The bullseye glory days are fading

[HighValleyRanch]

A fellow emailed me regarding a statement I made in the USRA thread about a nice old range in Sacremento we used to shoot at.
I responded:
"it was the Sacremento Mangan Pistol range located in Mangan park that hosted many, many sanction bullseye matches in the old days.
I believe it's closed down now, unfortunately. All of the old haunts are now closed that we used to shoot at:
Coyote Point, Presidio Gun Club in San Francisaco, Chabot, Sharp Park, Mangan Pistol Range, these are all gone.
The glory days of bullseye has long past in the Bay Area.
At the end we were shooting at the San Francisco Police range hosting some memorial shoots for the late Bob Chow.
The range is still open, but politics now got in the way of any further shoots to the non law enforcement.
The only clubs still shooting are one in Palo Alto and my old club, the Sebastopol Rifle and Pistol club still hosts the sanction NRA matches and regionals."

I am sure that the fall of these ranges was as much due to politics in California as much as falling attendence.

This made me think that indeed, all the old times I spent shooting bullseye at competitions are long gone. There's only a few sanctioned matches a year now held locally. During the heydays, we were shooting matches just about every weekend during the 1980's.

I believe the run and gun type matches have won out over the old precision school matches. I know many still shoot bullseye gallery type matches at local clubs, but I am curious as to how many people here still shoot
SANCTIONED NRA MATCHES? whether NRA precision pistol or International standard, air pistol, Internation Centerfire or Free pistol matches.
If you are still shooting any of these matches (not just local informal club matches) please post and let me know. It will boost my spirits.

Especially if you are still shooting one handed with iron or dot.
I think that the NRA allowing two handed for beginners was a mistake. The reason was to induce more shooters to attend, but changing the old rules changed the game.

[Nathan]

Seems like this is the problem with today’s NRA. Too many politics and not enough shooting.

[T. O'Heir]

Shooting a .22 target pistol is too difficult for a lot of new shooters. They don't want to take the time it requires to be good at it. Not to mention the money it takes to buy a proper target pistol. Plus the politicians are busy closing ranges and clubs.

[dgludwig]

I think that the NRA allowing two handed for beginners was a mistake. The reason was to induce more shooters to attend, but changing the old rules changed the game.

Such a shame but I see the sport of Bullseye being eclipsed by targets that fall over and make a noise when hit. "Paper punching" is too boring for many shooters brought up in the era of video games and "tactical" shooting endeavors. At the age of 75, I still compete in Bullseye matches using iron sights and holding the handgun with one hand-whenever I can find a place to do so.
Bullseye is the perfect venue for teaching fledgling shooters the basics of marksmanship with a pistol. For those that complain that it's too difficult to shoot good scores while holding a pistol with one hand as you chase the X-ring at fifty yards as the wind plots against your success, it should be pointed out that Bullseye shooting was never meant to be easy...

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by dgludwig

Such a shame but I see the sport of Bullseye being eclipsed by targets that fall over and make a noise when hit. "Paper punching" is too boring for many shooters brought up in the era of video games and "tactical" shooting endeavors. At the age of 75, I still compete in Bullseye matches using iron sights and holding the handgun with one hand-whenever I can find a place to do so.
Bullseye is the perfect venue for teaching fledgling shooters the basics of marksmanship with a pistol. For those that complain that it's too difficult to shoot good scores while holding a pistol with one hand as you chase the X-ring at fifty yards as the wind plots against your success, it should be pointed out that Bullseye shooting was never meant to be easy...

Gee, with attitudes like this I can't understand why so many new shooters aren't clamoring to get in line to do bullseye shooting only to have to listen to people disparage them for having the audacity to like other things.

At my range we have people with different interests. Every time a group of people interested in starting an action shooting group gets traction the fuds come in to shut them down. Because those same shooters are stealing their time slots? No, they deliberately choose other times. Because they're destroying the range? Actually they've added more utility to the range and brought in more income too. Because they're being unsafe? We have many more people trained as RSOs now. It's because they don't like it, they didn't do it, or they see people choosing to do it as rejecting bullseye shooting and what they like.

One day I might find a range where its members just let each other enjoy shooting in their chosen way, but my experience so far has made me think that isn't likely. Bullseye can survive, and frankly has applications for action shooters too. But the disdain some participants show for others is absolutely a turn off for many. It's a shame because many of those same bullseye shooters have a lot of great knowledge, but this attitude means that many people won't interact with those shooters and all that knowledge will die with them.

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[JohnKSa]

I was, at one point, very interested in bullseye shooting and actually attended several local matches.

Being the person I am, I read the official rulebook before I showed up and made sure I knew the rules and that my equipment (though non-mainstream) was fully in compliance. In spite of that, I got enough negative feedback that it sort of took the shine off the activity for me and I quit going to the matches.

The rest of the shooters were older than I was and I got the impression that they weren't all that keen on adding new members to their clique. It's really the only negative experience I can recall from a shooting competition.

Anyway, I think it's sad that bullseye is fading away, and also sad that I didn't find another set of matches in the area with a different group of shooters. But at the same time, I have this lingering feeling that maybe that clique that made me unwelcome wasn't all that unique and that maybe part of why bullseye is where it is today has something to do with that.

[Aguila Blanca]

The small indoor range where I shoot has mini "combat" shoot competitions once a week. I tried to get the owner to offer bullseye competitions on another night every week, or even once a month, but he wasn't interested enough to even try it to see if anyone turned up. At the moment, I only know one person who shoots bullseye ... and he lives a thousand miles away from where I am.

[David R]

Run and Gun = Immediate satisfaction.

Its a hit or not. That is all that matters.

Both games are difficult, I have been a bullseye shooter since 1987. I remember when "My battery died" was not an acceptable alabi.

A few years ago I was shooting an outdoor match. I looked around and I was the only one with Irons on the line of 30 shooters. I enjoy the match. I got my girlfriend shooting with two hands. We don't count her score, but she enjoys it and is always trying to improve. My daughter shoots too. We shoot both rimfire and center fire. Indoors in the winter and outdoors in the summer.

I guess I am one of the old guys @ 58, she is 61.

We also shoot Silhouette with rimfire rifle and both RF and CF handgun. This sport is also fading away.

My daughter and I shoot a weekly bowling pin match. They are steel pins, so a hit is all it takes. Now and then we will shoot one handed. Bullseye skills really shine there. Most can shoot one handed, but not near as well as we can.

I guess what is in the area is what I will shoot.

The three of us also shoot sporter rifle in the winter. Another "slow" game. 10 rounds in 10 minutes for 3 targets.

I used to shoot a 200 yard offhand rifle match once a week. Any caliber, any sight. Then it turned into 100 yard and 200 yard. Now its only 100 yards offhand.

My son showed up to that match on Saturday morning. He was not a member of the club, so He sat in his car because I was not there yet. The president of the club went up to him and said" What the hell are you doing here?" My son said he came to shoot the match.

We need all the young shooters we can get to continue this sport.

I find Bullseye and Sporter Rifle to be totally relaxing.

Thanks
David

[Old Stony]

I shot different matches in the Bay Area for years, and watched the ranges fade away. The silhouette matches at Concord, Stockton, Fremont, etc...as far as I know are all gone. We used to shoot matches at Chabot as well, including a hunter rifle competition where you shot 200 meter chickens with your hunting rifles.

I shot muzzleloading matches at Twin Sisters near Fairfield...and it's been shut down too now.

Kalifornia might just as well be written off the maps as far as any shooting goes. If it is still happening at any range, it's just a matter of time where someone will find a reason to shut them down.

[HighValleyRanch]

Younger shooters might not realize that the old one handed shooting style used in Precision Pistol (or Conventional Pistol as it was called back in the days) evolved from the Military.
Here is a photo from the early days at Camp Perry where the National matches are still held. I believe this photo from the late 1930's.

Why one handed shooting. This from USA Shooting Sports:
U.S. Cavalry troops were required to shoot dismounted on the Army Target “L”. Even though they carried sabers and carbines, revolvers and pistols were the primary arms of the cavalry. Just as foretop men aloft in the rigging during the days of sail was admonished, "One hand for yourself and one for the ship," so it was with the cavalryman, one hand for the horse and one for the pistol and that is why conventional pistol shooting is a one handed affair. After qualifying on foot, troops were required to repeat the course of fire while on their horse.



The military was still teaching one handed shooting after WWII as shown in this photo. Maybe someone else will know when they transitioned over to two handed shooting instruction.


But as this photo shows, as early as the 1940's various military armies were starting to teach two handed combat shooting techniques:
(From the article that accompanied this photo)
"The gunfighting style of 1942 does look extremely dated today. SOE (and later, OSS) training emphasized instinctive, point shooting, without reference to even the limited, low-profile sights of a wartime or prewar pistol. Nowadays much better sights are used much faster, and pistols are routinely shot two-handed. At the start of World War II, the Japanese alone trained for two-handed shooting; this picture shows that by 1944 Jedburgh teams were training to shoot two-handed, but even long after the war Applegate continued to train one-handed point shooting."

[MarkCO]

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

Gee, with attitudes like this I can't understand why so many new shooters aren't clamoring to get in line to do bullseye shooting only to have to listen to people disparage them for having the audacity to like other things.

At my range we have people with different interests. Every time a group of people interested in starting an action shooting group gets traction the fuds come in to shut them down. Because those same shooters are stealing their time slots? No, they deliberately choose other times. Because they're destroying the range? Actually they've added more utility to the range and brought in more income too. Because they're being unsafe? We have many more people trained as RSOs now. It's because they don't like it, they didn't do it, or they see people choosing to do it as rejecting bullseye shooting and what they like.

One day I might find a range where its members just let each other enjoy shooting in their chosen way, but my experience so far has made me think that isn't likely. Bullseye can survive, and frankly has applications for action shooters too. But the disdain some participants show for others is absolutely a turn off for many. It's a shame because many of those same bullseye shooters have a lot of great knowledge, but this attitude means that many people won't interact with those shooters and all that knowledge will die with them.

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Exactly. I started out shooting some small bore, bullseye and IHMSA. Too many old Fudds got mad when I, in my 20s started to beat them. At some clubs, they started to make up new penalties for me. It sucked, and I eventually moved on. I do like these reminders of the Fudds, so that I don't ever become one.

I have the position that all shooting sports are good, even if I do not like them personally. I don't much care for IDPA, but I started a match at my club and then handed it off because there were folks who did like it. Colorado Rifle Club, for the most part has a good diversity shooting most of the action sports and most of the straight line sports. There is a good and permissive approach by the BOD to let new matches start and grow. When I joined in 2011, it was straight line and SASS with about 550 members. Now, we have a full calendar of all types of shooting sports. We have Appleseed, clinics and just did an NSSF First Shots. The membership is now 1700+. Growth and health comes from not being Fudds. Preserving older sports also comes from the same place.

[Fishbed77]

Gee, with attitudes like this I can't understand why so many new shooters aren't clamoring to get in line to do bullseye shooting only to have to listen to people disparage them for having the audacity to like other things.

Agreed. I have to say that video games are more fun than spinning a hoop with a stick.

This is not a condemnation of bullseye shooting by any means (I've certainly enjoyed it on the few occasions I've had to participate), but just a reflection that general tastes change, for whatever reason. What's popular at one moment in time won't be popular forever. Enjoy it while you can.

[HighValleyRanch]

Too bad that some of you had bad experiences when trying to get into the bullseye world. Yes, in every crowd, no matter what the discipline there are the old FUD's and persnickidy people, but get used to it!
I've seen them in every crowd I've shot in, including CCW qualifications and steel challenges. The "in crowd" in just part of whatever you will enter.

But we always tried to open newcomers with open arms and encourage and coach as we knew that it was up to us to uphold the dying traditional sport.

Unfair? I remember that in my very first tournament, I was so nervous, but managed to shoot a pretty good darn score for my first try. I thought that for sure I would win something because my scores were better than any of the other lowly beginning "markmans". But to my surprise, because I was unclassified, I was competing againt the master class shooters ! LOL. I felt that this was pretty unfair, but kept on going.

I only have great rememberances of shooting bullseye. I've had the opportunity to shoot next to some of the greatest shots in the nation. One day, I was doing particularly bad, but the fellow to my left was world class. He came over during one of the interims to coach me. He said to pretend that there was a poem inscribed on my front sight and to try and read it. I always remembered that advice!

[TunnelRat]

I'd disagree that it's a function of not being able to handle adversity. To me it's a function of people just not wanting to deal with a-holes, which is certainly reasonable. Obviously this attitude isn't true of all bullseye shooters, but it does seem there might be a bit of a trend.

[HighValleyRanch]

To me it's a function of people just not wanting to deal with a-holes, which is certainly reasonable.

You're trying tell me that there won't be in your words, "A-holes" at the many training courses you say you attend? Of course there are, but you push through in spite of.
No difference, except that maybe bullseye has no attraction for some and that is totally acceptable.

[TunnelRat]

You're free to not believe me, but yes, at least in my experience I have encountered far fewer a-holes at the training events. It may be a function that there is an instructor that takes up most of the talking time and the presence of an "authority figure" keeps some of them on better behavior than they would have otherwise. All I can do is speak for my own experience.

[Sevens]

Haha, can't we all just agree to hate those fools who shoot clay birds with shotguns while we just get along with each other?!

That was meant as a joke. This sort of thing occurs in many other leisure activities as well. I find very similar parallels in sports. I sit in an arena and watch a hockey game and overhear countless discussions of how some folks "just cannot stand fans of Team XXXX", while I feel like fans of that team are hockey fans, and far more likely to be fun to sit near and chat with than say, basketball fans or stamp collectors.

When I was a teenager and getting in to shooting sports and activities, I shot four position smallbore and there were three kinds of people. All the Dads and coaches who were outgoing and enjoyable to be around... the large volume of kids who were trying to do what they were taught and doing fairly well in 2 or 3 of the 4 positions (and couldn't put up a decent Offhand score to save their lives...), and then the long-time shooters who had the pricey rifles, the $300 jackets, the glove, the glasses, spotting scopes that cost twice what our club rifles went for and every other superlative. We didn't get in their way.

[TunnelRat]

Haha, can't we all just agree to hate those fools who shoot clay birds with shotguns while we just get along with each other?!

While you meant it as a joke, it's actually a good point. There's a degree of admitted hypocrisy in sitting here saying we should all get along while stereotyping a group of shooters. Our own experience shape our opinions and I find as I get older it's harder to change my opinions. For all I know in 30 years I will be one of the fuds.

There are no doubt action shooters as obnoxious as what I'm describing above, and likely me being one of them, more or less, influences how I see things. I do feel my own experiences have been more one sided, but likely someone out there feels the opposite.

[HighValleyRanch]

It's a shame because many of those same bullseye shooters have a lot of great knowledge, but this attitude means that many people won't interact with those shooters and all that knowledge will die with them.

I agree with this! Unfortunately, the average person's knowledge of "precision shooters" personalities might only be as far as Brian Zin's in the reality show, "top shot". And although a master at his winning championships, he wasn't exactly what I considered humble as some of the great bullseye champions I've met.

I glad to say that Bullseye is not dead yet. There were still 242 participants at the Canton CMRPC, Ohio championships in 2017 abielt most of them over the age of 50 probably!LOL
A friend of mine, Tony Silva won High Senior with a score of (2567-92X)!
Most people will never understand the dedication it takes to achieve that high a score.

[MarkCO]

Most people will never understand the dedication it takes to achieve that high a score.

True. One thing I realized a few years ago, most people can't or won't devote that dedication to a specialty shooting discipline. For most, it is just a hobby, a stress reliever, their "Cheers" and or vacation. That is okay. As long as the folks in the top tier and the middle tier, keep people coming into the bottom tier, which is the largest, and most important for all of the shooting sorts.

[SIGSHR]

Here in NJ outdoor ranges are disappearing due to overbuilding.
FUDDs do drive a lot of people away, I recall an article in American Rifleman about how a range/gun club came under new management, the FUDDs were banished until they changed their attitude-and improved their manners.
IMHO the value of Bullseye is that it teaches people how to shoot.
"Too much politics and not enough shooting" ? Ignore the politics and there will no places to shoot-and nothing to shoot with.

[TunnelRat]

Most people will never understand the dedication it takes to achieve that high a score.

I think that's fair, and is also one of the reasons why I am always skeptical about how many people online can seemingly shoot 1.5" groups with their stock service pistols. There are diminishing returns when it comes to shooting, and to get to that very high level requires a lot of investment of time and potentially money as well.

[MarkCO]

The internet makes everything bigger, except group sizes, which it shrinks.

[Mike38]

The rest of the shooters were older than I was and I got the impression that they weren't all that keen on adding new members to their clique.

You must have some grumpy old goats in your neck of the woods, because it's the exact opposite by me.

Back in 1998 I decided to try my luck at Bullseye. All I had was a Ruger MkII Standard and a Glock 17. It only took about 5 shots and I knew a Glock was not a Bullseye pistol. But the Ruger had potential. A very nice couple loaned me an accurized M1911, even gave me ammo to enter my first match. They took me under their wing and coached me for a few months until I could save up the money to buy my own M1911. Everyone at the range that I went to for weekly practice gave me advice and helped me when ever I needed it. In 2003 I slipped away from Bullseye. But in 2016 I got back into it. Most of the people I shot with back in my early days are now passed, and now I'm one of the old guys on the line. Still, I'm getting all the advice and help I can ask for. Except for loaner pistols, that I have covered now. There is a High Master that shot back when I first started that is still shooting, and he's still a High Master. I pick his brain when ever I can, and he's more than happy to give advice. He recently told me that he placed 2nd one year at Camp Perry. So I take his help seriously. Back then I struggled to make Sharpshooter. Now I'm knocking on the door of Expert. I think with age comes discipline, and that is what is required in Bullseye.

My pistols now are a Benelli MP90 in .22. Benelli MP95 in .32 wadcutter. And a Colt M1911.

[MarkCO]

With a handle like Mike38, did you ever get to shoot any of the .38 Wadcutter 1911s of old? I got to shoot one from a local shooter in around 1989 or so. It was pretty cool.