Truncated Cone in Lever Action

Moloch · December 5, 2022, 04:15 PM

We all know that pointy bullets in a tubular fed gun are a big no-no for obvious reasons. Buuuuut......

I came across a great deal for Fiocchi Truncated .357 Bullets, I think loading those 142 grainers with a near-max load of VV-110 would be really damn cool and should shoot really straight out of my 24'' 92. Also tried a test cartridge and it cycles and loads so smooth you would not believe it.

Now I don't know what to do - would you feel save using those bullets in a tube magazine gun? The Tips are about the size of the primers but the tips are rounded off and smooth and recoil in a 24'' heavy octagon is barely noticeable.

bamaranger · December 5, 2022, 04:23 PM

Ya'know, I think you'd likely be OK. I shot 158 gr LSWC from a variety of sources through my Marlin 1894 and I suspect the point on those projectiles was sometimes about what your slugs appear from your pics. Your slugs seem no more pointed than a wide variety of rifle soft points as used in the 30-30, the .35 Rem and so and have been used for years. The greatest risk is with POINTED soft points, spitzer like, and yours seem a long way from that.

Moloch · December 5, 2022, 04:32 PM

Good point (pun intended), a 30 caliber softpoint should have about the same tip size as the truncated cone bullets I want to use in my .357, and the 30-30 uses large rifle primers so the primers would be even more exposed to the bullet tips than with .357's and their small pistol primers.-

You mentioned the pointy LSWC, you mean this bullet style:

In any case, I'm going to load a couple rounds with primers and bullets only and cycle them through my gun a couple dozen times and see if there are any indentations on the primers.

tangolima · December 5, 2022, 04:48 PM

Deleted

MarkCO · December 5, 2022, 05:05 PM

Quote:

We all know that pointy bullets in a tubular fed gun are a big no-no for obvious reasons.

Yes, but I do think that is a preponderance of caution. And, since almost no-one uses pointy's in tubular magazine firearms, we don't know for sure. I follow the collective caution, while also agreeing that we have yet to know of anyone, with modern cartridges, having an issue and there are in fact folks (more and more) who ignore the caution and use pointy's and have lived to tell about it.

All that said, I don't think there is an issue with the OPs bullet. It takes a good thumb to dent a primer, and more to set them off. If it was me, I'd not use Federal primers, but again, preponderance of caution.

Polinese · December 6, 2022, 12:12 AM

I've shot that same load in my Uberti 1873 without any kabooms

stagpanther · December 6, 2022, 03:41 AM

I'd cut one of the bullets in half and see what the tip is like.

**44 AMP** · December 6, 2022, 04:48 PM

I would be very surprised if you had one of those bullets set off a primer, particularly in a .357 magnum rifle.

I would be slightly concerned about the fact that they are FMJ and so the tips are as hard as the rest of the bullet, but the size and shape in comparison to the primer works against having an accident.

While I wouldn't recommend it, you can crush a primer nearly flat without setting it off, IF the force is applied smoothly and evenly across the whole face of the primer,

IT is the sudden, crush of the primer pellet (in the center of the primer) that sets it off.

Bullets with narrow, (pointed) HARD tips can replicate the firing pin and so are dangerous in the usual tube magazine. Remember that it is not ONLY recoil that slams primers into bullets in the tube mag, it is also the feed cycle.

A bullet tip the size of the primer, flat or rounded rarely is an issue. A spitzer type tip if made of a hard material (bullet jacket, etc) CAN BE.

Note the recent pointed plastic (polymer) tips used on some slugs. Gives the aerodynamic advantage of the spitzer tip, but is soft and won't set off a primer...

Other than you have them, what's the point of shooting FMJ from a .357 Mag rifle, anyway??

Moloch · December 7, 2022, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Other than you have them, what's the point of shooting FMJ from a .357 Mag rifle, anyway??

Science of course!

Just kidding, what I like about them is they cycle and load wonderfully smoothly through my lever action, better than any other projectile I've ever tried. Plus it is also a spitzer-ish type of bullet at a perfect weight and if it proves accurate through my gun I think it would be fun to try to get it out to 150 and 200 with a blisteringly hot load of VV N110.-

And besides that, I think if I stuff them into 38SPC cases I got a super slick load for competitions manual rifles open sights division.
I got the slickest bullets in town!

Scorch · December 10, 2022, 05:54 PM

Magazine detonation with pointed bullets happens because the ammo moves forward in the magazine under recoil then is pushed back down on the ammo behind it. I'm not sure I would worry about recoil induced detonation in anything other than a very lightweight rifle or a harder kicking cartridge like 30-30 or larger. In any event, if the meplat of the bullet is larger than the primer, you have nothing to worry about. If the meplat is smaller than the primer diameter, you should be leery of doing it. Figure out how much difference there is between nose profile of the bullets you are looking at and the supposedly safe round nosed ammo and judge accordingly.

**44 AMP** · December 10, 2022, 08:15 PM

Besides the column of ammo shifting back and forth under recoil, there is also the "sudden stop" when a round is released onto the carrier (lifter) of the ammo in the tube. Literally a round's length of movement driven by the magazine tube spring then a sudden stop. This can be more and at a higher velocity that the rounds in the tube shifting under recoil.

The only "tube detonation" I've read about was decades ago and involved too pointed bullets in a .348 Winchester. If remember correctly it might have been more than just one round and the shooter lost fingers. The .348 has significantly more recoil than .30-30 class rounds.

I think there, it was the recoil more than anything else besides using the really wrong bullet.

One thing I've always found interesting is the old Remington pumps 14 and 141 which had tube magazines but could safely use pointed bullets.
I'm sure Rem's patent on that is long gone, but no one has seemed to bother to do it, since.

Moloch · December 12, 2022, 12:45 PM

So what I did was load 5 rounds just with primers only and I cycled them about 5 or 6 times. The primers still looked pristine so I think I'm good to go. 357 recoil is barely noticeable so I don't think that is going to be significant factor.

So I loaded a couple for some accuracy testing. Had some nickel coated Magtech brass lying around so I used those cases.
I think they look really pretty.

**44 AMP** · December 12, 2022, 01:27 PM

Non-destructive testing never hurts anything.

Flat tip, about the size of the primer (no small point to poke in) light recoil from .357 mag, I doubt you will have any problems in a tube magazine rifle with those bullets in that caliber.

Ibmikey · December 20, 2022, 11:43 PM

Many thousands of TC bullets went down the barrels of my levers in my years of Cowboy Shooting, most were original Winchesters.

Drm50 · December 21, 2022, 04:40 PM

They will be ok. Width of flat nose will not detonate a primer. To start with chain reaction is something that can happen, no sure fire. In tube mags in pistol calibers I only remember seeing one case. It happened in a original Ruger 44 carbine. Late 60s early 70s. There was outfit selling AP ammo for revolvers. Bullet was shaped like a center punch. They came 6 on a card ( this may have been manf samples ) expensive too. Anyway say pic of Ruger laying on blanket after blowing mag tube.

44caliberkid · December 23, 2022, 12:57 PM

A couple weeks ago I took out my 94 in 30-30. I shot a number of factory loads from Winchester and Remington. All had round nose bullets with a much smaller (pointier) tip than your truncated bullets and I didn’t blow up. I think you’re fine.

December 5, 2022, 04:15 PM	#1
Moloch Senior Member Join Date: November 27, 2005 Posts: 1,419	Truncated Cone in Lever Action We all know that pointy bullets in a tubular fed gun are a big no-no for obvious reasons. Buuuuut...... I came across a great deal for Fiocchi Truncated .357 Bullets, I think loading those 142 grainers with a near-max load of VV-110 would be really damn cool and should shoot really straight out of my 24'' 92. Also tried a test cartridge and it cycles and loads so smooth you would not believe it. Now I don't know what to do - would you feel save using those bullets in a tube magazine gun? The Tips are about the size of the primers but the tips are rounded off and smooth and recoil in a 24'' heavy octagon is barely noticeable.

December 5, 2022, 04:23 PM	#2
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,303	Hmmmmm? Ya'know, I think you'd likely be OK. I shot 158 gr LSWC from a variety of sources through my Marlin 1894 and I suspect the point on those projectiles was sometimes about what your slugs appear from your pics. Your slugs seem no more pointed than a wide variety of rifle soft points as used in the 30-30, the .35 Rem and so and have been used for years. The greatest risk is with POINTED soft points, spitzer like, and yours seem a long way from that.

December 5, 2022, 04:32 PM	#3
Moloch Senior Member Join Date: November 27, 2005 Posts: 1,419	Good point (pun intended), a 30 caliber softpoint should have about the same tip size as the truncated cone bullets I want to use in my .357, and the 30-30 uses large rifle primers so the primers would be even more exposed to the bullet tips than with .357's and their small pistol primers.- You mentioned the pointy LSWC, you mean this bullet style: In any case, I'm going to load a couple rounds with primers and bullets only and cycle them through my gun a couple dozen times and see if there are any indentations on the primers. Last edited by Moloch; December 5, 2022 at 04:42 PM.

December 6, 2022, 03:41 AM	#7
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,775	I'd cut one of the bullets in half and see what the tip is like. __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

December 6, 2022, 04:48 PM	#8
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,820	I would be very surprised if you had one of those bullets set off a primer, particularly in a .357 magnum rifle. I would be slightly concerned about the fact that they are FMJ and so the tips are as hard as the rest of the bullet, but the size and shape in comparison to the primer works against having an accident. While I wouldn't recommend it, you can crush a primer nearly flat without setting it off, IF the force is applied smoothly and evenly across the whole face of the primer, IT is the sudden, crush of the primer pellet (in the center of the primer) that sets it off. Bullets with narrow, (pointed) HARD tips can replicate the firing pin and so are dangerous in the usual tube magazine. Remember that it is not ONLY recoil that slams primers into bullets in the tube mag, it is also the feed cycle. A bullet tip the size of the primer, flat or rounded rarely is an issue. A spitzer type tip if made of a hard material (bullet jacket, etc) CAN BE. Note the recent pointed plastic (polymer) tips used on some slugs. Gives the aerodynamic advantage of the spitzer tip, but is soft and won't set off a primer... Other than you have them, what's the point of shooting FMJ from a .357 Mag rifle, anyway?? __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

December 5, 2022, 04:48 PM	#4
tangolima Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2013 Posts: 3,816	Deleted

December 6, 2022, 12:12 AM	#6
Polinese Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2010 Posts: 947	I've shot that same load in my Uberti 1873 without any kabooms

December 10, 2022, 05:54 PM	#10
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	Magazine detonation with pointed bullets happens because the ammo moves forward in the magazine under recoil then is pushed back down on the ammo behind it. I'm not sure I would worry about recoil induced detonation in anything other than a very lightweight rifle or a harder kicking cartridge like 30-30 or larger. In any event, if the meplat of the bullet is larger than the primer, you have nothing to worry about. If the meplat is smaller than the primer diameter, you should be leery of doing it. Figure out how much difference there is between nose profile of the bullets you are looking at and the supposedly safe round nosed ammo and judge accordingly. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

December 10, 2022, 08:15 PM	#11
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,820	Besides the column of ammo shifting back and forth under recoil, there is also the "sudden stop" when a round is released onto the carrier (lifter) of the ammo in the tube. Literally a round's length of movement driven by the magazine tube spring then a sudden stop. This can be more and at a higher velocity that the rounds in the tube shifting under recoil. The only "tube detonation" I've read about was decades ago and involved too pointed bullets in a .348 Winchester. If remember correctly it might have been more than just one round and the shooter lost fingers. The .348 has significantly more recoil than .30-30 class rounds. I think there, it was the recoil more than anything else besides using the really wrong bullet. One thing I've always found interesting is the old Remington pumps 14 and 141 which had tube magazines but could safely use pointed bullets. I'm sure Rem's patent on that is long gone, but no one has seemed to bother to do it, since. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

December 12, 2022, 12:45 PM	#12
Moloch Senior Member Join Date: November 27, 2005 Posts: 1,419	So what I did was load 5 rounds just with primers only and I cycled them about 5 or 6 times. The primers still looked pristine so I think I'm good to go. 357 recoil is barely noticeable so I don't think that is going to be significant factor. So I loaded a couple for some accuracy testing. Had some nickel coated Magtech brass lying around so I used those cases. I think they look really pretty.

December 12, 2022, 01:27 PM	#13
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,820	Non-destructive testing never hurts anything. Flat tip, about the size of the primer (no small point to poke in) light recoil from .357 mag, I doubt you will have any problems in a tube magazine rifle with those bullets in that caliber. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

December 20, 2022, 11:43 PM	#14
Ibmikey Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 2013 Location: Now relocated to Texas Posts: 2,943	Many thousands of TC bullets went down the barrels of my levers in my years of Cowboy Shooting, most were original Winchesters.

December 21, 2022, 04:40 PM	#15
Drm50 Senior Member Join Date: November 10, 2014 Posts: 1,378	They will be ok. Width of flat nose will not detonate a primer. To start with chain reaction is something that can happen, no sure fire. In tube mags in pistol calibers I only remember seeing one case. It happened in a original Ruger 44 carbine. Late 60s early 70s. There was outfit selling AP ammo for revolvers. Bullet was shaped like a center punch. They came 6 on a card ( this may have been manf samples ) expensive too. Anyway say pic of Ruger laying on blanket after blowing mag tube.

December 23, 2022, 12:57 PM	#16
44caliberkid Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2017 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,099	A couple weeks ago I took out my 94 in 30-30. I shot a number of factory loads from Winchester and Remington. All had round nose bullets with a much smaller (pointier) tip than your truncated bullets and I didn’t blow up. I think you’re fine.