45 ACP Crimp question

Dr Killdeer · November 7, 2009, 08:34 AM

I decided to load 185 grain Speer Gold Dot bullets using Speer brass. I got my new Lee carbide dies from Midway USA and I also bought the Lee Factory crimp die. I’m relatively new to reloading and I wanted to compare the two crimping methods. I started out by making two dummy rounds to insure they would manually chamber and cycle. One with the standard crimp die and one with the FCD.

I manually cycled each unprimed, unpowdered round from the magazine and they seemed OK. Next, I locked the slide back, inserted the magazine and hit the slide release to allow each one to slam into the chamber. That’s not the way I normally chamber the first round, but I wanted to put them to the test. When I checked the OAL, I discovered the bullets were seated 10 and 12 thousandths deeper into the brass. Not good!

I started gently increasing the crimps in an attempt to keep the bullets from moving when using the slide release method. By time I had a tight enough crimp to stop any bullet movement, I doubt if a maximum charge would dislodge them. Worse yet, each one had a definite deformation or indentation around the crimp. The standard crimp die started to deform the brass while the FCD progressively crushed the bullet.

I’m at a loss! What’s the happy medium here? How much crimp is enough and how much is too much? How will the crimp “dent” affect accuracy, pressure? Or, should there even be a dent to begin with? The 45 is not gentle on ammo, so how tight does the bullet need to be held? This is a problem the books don’t tell you about. Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

Footnote: I chambered the rounds in my Springfield Armory Model V-10 and my Kimber Pro Carry II with the same results.

Edward429451 · November 7, 2009, 09:20 AM

Unfortunately the happy medium is to not use Speer brass is what I found out.

alloy · November 7, 2009, 09:22 AM

After a few days of frustration...when I stopped crimping .45 auto rounds altogether, setback disappeared totally. Bend something over the edge of a table, it will flex back some(loose), as well as rise off the table on the top side(loose)...which sort of equals loose case necks in my uneducated approach to crimping .45 auto.

FlyFish · November 7, 2009, 09:57 AM

Taper crimp (which I assume is what you're talking about) is a bit of a misnomer. It's really not possible to put a firm taper crimp on a cartridge because the brass will spring back but the lead bullet will not. If you try to crimp more, the effect is only worse and ends up with the bullet being deformed and ultimately held more loosely than if you crimped less. It's better to think of a taper crimp as really more of a means of removing the bell from the case mouth, and let the friction between the case and bullet hold the latter in place, which it should do fine if the bullet and expander in your die set are working properly with each other.

Foxbat · November 7, 2009, 10:58 AM

When you install the bullet, will it easily go into the case? It is not supposed to. But there are lots of brass out there, that have walls so thin that the standard bullet will go in with no effort. I had this happen with Remington brass, there may be others too.

If that is the case, do not use that brass.

Cloudpeak · November 7, 2009, 11:14 AM

When I've had a setback problem, I chuck the expander in a drill press and reduce the diameter until I no longer get setback after 6-8 re-chamberings of the dummy rounds.

Alleykat · November 7, 2009, 03:22 PM

There is no expander ball in Lee straightwall handgun dies. Bell just enough to get the bullet started. Taper crimp just enough to remove the bell. When you over-crimp, you lose, not gain, neck tension. If the cases are properly resized, then the only purpose of the crimp will be to remove the bell for proper feeding.

Shoney · November 7, 2009, 04:43 PM

Long ago I learned from target shooters the a slight roll crim of the 45ACP produced better accuracy. Even though the case is supposed to head space off the mouth, the extractor will hold the case tight to the slide and there will be no problems. Before you toss the Speer bras, try roll crimping it.

I no longer own nor use FCD for any pistol cartridge, Many people feel the FCD is a way to correct mistakes in the loading cycle.

Sport45 · November 7, 2009, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Killdeer

I started gently increasing the crimps in an attempt to keep the bullets from moving when using the slide release method.

Were you doing this with new bullets or tring to recrimp the same bullet over and over? If the latter, you probably didn't enough neck tension after pulling and re-seating the bullet and aftre the bullet started to deform you had no neck tension at all. It's neck tension, not crimp that does the lion's share of holding the bullet in place. You should only have to apply enough crimp to remove the belling.

Alleykat · November 7, 2009, 05:59 PM

Before you roll crimp, do a little research on roll crimping. You should never roll crimp, unless you have a cannelure in which to roll the crimp. Don't throw away the brass, just load it correctly.

Shoney · November 7, 2009, 06:08 PM

Alleycat:

Please show the site which documents your statement:

Quote:

You should never roll crimp, unless you have a cannelure in which to roll the crimp.

I have roll crimped thousands of bullets without a cannalur for 45ACP semi-auto handguns. What documentation shows why this is wrong?

confirmed shooter · November 7, 2009, 06:34 PM

I roll-crimp my long colt 45's, but when loading for my 1911, I have found that I get better ammo uniformity when using the tapered crimp. I don't crimp my rifle ammo at all like i am sure most of you don't. Except for 223 for AR, use the factory crimp die on that one to keep the bullets from backing out. It is all a lott of fun. charlie sierra.

Farmland · November 7, 2009, 06:36 PM

I give my 45 that go through my colt 45 a taper crimp. I'm not going to say you can't give these a roll crimp, because honestly I don't know if it would be ok or not.

I do know that most bullets for a 45 revolver will take a roll crimp.

Now from my understanding bullets that have a cannelure should be rolled crimped. Those that do not should have a taper crimp.

There are some sources that state never to roll crimp a 45 ACP.

Taper crimping is the best choice for any firearm which headspaces on the case mouth. Cartridges intended for use in self-loading pistols, such as the .45 ACP, should never be given any type of crimp other than a taper crimp. Because of the method of headspacing on the case mouth, a slight ledge must be left to provide positive positioning of a chambered round.

However like I said I honestly do not know if it is that big of an issue.

Here is my source for never giving a 45ACP a roll crimp.

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/re...sics/crimp.cfm

Farmland · November 7, 2009, 06:41 PM

I should have add that the information about target shooters giving the 45 ACP a roll crimp offered by Shoney may hold some merit. I think that Shoney is more experience than I am and would have some first hand knowledge of some reloading tricks used by different shooters or disciplines.

Thus the word never even in my source might not be correct for every circumstance.

Alleykat · November 7, 2009, 08:01 PM

Shoney:

Quote:

I have roll crimped thousands of bullets without a cannalur for 45ACP semi-auto handguns. What documentation shows why this is wrong?

Don't really care to do your research for you, but just about any reloading manual will contain the information you seek. It's pretty common knowledge that .45ACP that's going to be shot in a semi-auto should have a taper crimp, not a roll crimp. The "headspacing on the extractor" is patently bad information, particularly to be passing along to a possible newbie, who might actually believe that horsehockey.

Just about any reloading manual will also tell you not to roll crimp, unless you're roll crimping into a cannelure. I won't be looking that up for you, either.

Dr Killdeer · November 8, 2009, 10:28 AM

I think the problem is solved. Flyfish suggested an out of spec expander die and Foxbat asked if the bullet goes into the case easily, because it shouldn’t. The answer was Yes, the bullets went in real easy and too deep with just finger pressure. So, I figured the expander die was out of spec.

Unfortunately, the operator was out of spec. It was not the die itself, but the way I set it up. While my attention was focused on the crimping process, that wasn’t the problem at all. Since I have no experience reloading handgun ammo, I didn’t know what to look for. The expander die was screwed down too far and it was opening up the brass way too much. I adjusted it to barely flare the case mouth, just enough to accept the back of the bullet.

Now, I’m getting consistent seating depth and a good strong crimp, without any bullet deformation. The ring around the bullet left by the FCD is so faint you can barely see it. I pulled several bullets using the inertial puller and it took three and four hard blows to dislodge them. I pulled a few factory rounds for comparison and mine are held just as tight. They chamber and cycle without any problems and the bullets are not being pushed back into the cases.

I’m going to load my first live 45 ACP rounds today. It’s like Christmas morning when I was a kid. Many thanks to everyone for your feedback.

Sarge · November 8, 2009, 10:54 AM

Always taper crimp the .45 ACP and do it like you mean it.

You can't determine crimp by outside diameter of the finished round at the case mouth. Neck thickness varies and so does bullet diameter, although cast bullets will invariably be 0.001+ bigger than their jacketed counterparts.

When setting up your crimp die for lead bullets, crank it down until about half the neck thickness is buried in the bullet. Then take a few finished rounds and push them nose-first against your loading bench, like you're trying to move it. Measure with calipers, before and after. A firm crimp will not allow the bullet to move. Not even 0.001".

If the bullet deep seats during the feed cycle, you have wasted inertia and ignored a foundation principle of autopistol design- fixed bullet ammunition of a specific length, within acceptable tolerances. You are also setting yourself up for an over-pressure load.

Glad you got your problem sorted out.

November 7, 2009, 08:34 AM	#1
Dr Killdeer Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2009 Location: Newburgh, NY Posts: 127	45 ACP Crimp question I decided to load 185 grain Speer Gold Dot bullets using Speer brass. I got my new Lee carbide dies from Midway USA and I also bought the Lee Factory crimp die. I’m relatively new to reloading and I wanted to compare the two crimping methods. I started out by making two dummy rounds to insure they would manually chamber and cycle. One with the standard crimp die and one with the FCD. I manually cycled each unprimed, unpowdered round from the magazine and they seemed OK. Next, I locked the slide back, inserted the magazine and hit the slide release to allow each one to slam into the chamber. That’s not the way I normally chamber the first round, but I wanted to put them to the test. When I checked the OAL, I discovered the bullets were seated 10 and 12 thousandths deeper into the brass. Not good! I started gently increasing the crimps in an attempt to keep the bullets from moving when using the slide release method. By time I had a tight enough crimp to stop any bullet movement, I doubt if a maximum charge would dislodge them. Worse yet, each one had a definite deformation or indentation around the crimp. The standard crimp die started to deform the brass while the FCD progressively crushed the bullet. I’m at a loss! What’s the happy medium here? How much crimp is enough and how much is too much? How will the crimp “dent” affect accuracy, pressure? Or, should there even be a dent to begin with? The 45 is not gentle on ammo, so how tight does the bullet need to be held? This is a problem the books don’t tell you about. Any advice will be greatly appreciated. Footnote: I chambered the rounds in my Springfield Armory Model V-10 and my Kimber Pro Carry II with the same results.

November 7, 2009, 11:14 AM	#6
Cloudpeak Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 2005 Location: Wyoming Posts: 288	When I've had a setback problem, I chuck the expander in a drill press and reduce the diameter until I no longer get setback after 6-8 re-chamberings of the dummy rounds. __________________ Cloudpeak

November 7, 2009, 04:43 PM	#8
Shoney Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2002 Location: Transplanted from Montana Posts: 2,311	Long ago I learned from target shooters the a slight roll crim of the 45ACP produced better accuracy. Even though the case is supposed to head space off the mouth, the extractor will hold the case tight to the slide and there will be no problems. Before you toss the Speer bras, try roll crimping it. I no longer own nor use FCD for any pistol cartridge, Many people feel the FCD is a way to correct mistakes in the loading cycle. __________________ I pledge allegiance to the Flag - - -, and to the Republic for which it stands….Our Forefathers were brilliant for giving us a Republic, not a democracy! Do you know the difference??? and WHY?http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissue...les.asp?id=111

November 8, 2009, 10:28 AM	#16
Dr Killdeer Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2009 Location: Newburgh, NY Posts: 127	Operator error! I think the problem is solved. Flyfish suggested an out of spec expander die and Foxbat asked if the bullet goes into the case easily, because it shouldn’t. The answer was Yes, the bullets went in real easy and too deep with just finger pressure. So, I figured the expander die was out of spec. Unfortunately, the operator was out of spec. It was not the die itself, but the way I set it up. While my attention was focused on the crimping process, that wasn’t the problem at all. Since I have no experience reloading handgun ammo, I didn’t know what to look for. The expander die was screwed down too far and it was opening up the brass way too much. I adjusted it to barely flare the case mouth, just enough to accept the back of the bullet. Now, I’m getting consistent seating depth and a good strong crimp, without any bullet deformation. The ring around the bullet left by the FCD is so faint you can barely see it. I pulled several bullets using the inertial puller and it took three and four hard blows to dislodge them. I pulled a few factory rounds for comparison and mine are held just as tight. They chamber and cycle without any problems and the bullets are not being pushed back into the cases. I’m going to load my first live 45 ACP rounds today. It’s like Christmas morning when I was a kid. Many thanks to everyone for your feedback.

November 8, 2009, 10:54 AM	#17
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	Crimping the .45 ACP, general Always taper crimp the .45 ACP and do it like you mean it. You can't determine crimp by outside diameter of the finished round at the case mouth. Neck thickness varies and so does bullet diameter, although cast bullets will invariably be 0.001+ bigger than their jacketed counterparts. When setting up your crimp die for lead bullets, crank it down until about half the neck thickness is buried in the bullet. Then take a few finished rounds and push them nose-first against your loading bench, like you're trying to move it. Measure with calipers, before and after. A firm crimp will not allow the bullet to move. Not even 0.001". If the bullet deep seats during the feed cycle, you have wasted inertia and ignored a foundation principle of autopistol design- fixed bullet ammunition of a specific length, within acceptable tolerances. You are also setting yourself up for an over-pressure load. Glad you got your problem sorted out. __________________ People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.

November 7, 2009, 09:20 AM	#2
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	Unfortunately the happy medium is to not use Speer brass is what I found out.

November 7, 2009, 09:57 AM	#4
FlyFish Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2009 Location: Overlooking the Baker River Valley Posts: 1,723	Taper crimp (which I assume is what you're talking about) is a bit of a misnomer. It's really not possible to put a firm taper crimp on a cartridge because the brass will spring back but the lead bullet will not. If you try to crimp more, the effect is only worse and ends up with the bullet being deformed and ultimately held more loosely than if you crimped less. It's better to think of a taper crimp as really more of a means of removing the bell from the case mouth, and let the friction between the case and bullet hold the latter in place, which it should do fine if the bullet and expander in your die set are working properly with each other.

November 7, 2009, 10:58 AM	#5
Foxbat Senior Member Join Date: January 13, 2008 Posts: 367	When you install the bullet, will it easily go into the case? It is not supposed to. But there are lots of brass out there, that have walls so thin that the standard bullet will go in with no effort. I had this happen with Remington brass, there may be others too. If that is the case, do not use that brass.

November 7, 2009, 03:22 PM	#7
Alleykat Junior member Join Date: July 26, 2007 Posts: 3,668	There is no expander ball in Lee straightwall handgun dies. Bell just enough to get the bullet started. Taper crimp just enough to remove the bell. When you over-crimp, you lose, not gain, neck tension. If the cases are properly resized, then the only purpose of the crimp will be to remove the bell for proper feeding.

November 7, 2009, 05:59 PM	#10
Alleykat Junior member Join Date: July 26, 2007 Posts: 3,668	Before you roll crimp, do a little research on roll crimping. You should never roll crimp, unless you have a cannelure in which to roll the crimp. Don't throw away the brass, just load it correctly.

November 7, 2009, 06:34 PM	#12
confirmed shooter Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2009 Location: reno, Nv. Posts: 109	I roll-crimp my long colt 45's, but when loading for my 1911, I have found that I get better ammo uniformity when using the tapered crimp. I don't crimp my rifle ammo at all like i am sure most of you don't. Except for 223 for AR, use the factory crimp die on that one to keep the bullets from backing out. It is all a lott of fun. charlie sierra.

November 7, 2009, 06:36 PM	#13
Farmland Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2009 Posts: 869	I give my 45 that go through my colt 45 a taper crimp. I'm not going to say you can't give these a roll crimp, because honestly I don't know if it would be ok or not. I do know that most bullets for a 45 revolver will take a roll crimp. Now from my understanding bullets that have a cannelure should be rolled crimped. Those that do not should have a taper crimp. There are some sources that state never to roll crimp a 45 ACP. Taper crimping is the best choice for any firearm which headspaces on the case mouth. Cartridges intended for use in self-loading pistols, such as the .45 ACP, should never be given any type of crimp other than a taper crimp. Because of the method of headspacing on the case mouth, a slight ledge must be left to provide positive positioning of a chambered round. However like I said I honestly do not know if it is that big of an issue. Here is my source for never giving a 45ACP a roll crimp. http://www.exteriorballistics.com/re...sics/crimp.cfm

November 7, 2009, 06:41 PM	#14
Farmland Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2009 Posts: 869	I should have add that the information about target shooters giving the 45 ACP a roll crimp offered by Shoney may hold some merit. I think that Shoney is more experience than I am and would have some first hand knowledge of some reloading tricks used by different shooters or disciplines. Thus the word never even in my source might not be correct for every circumstance.