Why Expensive Shotguns??

[BigJimP]

Hogdogs

For what its worth, I hope someday you will find yourself in a financial situation where you will be able to purchase whatever you want in terms of a sporting, hunting or competitive shotgun. If you want another 870, a Browing, a Perazzi or a Kolar or Krieghoff - it doesn't matter. But I hope its truly whatever you want.

I wasn't buying expensive guns, early in my career, or when I was still raising a family - some of that stuff takes time ....


Don't get rid of the dogs ...

[zippy13]

My friend, BigJim, raises a point that is seldom mentioned: Forum contributors share a common interest in shotguns; but, we have diverse backgrounds. Young or old, white collar or blue, student, working or retired, our shotgun budgets differ significantly.
Like BigJim, I'm a empty-nest grandfather. What seemed like an extravagance when you've got children to raise and a mortgage to pay may not seem so when the house is empty and paid off. I didn't start shooting competitively, or have comp guns until I was in my mid-40s. For several decades, my budget allowed me to shoot only informally, infrequently and with less than satisfactory guns. Most of the guys I shoot with are of similar circumstances.

[Waterengineer]

BigJim, Zippy:

Gentlemen, very elegently put.

To put it in my simpler, more direct language, with age comes more expensive guns. I mean we all need something to aspire to.

[protectedbyglock]

Those are some BEAUTIFUL pointers.
This is so weird. My dad had a german shorthaired pointer named "Duke" so many years ago. I used to ride him like a horse when I was a kid. My fiancee and I were just talking about them last night. She had never seen or heard of one before, so I looked up some pics for her. I haven't mentioned duke to anyone in probably 15yrs. I like my border collies a lot, and my golden retriever, but I may end up with a pointer again some day. They are BORN to be bird dogs. Unbelievable, really.

Sorry, off subject a bit.
As far as high-end, expensive shotguns go... I don't really know jack about them. I just can't imagine what is so much better about them than something around $1000 or so. I've held and shot a couple very nice shotguns (not crazy nice...that guy wouldn't let me shoot his ) that I can honestly say I wanted but couldn't afford. I can certainly appreciate good quality, but $5k...$10k...$20k!!! At that price, in my book, you're either talking art, you make a living shooting comp, you're a rich olympic hopeful, or you're just filthy freakin' rich. I'm none of the above, unforunately, but I'd love to have a really nice used gun in the $1000 range someday if I really get back into trap like I was.

In my opinion, too, a car analogy doesn't quite work. For example, an Acura NSX gives you a hand-stiched leather, mid-engine race car vs a civic being a fuel efficient little commuter. A little easier to justify the 3-4x pricetag. I don't see one of those, we'll say $5,000 shotguns, being 22.5x the shotgun one of my Ithacas is. I just don't see it.
Both guns will go boom when you pull the trigger. Sure, you may have a better fitting stock. Maybe better internals and nicer wood and better barrel. Maybe it's not so hard on the shoulder. But is it 22.5x better? Really? With the extra $4800, I'll figure something out.
Heck, for $5k could I get a shotty hand built from scratch with my own name on it? I would call it "The Continental"....wait that's already taken (by a shotgun nonetheless, I just googled it). Ok then, I would just call it "Thunder Stick"

[Waterengineer]

Glock:

1. It's good we don't all like the same thing. Some guys like cars, some guns, some expensive women they can't have, some boats, some airplanes. We all make our choices and we all have our aethstetic. Personally, I like cars and guns - being an engineer it is sometimes about the technology. With you liking cars, I'm sure you get that.

2. GSP's are my favorite dog: They're smart, energetic, "birdy", and slobbery. Nothing like them in the field - I'm sure others will disagree. If I didn't travel as much as I do for work I would have another one.

3. Back to guns. Yep, they all go bang. Yep, it is fun to outshoot the "dandy" with the fancy gun. But, after spending a lifetime around outdoor things, and to stay on topic, guns, it is perhaps easier to understand and appreciate the history, aethetic and technology of the different guns.

Hopefully, for you, you will get to a place where there will be a contemporary Ithaca, an old Ithaca, a new Browning, an old Browning, a Parker, a Smith, a Stevens, a Merkel, a Purdy, a Grffin and Howe, a new Beretta and an old Beretta all laid out on the same table (for an example group.) And, also, perhaps there will be someone there to instruct, educate and help you understand.

Once you get into the more expensive guns, the differences become sublte, it is about the wood, it is about the craftsmanship, is it about the hand cut etching, it is about the hand cut checkering, it is about the different steels, it is about the differences in actions and it is about history. ANd, it is about the beauty.

Saying that one gun costs 22 times more than another then comparing a civic and an NSX is not fair.

A better comparison would be the crazy price of shotguns with the crazy price difference of a '78 corvette and a restored (better: an original) 1953 corvette - substantial price difference there. Or if you want to use contemporary cars what about the difference in price between a Civic and an Bentley Arnage. They will both get you there - but which one do you want to get there in?

In the end, it is about what you can appreciate, what you like or love, what you can responsibly afford and what create joy for you. Wouldn't the world be a boring place if we all liked the same thing.

[protectedbyglock]

I can appreciate history and art, I really can. My sister is an artist, and a good one. We made a trip together to the MOMA in San Francisco a couple years ago, and we argued a lot. We had a wonderful time, though.
By the way, Andy Warhol is a fraud.

I just don't understand where quality, art, and history stop and status begins. It's an age old question, I guess, and if you have the money.. more power to you. I don't see how it's any different than a lot of things. I saw a $1,000 golf club the other day, and it wasn't one of Jack Nicklaus' old clubs, either, just some nike titanium something or another. I'm sure it's a heck of a driver, and I hope the guy using it feels like tiger woods.

Beautiful, shiny new expensive shotguns, to me, fall into the same kind of category. The beauty and history of a brand new gun will only take me so far, usually to the point where I say "How much was that again, sir?"
I'd spend my money on a family trip to spain.

You're absolutely right, though, as far as how dull things would be if we all felt the same way. Same with cars. Honda S2000 vs. Porche Boxter. I'd take the S2000 hands down, any day of the week. But if nobody spent twice the money on a boxter, I'd have no fun at track day.

To each his own, though. Some people just have to think a little harder about where they spend their money than others do. I'm just a poor boy.

[Shorthair]

Thanks for the kind words on the dogs, guys. Protectedbyglock, since you mentioned your fiance, I'll assume that you're in your 20s. This isn't going to be a "you listen to me, whippersnapper" post, so don't take it that way.
I'm not wealthy by any means, and I got a whole lot poorer last year. I'm sure many of us did. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't still appreciate the finer things in life. There's a reason those guns cost more, its because there's a market for them, and the market says they're worth it. There's a reason there's a MOMA, its because people value the art that hangs within. And that art didn't come free, someone spent a lot of money to donate it so people like you and your sis could go argue about its value.
I own and appreciate the utilitarian value of a basic pump shotgun, but it warms my soul to walk in the woods with a shotgun that points and fits like it was made for me and gives me something to look at when I have to give the dogs a breather.
I own rifles as well.
My custom Swedish Mauser:

Or my custom Savage 7 mag:

I built both rifles. The Savage shoots 3 rounds into one hole at 100 yards. It is utterly utilitarian, (OK, it's butt ugly) and it wasn't expensive to buy or to customize. The Swede shoots into .75", and it took me well over a year to finish, and I put way more money into it than I should have. Both have killed their fair share of bucks. Can you tell me which one you think I get more pleasure sitting on stand with during deer season? I think you know....
Finally, if there really was no difference between an 870 Express and a $1500 Beretta or Citori, posters of Jessica Alba wouldn't outsell those of Rosie O'Donnell. Beauty has its own value, and if it works - and I'm thinking Jessica would work a whole lot better than Rosie for me - its worth it.

[Waterengineer]

Shorthair:

Nice Mauser!

[Webologist]

"Another point. At the trap club I used to frequent, some of the best shooters did not use the fancy shotguns. The best trap shooter at that club used an old, beat up, field grade, 870. He could outshoot the the guys with guns that cost more then a small sedan.

I do believe that some shotgunners think that an expensive, fancy firearm can make up for any short comings in skills."

I've seen this same thing and it really impressed me. I stopped by the traps after a day of shooting to watch. A very odd pair were shooting side by side alternately. One was a old grizzled guy with a plaid shirt and an old 870 with a canvas shotshell bag who hit everything he aimed at. I never saw a miss. His partner with a gorgeous Italian OU and all the best new gear money could buy rarely hit anything.

It impressed on me that a $150 gun in the hands of a master accustomed to it is infinitely better than a $2500 gun in the hands of an unskilled novice. It was a very nice lesson to see...

Regards,
Web

[protectedbyglock]

Web, isn't it awesome to see someone who is really good with a shotgun? I wish I had half the skills of some of these guys.
I've outshot a "dandy" (as waterengineer likes to call them- very funny, btw- I like to call them "fancylads" ).
He had a silver and gold side by side (wish I knew what), and I had my beat up 37 (20ga). We shot 50 birds a piece. He only missed 2, but I didn't. I swear, he made me shoot much better than I normally would. All he said to me afterwords was this: "You shouldn't be shooting a 20ga, we're shooting 12s". The guy I was with seemed strangely upset that I beat him.
Somebody said he spent $12k on his gun. I doubt that, but who knows. I would have liked to shoot his gun, but he wouldn't let me touch it.

A little off topic, I guess, but when I was skiing one time, this old guy (who looked EXACTLY like Jerry Garcia) went FLYING past me on a snowboard. He was wearing sweatpants and a t-shirt, big gray beard wrapped around his neck like a scarf in the wind. He was absolutely tearing up the slopes, and showing up the younger guys with the expensive gear. One of the coolest things I've ever seen. And he wasn't just downhill boarding, he was catching every jump he could find on the way down.

Back to expensive shotguns. Like i said before, I'd spend $1k, maybe $1500 on a nice one. Not $25k. Some will, I won't. I just looked at a Merkel Rifle. Wow. That's my style! It's got a lion engraved on one side, and what looks like a water buffalo on the other. Maybe it would make me feel like Hemmingway if I owned it, who knows. It's certainly beautiful. Would I ever pay $12,500 for it? No. Different strokes for different folks, as they say. I also looked at one of those Merkel 303EV O/Us. $21,000!! Is it really worth that much to some people? Really? Wow!

I also find it hard to believe, that by spending $21,000 on a shotgun, you are somehow doing some great service to humanity like the people donating money and expensive art to museums. To me, theres a big difference and that's a pretty big leap.

It seems to me that just because there's a market for something, doesn't make it worth it, or worthy, or even sane. Look at longaberger baskets. What? To me, that's insanity.

[BigJimP]

Sometimes the package you see - isn't quite what it seems ...

I see guys with old beat up pump guns worth $200 that can shoot lights out / and guys with some $25,000 Krieghoff's that rarely miss a target at any clay target game. I see shooters with old pumps and fancy guns too - that can't hit their butt in the dark with either hand... It doesn't make the 870 a better or worse gun than the Krieghoff .... but the craftmanship in that Krieghoff is certainly worth at least a 2nd look.

Some of us may be a lot heavier than we were in our 20's / a little grayer / and lord knows we could see a target better before our eyes went to 20/350 ....or whatever took its toll ... but that doesn't mean some of us weren't all american athletes in the 50s' or 60's / or able to shoot lights out and compete with the big dogs at the time ....

I don't really care what gun you shoot - its about having a great time in the moment you're in now every time you pull a trigger on one of your guns - and regardless of what gun we shoot, most of us don't lose that competitive drive .... I don't care if I'm shooting for a coke at the end of the day / or for a nickel a round or against a guy with a pump, a Browning, a Perazzi or a Krieghoff - I still want to beat him for that coke, or that nickel ....

Stay in the moment - but appreciate good craftmanship as well - Kolar and Krieghoff - Perazzi - Blazer ( are some of the best ) / but I'm never ashamed to walk into any gun club in the country carrying one of my Browning O/U's or my Benelli Super Sport either. Be a competitor, be a cordial and easy person to be around and shoot with, shoot whatever you want - have a good time / stay in the moment. Be happy for someone that can afford a nice gun / if that's what they want .... and be happy for someone that shoots their pump gun well ....... and if they ask first, help a new shooter or someone who is struggling out a little. I'm not sure anything else matters too much. But I'm still going to buy that Krieghoff or Kolar in the next couple of years ... and it'll be worth every penny / because I'll enjoy every penny I spend on it and every time I shoot it ( just like I do on all my guns now ) - and I don't care if anyone else admires or even likes the gun - it'll be fit to suit me, with the options that I want...

[freakintoguns]

im perfectly happy with my Remingotn 870, my Springfield XD .45, my suburban and my S-10. and im sure the guys with 10K plus O/Us, rolls royces and range rovers, and custom (insert 1911 customizer name here) guns are perfectly happy with what they have. different strokes for different folks

[Alert]

why's everybody so caught up in budget stuff anyway? some of us are willing to shell out a little more to buy what we want instead of settling for Rugers

[Ricklin]

We haven't heard again from the OP in this thread since page 1

[Smallgame2100]

I dont have a problem with kick, so the guns feel fine to me. I get it for a 10th of what the expensive shotguns would cost. No complaints.

Just my humble opinion.

[TheManHimself]

To a lot of people, a fine firearm is a work of art. Where's the difference in a skeet shooter paying thousands for a handmade, beautifully finished and engraved shotgun, and an art collector paying thousands for an original piece from some long-dead master?

[johnbt]

The shotgun has a practical use.

Donations to a museum? Shrug.

Donations to soup kitchens? Two thumbs up.

[Waterengineer]

Glock:

Is a post above you say something about liking lions on guns.

Then you need to look here, but these aren't cheap!

http://www.kolararms.com/engraving.html

[HammerOfThor]

This thread has been beat to death but it irritates me when class envy rears it's ugly head.

Simple answer is that not everybody wants a Mossberg. :barf:

I love the arguement about the guy with the old rusty gun came and outshot the guy with the brand new fancy one.

Here's how it really works. The guy with the Mossberg who does fine bird hunting goes to the gun range to shoot sporting clays for the first time. He gets teamed up with some guys who shoot fancy guns. They proceed to school him through the whole shoot which he doesn't finish because his mossberg breaks.

I love expensive guns. in fact I just bought a $1100.00 Kimber. Last year I bought a $1800.00 custom AR for coyote hunting. Looking at more as soon as possible.

Lastly I've shot a lot. My whole life. And I've never seen the old man with the rusty shotgun story actually play out. I have seen the young smartass with a chip on his shoulder who can't afford better get schooled many times though.

[protectedbyglock]

Ohhh, man, Waterengineer....those are sweet. No doubt about it.
Makes me kind-of tingly inside. (shhhh, don't tell)

If I sold my Jeep, my Civic, My Toyota pickup...my 2 AR15s (One Colt), my XDs, my glocks, my stainless springfield 1911, all 3 of my Ithaca shotguns (and Winchesters, and Mossy .410 for the kid and fiancee), and my SKS and my Remington 700, my LCP, and my Browning A5..... plus some cash and my Ruger Stainless Target .22.... I could get the Kolar "Best"....(maybe).

Darn you rich people!!

I have also shot all my measly life, hammer. I grew up with an Ithaca in my hands from age 10. First day of summer, every year I'd dump all the books and stupid learnin' crap out of my bookbag and I'd fill it up with shotgun shells, fishing lures, a canteen, a little frying pan, a fork, and a stick of butter. I lived on the river. Grab the Ithaca and the old zebco 202.

I'm in my 20's now...watch out old men with 20k shottys!!

I could really care less what people buy with their money. I'm glad to see that people get enjoyment out of clay games and their prized posessions. Really, I am. I don't understand why anybody would spend $20k on a shotgun, but I'll chalk it up to MY ignorance. Maybe I'll understand when I go back to school to get my masters?
However, if I get out of school (again), and I still don't understand....then I'm calling a revolution. Maybe even a class war!

And for the record.... Kimbers are soooooo overrated.

Alright... I'm going back to my Vonnegut book. At least he understand me.

[HammerOfThor]

And for the record.... Kimbers are soooooo overrated.

Sorry my young friend only experience will cure your young mind. You'll get there someday.

[Waterengineer]

Glock:

We are getting a little off track here but you write:

Alright... I'm going back to my Vonnegut book. At least he understand me.

KV is going to have trouble talking back considering he's dead.

Also, where did you get that KV quote in your signature? IMHO, that quote is decidedlyun-KV like.

[protectedbyglock]

No, the book. He doesn't have to speak back. I know he's dead.
It made my huge collection of first print hardcovers much more valuable!!

I can't remember exactly where that quote came from to tell you the truth. I think it was in an interview I read one time. He was joking about how unpopular you would be with the guys if you didn't know gun safety and accidently shot one of them. I can't find it at the moment, but it's out there.

[oneounceload]

Hey Glock - if you can't understand 20k for a gun, how about these then??

Only 170,000 for the pair:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Pur...n_id=100051795

Now I just have to find my winning powerball ticket........

[protectedbyglock]

Ok, that's it.... I'm all in.
Here's everything above, plus my other guns and cars....and the keys to my house!!