. This is most often a problem for people who read no safety instructions but shot a lot of cast reloads cheaply but rarely harden their alloys. As even these people will fire some FMJ rounds to clear the worst of this leading, this turns out to be extremely rare as well.

Getting back to comments I made in another thread - this sort of discussion is notably missing from the vast majority of reloading manuals and printed product instructions and is typically only discussed in forums such as this or the odd very rare reloading class if you can find one.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 9mm fired in a .40.jpg (85.5 KB, 18 views)
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Old June 10, 2018, 01:13 PM   #46
J.G. Terry
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KB'ed revolvers

The most devastated revolver I ever saw was a old style Blackhawk in 41 Magnum. A case full of Bulleye did it. Top strap and top of cylinder were gone. Receiver was cracked in the sides. I have also seen several S&W revolvers with "blown cylinders". Chamber was swollen enough to make extraction very difficult. Other times a case would split. The first 686 I had seen had a split cylinder from an overload. A commercial reloader was trying to economize with Accurate #2. If you do not think case volume is important try this. Load up magnum loads for your Smith 19 using Keith style 170 gr. SWC (358429). The take the identical load and seat that bullet deep enough to go into a N frame Smith. Shoot that in Bubba's revolver to see the difference. For information on heavy loads try "Six Guns and Loads" by Elmer Kieth. There's bunch of ways to screw up a revolver
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