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Old June 29, 2020, 06:01 AM   #1
polska
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Shipping brass question to Il. residents

Is it legal to ship spent brass to Illinois?
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Old June 29, 2020, 06:35 AM   #2
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Not a lawyer, but there is nothing in the law that I am aware of that would make shipping brass or ammo illegal.
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Old June 29, 2020, 08:48 AM   #3
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Spent brass, no restrictions. It's just an inert metal.

Live brass (primed?), live ammo, primers, powder: IL law is clear that you cannot posses loaded ammunition without a FOID card, but does not address possession or purchase of ammo components. Most out of state suppliers will want to see your FOID card for verification to stay clear of the ISP, but there is no specific restriction.
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Old June 29, 2020, 09:14 AM   #4
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On all legal matters, keep in mind this is an Internet forum and while the answers may well be correct, for your own security you should still search your state and local laws online for confirmation. There are also online resources from the various pro-gun organizations that summarize laws by state. With the potential for unintentional criminal actions, you have a "trust but verify" situation.

Obviously, neither this board, its owners, nor the posters assume any responsibility for the consequences of incorrect legal opinions. You accept them at your own risk.
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Old June 29, 2020, 10:54 AM   #5
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If you can't find the answer online, your local USPS and (especially UPS) would have the answer. The people at the Counter are pretty knowledgeable.
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Old June 29, 2020, 12:37 PM   #6
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Quote:
Live brass (primed?), live ammo, primers, powder: IL law is clear that you cannot posses loaded ammunition without a FOID card, but does not address possession or purchase of ammo components. Most out of state suppliers will want to see your FOID card for verification to stay clear of the ISP, but there is no specific restriction.
I'm imagining a mailman being taken down for possession of ammo without the correct FOID while trying to deliver it.
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Old June 29, 2020, 01:00 PM   #7
polska
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I have checked their laws but they mention ammunition , firearms and explosives but don"t mention brass or projectiles. The problem is most of the so called officials have never heard of reloading and have no idea what we're talking about. The laws in every state are too vague.
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Old June 29, 2020, 05:57 PM   #8
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Yes, fortunately non-shooters don't have a clue who we are and what reloading is. California loves closing shooting ranges. I've been thinking of showing up at a closed range with a shovel and telling them that I was there to help remove the toxic waste. If they asked I'd tell them I was making..um..fishing sinkers.
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Old June 29, 2020, 07:42 PM   #9
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Another reason I'm glad zucc isn't a law maker... If it was up to him, having a picture of empty casings will send you to solitary...

Anyway. There's nothing I'm aware of that would make shipping empty cases behind enemy lines, I mean, to Illinois. I've done it. (That doesn't necessarily mean it's legal)

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Old June 29, 2020, 08:44 PM   #10
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if you do not have a FOID you would have no reason to need brass, if you have a FOID then there would be no need to post this question


edit - http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs...asp?ActID=1657


"Firearm ammunition" means any self-contained cartridge or shotgun shell, by whatever name known, which is designed to be used or adaptable to use in a firearm; excluding, however:

if I were a legal beagle I would interpret the above paragraph to include brass, primer and powder since it is adaptable to use in a firearm
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Old June 29, 2020, 08:58 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hounddawg View Post
if you do not have a FOID you would have no reason to need brass, if you have a FOID then there would be no need to post this question
Here's a novel idea... People not from Illinois have no clue what the requirements are. So we simply don't know. You act like everyone from is from Illinois and understands their bass ackwayds laws. Like what even is a foid? Hence the question.

People say the only stupid question is the one not asked. Especially when law is concerned.

Apparently, you don't agree.

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Old June 29, 2020, 09:00 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by hounddawg View Post
if you do not have a FOID you would have no reason to need brass, if you have a FOID then there would be no need to post this question
Way to treat a guy just trying to do right like a complete horses darriare

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Old June 29, 2020, 09:05 PM   #13
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Why ask on a forum that has of non Illinois residents if we are so ignorant. I gave you a link, might want to read it or do like I do when I travel with firearms. Call the local Sheriff's Dept in the state I am traveling in
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Old June 29, 2020, 09:08 PM   #14
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Because there are Illinois residents here... Imagine that. Isn't that a novel idea? The man asked a simple question and you preceded to berate him.

Again. The only stupid question is the one not asked. It's people like you that make people afraid to ask simple questions that could end up saving their life. Have some respect and decency

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Old June 29, 2020, 09:11 PM   #15
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mmmm I don't consider what I posted berating, I just pointing out the obvious. I also gave a link to the legislation so they could determine for themselves and offered a suggestion as to how to find out for certain
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Old June 29, 2020, 09:19 PM   #16
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It's fine. Empty brass cases are just brass. Yes, I live in the State of ILL
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Old June 29, 2020, 09:43 PM   #17
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Here's the issue the word "ammunition" is SUPER vague. Even in their definition, heck, they even throw in "by whatever name known". That is intentionally vague and wide sweeping . They don't specify it has to be a round containing a case/hull, propellant, projectile and ignition source. Just something that will basically go in a gun. The whole first paragraph of your first comment is completely useless. Right there is what my issue in your post lies. You say, flat or, there is no need to ask the question. I argue, strongly, against that. You may think you're Mr know it all, by posting the link. But I can assure you, you (and me) have much to learn. And learning is done via inquiry (doesn't have to be a verbal or digital question) but sometimes the hard part is finding the actual question to ask. The real question isn't always what's physically asked. It's just the surface manifestation. Which is why people don't always know how help themselves find the answer to the question.

If there's one thing I've learned from flying, is if you have ANY questions or doubts, especially when it comes to atc giving instructions, ASK!! Ask until you are 100% positive you understand. It doesn't matter how busy they are, they'd rather know you understand, even if it takes multiple repetitions, than have an accident, because you didn't want to bug them. I can't stress enough. If you have a question, doubt,etc. Ask. I silly don't care if someone asks what size bullets to use in x cartridge. At that point it's useless to say "it's in the book" which, yes, it is. And pretty specific too. That doesn't mean information had to be spoon fed either. We all knew nothing about this (or anything for that matter) at some point.

Anyway, I'm done people-ing for today

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Old June 29, 2020, 11:53 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nhyrum
Here's the issue the word "ammunition" is SUPER vague. Even in their definition, heck, they even throw in "by whatever name known". That is intentionally vague and wide sweeping .
No, the law is not vague regarding the word "ammunition." The law defines the word:

Quote:
"Firearm ammunition" means any self-contained cartridge or shotgun shell, by whatever name known, which is designed to be used or adaptable to use in a firearm; excluding, however:
The OP is asking about brass, so we don't have to concern ourselves with shotgun hulls or shells, or when a "hull" becomes a "shell." But we do have to concern ourselves with "cartridges." The law defines "firearms ammunition" as "any self-contained cartridge." Since the law does not define "self-contained cartridge," the legal principle is that we go by the dictionary definition. If I go to the Merriam-Webster web site and look up "cartridge," I find the following:

Quote:
cartridge noun

car·​tridge | \ ˈkär-trij, dialectal ˈka-trij \

Definition of cartridge

: a case or container that holds a substance, device, or material which is difficult, troublesome, or awkward to handle and that usually can be easily changed: such as

a : a tube (as of metal) containing a complete charge for a firearm and usually an initiating device (such as a primer)

b : a case containing an explosive charge for blasting

c : an often cylindrical container for insertion into a larger mechanism or apparatus

d : cassette sense 2

e : a small case that contains a phonograph needle and transducer and is attached to a tonearm

f : a removable case containing a magnetic tape or one or more disks and used as a computer storage medium

g : a case for holding printed circuit chips containing a computer program a video-game cartridge
The first meaning is obviously the one applicable to firearms ammunition: "a tube (as of metal) containing a complete charge for a firearm and usually an initiating device (such as a primer)." Spent brass does not contain a complete charge for a firearm -- it contains neither powder nor a projectile, and it would take a very devious judge to try to construe a spent primer as "an initiating device," since it is inert.

I think it's very clear that the law simply doesn't contemplate reloading components; it contemplates loaded ammunition. You don''t get to worry about whether or not it's adaptable to be used in a firearm until you first have a complete cartridge.
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Old June 30, 2020, 12:12 AM   #19
nhyrum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca View Post
No, the law is not vague regarding the word "ammunition." The law defines the word:





The OP is asking about brass, so we don't have to concern ourselves with shotgun hulls or shells, or when a "hull" becomes a "shell." But we do have to concern ourselves with "cartridges." The law defines "firearms ammunition" as "any self-contained cartridge." Since the law does not define "self-contained cartridge," the legal principle is that we go by the dictionary definition. If I go to the Merriam-Webster web site and look up "cartridge," I find the following:







The first meaning is obviously the one applicable to firearms ammunition: "a tube (as of metal) containing a complete charge for a firearm and usually an initiating device (such as a primer)." Spent brass does not contain a complete charge for a firearm -- it contains neither powder nor a projectile, and it would take a very devious judge to try to construe a spent primer as "an initiating device," since it is inert.



I think it's very clear that the law simply doesn't contemplate reloading components; it contemplates loaded ammunition. You don''t get to worry about whether or not it's adaptable to be used in a firearm until you first have a complete cartridge.
In the actual law posted above(even in your quote) after saying self contained cartridge, also says, "by whatever name known" so the word cartridge just got thrown completely out the window. Especially for it who have no idea about metallic cartridges, at all. The phase"by whatever name known" is the dangerously vague phrase that will most likely end up being twisted to include any and all reloading components.

In my opinion, the law is written extremely vague, but with key buzz words that get precisely vaguely described. It's a state hell bent on completely getting rid of firearms. But maybe I'm too cynical. Most every law written because someone doesn't trust someone else to be a decent human being. Think about it. Speed limits, to gun laws. All the government not trusting the people to be reasonable. We can't trust people to operate their vehicle in a safe way (and they've proven, time and time again just how stupid everyone is) so we have to make laws. We can't trust people to not be filthy animals and cover their coughs and sneezes, so we make everyone wear masks and gloves. We can't trust people to stay home, so we make everyone stay home. Get the idea?)

Alright, I'm out for real. I think the horse has been beat enough.


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Old June 30, 2020, 01:59 AM   #20
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Sorry to open such a can of worms. I just figured someone from Illinois, who reloads, could tell me if it was ok,and someone has . So thanks for all the information.
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Old June 30, 2020, 02:20 AM   #21
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This is one of those things I wouldn't even care what there state wants . I'd ship it assuming it's direct ship to a private residence and it doesn't weigh 50lbs . It's like saying you can't ship a firearm also means you can't ship only the stock . The case is not a cartridge and the stock is not a gun . As the state official come sue me or maybe it's best you concentrate on COVID , the riots and defunding the police rather then if I'm shipping some empty tubes of brass that can't be anything other then a paper weight with out significant effort , time and money .

Quote:
if I were a legal beagle I would interpret the above paragraph to include brass, primer and powder since it is adaptable to use in a firearm
All that above said , I agree with the quote . I see the writing as easily argued that an empty case is prohibited from shipping into the state .

I had 2k 158gr bullets sent to me but the post office said they would not deliver and I had to got pick them up at the post office . When I did the all but 5'2" gal came back with my small 45lb package and barely could get it on the counter . She asked "what's in here " , I wasn't sure what to say so I just said " lead " . She gave me a little tweak of her head and a confused look and said have nice day
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Old June 30, 2020, 02:58 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nhyrum
In the actual law posted above(even in your quote) after saying self contained cartridge, also says, "by whatever name known" so the word cartridge just got thrown completely out the window.
I have to disagree. Laws are based on language, and language has a hierarchical structure. You can't get to 'B' if you haven't passed 'A.' In the case of this law, it says (to beat the poor, dead horse one more time) " 'Firearm ammunition' means any self-contained cartridge or shotgun shell, by whatever name known, which is designed to be used or adaptable to use in a firearm; ..."

Before you can get to the "by whatever name known," you must first have a cartridge. Whatever you choose to call it -- "cartridge," "shell," "bullet," Fred," or "Hermione" -- if it isn't a cartridge by an accepted definition, then it doesn't matter what it's called. Conversely, using the language you are concerned about, if what you have IS a cartridge, then calling it a paperweight won't protect you.

"by whatever name known" is a subordinate clause. It is separated from the body of the sentence by commas, and the sentence can be read -- and make complete sense -- if you omit that clause entirely. A subordinate clause does not control the operative clause in a sentence.

[For a scholarly discourse on how this works, read Justice Scalia's decision in the Heller case. He analyzes how such clauses operate in discussing the militia clause in the Second Amendment.]

That's how language works. Words have meanings.

I am reminded of the joke that is often attributed (apparently incorrectly) to Abraham Lincoln:

Q: If you call a dog's tail a leg, how many legs does your dog have?

A: Four, because calling the tail a leg doesn't make it a leg.
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Old June 30, 2020, 04:34 AM   #23
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To save everyone from having to look it up, here's what Justice Scalia said about subordinate clauses and operative clauses:

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf

From the Summary:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heller - syllabus
Held:

1. The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. Pp. 2–53.

(a) The Amendment’s prefatory clause announces a purpose, but does not limit or expand the scope of the second part, the operative clause. The operative clause’s text and history demonstrate that it connotes an individual right to keep and bear arms. Pp. 2–22.

(b) The prefatory clause comports with the Court’s interpretation of the operative clause. The “militia” comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. The Antifederalists feared that the Federal Government would disarm the people in order to disable this citizens’ militia, enabling a politicized standing army or a select militia to rule. The response was to deny Congress power to abridge the ancient right of individuals to keep and bear arms, so that the ideal of a citizens’ militia would be preserved. Pp. 22–28.
(Emphasis added)
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Old June 30, 2020, 06:35 AM   #24
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in retrospect I should have just suggested calling Brownells, Grafs, Brunos etc and asking them if they could ship brass to Ill.
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Old June 30, 2020, 06:58 AM   #25
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Almost all will ship to here. I have never had any issue with any of the commonly known retailers we all have dealt with in reloading and firearms related materials. .
Some will not ship to cook county, just because they don't like the intimidation from Chicago, legal or not.
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