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Old April 11, 2021, 07:14 AM   #1
Carl the Floor Walker
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One year later without shooting Center fire pistols

I finally broke down and took my two favorite Micro 9mm's (Kahr CM9 and Beretta Nano) to the range. I have been stashing ammo since before the Obama era, accumulated a significant amount. Typically before the Riots I was shooting between 1,000-1500 rds of 9mm alone. But completely ceased shooting March of last year. I knew the shortage was going to long and expensive. To shoot one box of ammo would be a astronomical cost to replace.

I took 300 rds. I started off shooting easy slow shots at 7 yds. Just a few mags showed me that I had not lost my proficiency at all. Then further out to 10 yds, then 15 yd, then Fast firing to steel plate target with different drills.
I actually felt recoil was softer than I expected from being away from shooting.

Why, for "myself" did I perform better than expected after a year off?
I can attribute this to one thing.

1) Steady practice/training with Air Pistols.
2) all the drills are the same as with center fire.
3) was able to shoot much more ammo without the Cost
4)was able to not just hone my point and shoot skills but actually improved them.

Some people will say the recoil is not the same and therefore not a good way to Practice. For me this has never been a issue. 9mm is mild shooting anyway, and recoil will just take your gun off target and you have to come back fast anyway, which you can to with multiple targets with air guns.

So they powder burners are will again be put away from firing more center fire ammo for another year and used only for Laser training which I also do.

Thank God, the Liberals are not taking away Air Pistols.(yet)

Just one of many of my Air guns. Walther CP88 rifled barrel Pellet gun used in competitive Iron Plate shooting in Europe. Great in DAO.


Comparison of a Makorov BB pistol to a Ruger LC9 which I owned years ago.


Another fun gun, the Walther PPK
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbazzYaU5VA

Replica Air guns- You can purchase from a variety of gun from the popular Sig 365 to the Beretta 92.
https://www.replicaairguns.us/

Sig 365 table top review

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av7apCOSU-c

Last edited by Carl the Floor Walker; April 11, 2021 at 07:44 AM.
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Old April 11, 2021, 09:38 AM   #2
dyl
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Neat. Which air pistol do you find has been most helpful in keeping up your skill with the CM9?
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Old April 11, 2021, 10:37 AM   #3
Carl the Floor Walker
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They all do a great job in their own way for Point and shoot skills. The Makarov does well for the Garage shooting as well as the PPK. Out doors I like the CP88, Walther CP88 and the 1911 with blowback. Just ordered the small 365 even though it was not a good fit for me when shooting the real gun, but hoping to adjust. I am very anxious to get the Atom8 when they finish the engineering and ready to market.

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Old April 11, 2021, 11:32 AM   #4
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Quote:
Just a few mags showed me that I had not lost my proficiency at all.
As I keep saying.. the sky isnt falling.

Should you train and practice? sure
Are shooting skills perishable? sure
Are your skills going to simply fall off in a matter or a year or two or three? I hardly think so.
Will you become a bumbling goof if you do not train regularly? I dont think so

I can recall not too long ago, I dusted off my AR after about 7 years of not shooting it. I had no problem what so ever- running the drills I typically run. It seemed louder than I remember but thats about it.

I believe that the more pressing question is whether or not a person has [ever] attained decent skill to begin with. If you have, I dont think you have much to worry about. If you have not, well... its a crap shoot.
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Old April 11, 2021, 11:48 AM   #5
Carl the Floor Walker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireForged View Post
As I keep saying.. the sky isnt falling.

Should you train and practice? sure
Are shooting skills perishable? sure
Are your skills going to simply fall off in a matter or a year or two or three? I hardly think so.
Will you become a bumbling goof if you do not train regularly? I dont think so

I can recall not too long ago, I dusted off my AR after about 7 years of not shooting it. I had no problem what so ever- running the drills I typically run. It seemed louder than I remember but thats about it.

I believe that the more pressing question is whether or not a person has [ever] attained decent skill to begin with. If you have, I dont think you have much to worry about. If you have not, well... its a crap shoot.
Will disagree. All skills even small ones like using a safety have to have constant muscle/memory skills. MOST importantly are IMO, are point and shoot skills. The eyes, the hand etc. all have muscles needed to continue to keep honed. You do not keep strong by going to the gym once a year, same with all your muscles and quick memory skills. I guess it depends how much you shoot during normal times. If you are the type of shooter that goes to the range once a month and just target shoots a box of ammo, then no, I do not think taking time off makes a bit of difference at all. But if you have spent years developing point and shoot skills, then that is a different story.
Besides I love to shoot. And air guns fills that need. And I love to shoot often.
Frequent Moderate Practice/Training. Even drawing requires a good constant skill set. I do not see the shooting sport much different than other sports.

Last edited by Carl the Floor Walker; April 11, 2021 at 12:00 PM.
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Old April 12, 2021, 04:33 PM   #6
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Well, after several weeks of not shooting at all, and a few months of barely shooting before that (and no dryfire to speak of) I headed to the range today and learned a few things about my skills.

Not as bad as I expected but definitely not as good as I like. Unlike the OP, I can't say I used to shoot 1,000 to 1,500 - was that weekly, monthly or annually? But I averaged 100 rounds/week before this most recent ammo drought. (Note: my current inventory is well stocked but like many others I'm pacing myself.)

Today my groups were not as tight and my timed drills were a bit slower, but I managed about 80% of what I know I could routinely shoot.

Lessons learned:
• It didn't take long to get rusty
• Dry fire whether I want to or not
• Years of developing skills stick around but there's a half-life of deterioration over time
• It's better to maintain a skill than to rebuild one
• 25 rounds/week is better than 100 rounds/month. Usually.
• .22lr will always be cheaper than center fire ammo




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Old April 12, 2021, 06:12 PM   #7
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I am certainly not trying to talk people into avoiding training. I will say that I consider most concerns about not shooting regularly to be little more than drama. If you have attained any manner of "decent" skill with your pistol, I seriously doubt that 1, 2 or even 3 years of not pulling the trigger is going to cause such a degradation in skill that it will cause you to lose a fight you otherwise would have won if you had practiced regularly. Could it? sure.. anything is possible. Do I consider it probable? nope.

I have never in my lifetime, sat around dry firing a pistol. I have fired my gun thousands of times and I know how the trigger works. I am not likely to forget anytime soon and I dont fret over the fact that I have not shot a gun since Feb 2020. Others might, and that is fine. Like I said, i am not trying to talk anyone out of training. Its just that unless you are trying to maintain some extra-ordinary level of skill where a fraction of a second or a mere millimeter is going to truly matter, I dont think putting a thousand rounds down range each month or sitting around for hours dry firing a pistol- is all the crucial.

Before all this covid crap hit the fan, I was training ever 3 months. To be quite honest, I never noticed any measurable difference between quarterly training skill and the skill I had back in the 90s when I was shooting every week. Training is certainly not a bad thing.. train all you want. Lets just not cry about our current situation, I have a feeling that its going to be fine.
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Old April 13, 2021, 12:23 PM   #8
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Bravo! Airpistols are a good, affordable way to practice. There was some Japanese rimfire champion who prior to participating in the Olympics never fired a real rimfire in his life. He practiced with an airpistol. The principles of marksmanship are the same and if it has a subsonic velocity, even better. That forces you to concentrate on follow through (I learned that from archery and couldn't shoot a handgun until I practiced archery first).

If you dryfire, use REAL snap caps. Don't need a broken firing pin. My brother learned that lesson the wrong way.
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Old April 13, 2021, 03:07 PM   #9
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Recoil isn't the problem for most people, it's the anticipation of it. By being able to practice your sight alignment, trigger squeeze, and follow through without any of the anticipation of recoil you can perfect each of those fundamentals more easily. This is why I'm such a big proponent of dry fire. I've never done much with air pistols but I can see how it would serve a similar function.

Of course one does need to train with live ammunition from time to time but it's really incredible how far one can advance their skills with very little actual shooting.
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Old April 13, 2021, 07:05 PM   #10
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I use to shoot about 250 rounds every time I went to the range; after about 200 rounds, my groups would start to open up a little. Now it's down to 100 rounds, which is more relaxing.

Anytime they elect a Dem that causes shortages, the government should supply us, shooters, with ammunition upon request.
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Old April 13, 2021, 09:32 PM   #11
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I have an air pistol to run some drill with. I don't have as much ammo as I should, but I have what I consider to be enough. I typically shoot 50-100rnds per month and plan to keep shooting that much, but am supplementing with my new air pistol. Its just a co2 bb G19. Im looking into getting a pellet version in the next few months, but air gun pellets are in short supply at the moment too, as I am having a hard time finding ones for my .22 pellet gun. But at least the prices are not jacked up on pellets, just hard to find.
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Old April 14, 2021, 06:56 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow9mm View Post
I have an air pistol to run some drill with. I don't have as much ammo as I should, but I have what I consider to be enough. I typically shoot 50-100rnds per month and plan to keep shooting that much, but am supplementing with my new air pistol. Its just a co2 bb G19. Im looking into getting a pellet version in the next few months, but air gun pellets are in short supply at the moment too, as I am having a hard time finding ones for my .22 pellet gun. But at least the prices are not jacked up on pellets, just hard to find.

I’m noticing that depending on which pellet gun you’re looking for some of those are hard to find as well.


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Old April 14, 2021, 07:08 AM   #13
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I have private land I can shoot on, and even with the shortages, I manage to get off a magazine or so each month. Skills can deteriorate, but with some live fire and a lot of dry fire practice, I think I am staying on top of things.
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Old April 14, 2021, 03:14 PM   #14
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There is a lot of training you can do with airguns, especially since you can get so many models now that match so closely to your real steel. This especially helps drawing from either a concealed or OWB holster. Tactics in close range simply do not change with an air gun, so I say have at it. They are a great resource. I personally also like the laser apps that incorporate timers and can track your first shot times.

Great to see everyone is staying sharp.
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Old April 18, 2021, 11:23 AM   #15
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As I've said other places, the Pink Rhino (hate the name) laser training cartridge, along with the Lasertyme target is a great resource. I have a 9mm cartridge, similar to what you would use for boresighting. There are a couple O rings which keep it in the chamber if and when I have to rack a pistol to reset it. A couple of DA ones I don't.

The target can ding or not, depending on where you set the switch, and if you're moderately talented with a soldering iron, you can put a resistor in to quiet it (or use tape on the speaker).

Cartridge and target are about 120-150 for both, and they also make 5.56, .45 and .38, I think. Good feedback for dry fire practice in the ammo dry spell.
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Old April 18, 2021, 05:06 PM   #16
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I have a SureStrike laser cartridge, and I use the Dry Fire Online simulator, this one: https://youtu.be/gzU6m2MuH70

No recoil, but better than nothing - after a year without range time I'm getting rusty

By the way, there was a topic about Co2 laser guns https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...recoil+enabled
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Old April 20, 2021, 11:27 AM   #17
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Airguns work great for building and maintaining shooting skills. I swear by them. Crosman 1322 .22 pump up pellet pistol is pretty cheap, accurate as hell and powerful enough to take out pests (Rats) and small game like rabbits, squirrels, partridges, etc.

Dad borrowed my 1322 a few years ago for snakes and feral cats in Florida. Pretty sure he plans on keeping it.

Just blew the quad valve out of my beloved Crosman 1300 Medalist II .22 Sunday afternoon, lots of hissing, no pressure.
Not bad for the original O rings... 50 year old gun. Shows the importance of keeping a couple pumps in it.

Ordered a reseal kit for the 1300 and a new Crosman 1322, steel breach, steel sights, etc. Not loaning this one out!

Love airpistols... so versatile. The better ones will penetrate through a tin soup can... pretty good indication they have the power to take small game with a well placed shot.
Two or three pumps and I can shoot inside the house if I like. 5 to 10 and look out varmints!

Last edited by shurshot; April 20, 2021 at 11:34 AM.
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Old April 22, 2021, 09:55 AM   #18
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If you are using an airgun for "training", I think what you are "maintaining" is your skill with an airgun.

If the suggesting is that using an airgun translates into prowess/proficiency with a firearm, I will have to disagree. I think you quickly reach that point of diminished returns when using a airgun or any other non-firearm in place of a real functioning gun. A person can certainly mimic but that does not eliminate the learning curve. If it did, a person would never need to fire a real gun.

I think that an airgun can certainly be used to convey some basic concepts or to help develop a measurable base position to progress from but I dont think shooting a crossman is going help me maintain my proficiency with a 45cal 1911.
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Old April 22, 2021, 04:57 PM   #19
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I didn't realize there was a difference in focusing on the front sight, trigger control, grip, etc. between an air pistol and an actual firearm. All the same in my eyes.

The air pistol practice definitely made my recent spring qualification with my duty weapon (S&W MP 9mm), much easier, scored 50/50... 100%. To each his own.

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Old April 23, 2021, 12:21 AM   #20
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Airguns work very well for firearm training. What they don't replicate well is blast and recoil. So for slow-fire shooting, they're just about perfect for replicating firearm behavior. For rapid-fire, they leave a lot to be desired, in terms of acting like a firearm does.
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Old April 23, 2021, 03:51 AM   #21
Carl the Floor Walker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa View Post
Airguns work very well for firearm training. What they don't replicate well is blast and recoil. So for slow-fire shooting, they're just about perfect for replicating firearm behavior. For rapid-fire, they leave a lot to be desired, in terms of acting like a firearm does.
I will respectfully disagree as I use them mostly for rapid fire training and have been for years. And they have been instrumental in honing my skills especially in point and shoot. Every thing is the same other than recoil. And for 9mm which does not have much recoil to begin with. I shoot DAO triggers and most of these are DAO or SA/DAO. Triggers, gipe, weight, sights, all basically the same.
And of course they are used in Iron Plate Competition in Europe and in some places now in America.
Listen to what this guy says about how competitive they are and the training that go with them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKfhwLJSSI0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNsqNJF4oJQ
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Old April 23, 2021, 02:14 PM   #22
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That's all I need...another hobby!

Looks fun. All kidding around aside- I shot club level action shooting matches for six years. I found the thing most new folks struggled with was front sight focus. Once they got past that hurdle they rapidly got better.

We had actually thought about a .22 RF class for our league just to see where that took us at the gunsmithing shop.

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Old April 23, 2021, 11:05 PM   #23
JohnKSa
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...especially in point and shoot.
They are good for that. Getting on target quickly and managing the trigger to get a good hit without wasting time.

By rapid shooting, I mean firing multiple shots in succession. A big part of that when shooting centerfire firearms is recoil control. Keeping a good grip on the gun, tracking the front sight, having a consistent hold so that the recoil behavior and front sight movement is predictable and consistent.

I've never found airguns to be good for that kind of practice because the recoil behavior is so different from firearms.

That said, airgun shooting can be an end in itself and if the goal is to shoot in an airgun competition then, of course, practicing with an airgun makes good sense.
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Old April 24, 2021, 10:41 AM   #24
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obviously there are people who consider "training" and "practicality" a little differently than I do. There will always be people who appreciate "nuance" to a degree that I may consider impractical or counter-productive. Its ok, there is room for such variances but I will call it like I see it when participating in a discussion on the subject. good luck
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Old April 24, 2021, 12:22 PM   #25
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