questions on 870 Police Magnum

[Chris17404]

Hi everyone,

My name is Chris and I'm a new member. This is my first post. I'm currently in the market for my first shotgun... used primarily for home defense and sporting practice, and possibly a little hunting. I've done a lot of research and I've come down to the Remington 870 Police Magnum 12 gauge with 18 inch beaded barrel and 4+1 shot capacity as my choice. I have a dealer near me who can order a new one for about $399.

I have a few questions:

1. I prefer the look of the walnut stock and foreend, but is wood more difficult to maintain? How would you suggest cleaning and maintaining it?

2. I like the idea of the parkerized finish, but is it too much of a hassel to have to soak it and wipe clean before using? How is maintaining this type of barrel different than a blued finish?

3. What do you suggest as an additional, longer, all-purpose barrel for hunting, and sport shooting? 28 inch? Do they make longer barrels in parkerized finish to match the rest of the shotgun? Would you recommend a rifle-sighted barrel for these purposes?

4. Is the difference in trigger pull weight (7lbs vs. 4lbs) a big deal? Is one preferable over the other?

Thanks, and I welcome your feedback. This forum has been an incredible source of information for me while reseearching my best choice.

Chris

[craigntx]

answers

1. why do you need to "maintain" the wood?
it'll probably outlast you. its just not as durable as synthetic.
its a gun, not a dining rm table

2. soak it and wipe clean?
maybe wipe it after shooting.
its more durable than blued finish. rifle sights are great
for hunting, better than a bead

3. yep, longer bbl are available in park. but with the cost of a bbl
(usually over $100,) you could almost get another gun. i got an 870
mag at a pawn shop for $150
unless you get really lucky and find a deal

4. the stock trigger pull on my magnum is fine for anything i would use it for
yours is i believe even lighter, unless im wrong.

[Chris17404]

Does anyone happen to have pictures of the 870 Police Magnum with the blued barrel finish? I'm curious to see what it looks like. I doubt it's as shiny as the Wingmaster's blued finish. Thanks.

[Dfariswheel]

The "blued" Remington 870P Police is actually more a satin black finish.

Just look at the shell lifter on most any 870 and that's what the entire gun looks like.

Remington only offers one blued Police model these days, since the parkerized finish is 60% more durable, according to Remington.

You still have to keep a coat of lube on the blued versions, but the rougher parkerized finish retains the lube better and it does out-wear any blued finish.

The Police guns have military-type oil finished American walnut wood.
To maintain, you can just rub on a thin coat of boiled linseed oil every once in a while.

If the Police gun's slightly heavier trigger really bothers you, it's a simple matter of a few minutes to replace the Police trigger-sear spring with a spring from a Wingmaster or Express gun, and you can do it yourself.

[Chris17404]

Thanks, Dfaris.

I'd also like to make sure that I can use any 870 barrel on the 870P. Is that correct? I was thinking something in the 28 inch range with a RemChoke and vent rib would be good. This replacement barrel would need to be parkerized also to match the rest of the gun. I haven't been able to find any online yet. They all come in "blued" finish rather than parkerized. I'm a stickler for having things "match". Do these exist anywhere?

Chris

[craigntx]

2 companies i saw in gunlist sell tons of shotty bbls
get one and look em up

[Bosshoff]

The 870P is a great choice. Concerning a seperate barrel for hunting, keep an eye on EBay. This is your best bet. Sometimes people do not list their items as well as they should, and if you search closely you will find a bargain. I would think anything under $80 would be a great deal. Next, because you care about the finish, take your 870P and the new barrel and have the new barrel parkerized by a gunsmith. If it does not match, tell the guy he will have to repark the 870P for free as well! He may want to do this anyway?
A little more costly to go this route.
Personally, I'd just snatch up an older Wingmaster off of gunbroker. I just got a 1970 870 Wingmaster Magnum with a 30" full choke (I am going to have it drilled for Trulock chokes) for the low price of $201.00 plus $20 to ship, plus $25 for my friendly FFL. I have $246 into it, and maybe I'll put another $125 in it for chokes?

[Chris17404]

Does anyone know if the 870P with the "blued" finish comes covered with cosmoline on it also? Or is it just the parkerized one? I am considering going with the blued one because I think I'll like how it looks better, and was wondering if I'd still need to drench it in RemOil or CLP and wipe off the cosmoline. If it does not come with cosmoline on it, what else should I do to get the gun ready to use? Thanks!

Chris

[DPris]

It's not actually cosmoline, and you won't need to wipe it off as such.
Give it a good coating inside & out with something like Break Free or Hornady's ONE SHOT cleaner & dry lube, dry off the excess, and shoot it.
Denis

[Chris17404]

Got it. Thanks Denis.

[DPris]

The stuff Remington puts on them is a mostly dry storage preservative.
Cosmoline, if you've never seen it, is a thick and sticky grease & usually applied liberally on all metal (and frequently wood) parts of a military gun. It's a thorough mess to remove.
I can't see any signs of a wet or grease lube inside or out on the new PMAX I've got here.
Denis

[Dfariswheel]

Remington sprays ALL their Police guns inside and out with a thin coat of hot cosmoline.

This is to preserve the gun during shipping and storage.

This is NOT a thick, slathered-on coating, and most people never even know it's there, unless they wipe the gun with a light colored cloth and get a rusty looking stain off.

One man I know thought it was rust and sent his new Police back to the factory to be re-parkerized. After they refinished it, they again sprayed it with cosmoline, and he was outraged to find the newly refinished gun STILL rusty.

He was raging about Remington's quality, until I explained it to him.

Per the Remington LE web site, they recommend field stripping the gun, including the magazine assembly, then spraying it dripping wet, inside and out, with Rem-Oil or CLP Breakfree.

Allow to soak 30 minutes to dissolve the cosmoline and soak into the parkerized finish, then wipe down and put in service.

To read this, look under the FAQ's: http:www.remingtonle.com

I used CLP Breakfree, and every time I use the gun I re-apply CLP before putting it away.
Over time, this builds up a coating of Teflon on the gun, preventing rust.

You NEED to do this even on the blued Police gun, since cosmoline protects ONLY for storage.
It doesn't provide any protection while in use.

[Chris17404]

Thanks again, Dfaris.

Could you please explain what it means to "field strip" the gun? I looked in the 870 Owner's Manual, and it shows you how to disassemble it, but I don't think it goes quite as in-depth of disassembling as is required to get rid of all the cosmoline.

Chris

[DPris]

DFaris,
Didn't know there was such a thing as "hot" cosmoline, the only cosmoline I've ever encountered is the type I described & I think that's what most of us have in mind when we hear the word. I was trying to correct what I took as an impression of "cold" cosmoline having to be wiped off the gun. None of it's visible on mine here, bone dry inside & out.
I must have gotten an atypical one, there's no sign of anything that looks like rust on it that I can see anywhere, just clean steel inside and regular dark matte exterior like the Police Magnum I tried four or five years ago. I didn't doubt from the cosmoline references here that there was some type of a preservative involved, just saw no signs of traditional "cosmoline" on this thing.
Guess I'm doing something wrong.
Denis

[Dfariswheel]

Chris17404:
"Field strip" just means to disassemble the gun as in the owner's manual.

Remove the fore end, the bolt and slide, the trigger group, and disassemble the magazine tube exactly as the manual shows.

Then spray everything down.with Rem-Oil or CLP Breakfree.

I don't recommend soaking the stock or fore end if you have a wood stocked gun.

DPris:
Just going on past experience and Remington's recommendation.
I did get a little off mine.

Remington says they spray the Police guns with a spray of hot cosmoline, and I'll take them at their word since I had to pay for mine, myself.

The gooky, slathered military guns are usually done with cosmoline melted by sitting the can in a pot of hot water.

Cosmoline does melt to a thin consistency when warmed, and Remington says they use a hot cosmoline spray in their FAQ's under the "Service" tab.

I have seen a few rusty Police guns that the owner just took out of the box and started to use.
Remington doesn't include a word about this with the gun, so most people have no idea they might need to "pre-treat" the gun.

Of course, It's hard to tell if the rusty guns rusted due to not removing the cosmoline, or from simple neglect.
Considering some of the owner's you could flip a coin.

[Chris17404]

Please forgive my ignorance, Dfaris... but when you say "spray everything down", what does that include? I assume it's all the metal parts, but should I exclude any? Does that include inside the gun also? Is the cosmoline on both the inside and outside of the gun?

Disassembling the gun according to the owners manual looks relatively easy, but if I had to disassemble the receiver, I would not feel confident doing that, especially since this is my first shotgun.

So, if you could just list the parts that I'd need to spray down, that would be great. Thanks.

[Chris17404]

Oh... and what should I wipe the gun clean with after spraying and letting it sit for a while?

Also... is there a cleaning/maintenance kit you'd recommend for an 870?

Thanks.

[DPris]

DFaris,
Curiouser & curiouser.
Checked with my gunsmith of 21 years, Remington certified service center, able to get a couple parts ordinarily highly restricted, and so on. Knows nothing about cosmoline on the guns.
Just spent ten minutes on the phone with Remington. The gal said she'd specifically asked their armorer about cosmoline & he said Remington had not put cosmoline on their guns since the '70s. We were both talking specifically about the police models.
They do recommend spraying them down as you noted originally & letting them sit for about 20 minutes so the parkerizing can soak up the lube, but say there's no cosmoline on them. The spraying would be to essentially season the finish, more than to remove any cosmoline. You can get a brownish cleaning patch from going over a new phosphate finish, is that the "rust" your friend encountered?
That would fit with the nature of parkerizing, it's my understanding the finish is only superior to bluing if you keep it lubed, and the phosphate finish works better than bluing in that it retains lube better because of its "porousity".
The gal said the armorer told her if you soak it thoroughly up front it should be good for 12 months or so before you'd need to do it again.
She didn't know why the website mentions cosmoline, and if there's cosmoline on the one I've got here it's a totally different cosmoline from any I've ever seen.
Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to clear up what's actually going on with these guns. Did somebody at Remington tell you it's cosmoline?
Denis

[mathman]

Just spent ten minutes on the phone with Remington.

That is probably the worst place to get info...Remington told me not long ago that there was NO difference between the express and the police except for the finish...which is BS. Everything that Dfaris has said about the police has been true in my experience.

[Chris17404]

Well, I did it... I placed an order for a new 870P model #4899. It should be here mid-week next week. Cost was $399 minus 2% for cash . I don't mind spending the extra money for a quality shotgun. The dealer just called up a distributor he knows, and didn't have any problem locating one. In fact, he had quite a few. I guess I'm lucky. Anyway, thanks for all the gret info and keep it coming!

[DPris]

Math,
Obviously there's some confusion at Remington, that's why I kept going through a couple levels to try to pin it down.
The gal I talked to said she'd questioned that cosmoline thing specifically with their armorer, apparently the issue had come up recently. You frequently have to wade through two or three tiers of people when you first call a company, unless you know who to call in the first place.
I've got an email request in now with the office I normally deal with at Remington to point me to a definitive answer person willing to be quoted.
I'm not saying DFaris is totally up in the night, I don't think he is. The reason I'm trying to clarify this is because it seems to be a concern that's causing confusion, and when I do the write-up in a couple weeks on the one I have, I'd like to be accurate and informative for readers not familiar with all of this.
It's new to me, my old parkerized Express had no indications of a rust problem, signs of cosmo, or other related issues out of the box. Neither did the parkerized 870 Police Magnum I had here a while back.
As noted, it's not mentioned in the owner's manual, my gunsmith has never heard of it, neither have I, and if it's a fairly recent practice it oughta be known to potential buyers to avoid unpleasant surprises.
Another issue is the confusion in most people's minds the term cosmoline brings. Most familiar with the stuff immediately picture a thoroughly gooked-up gun that's going to take hours to de-gook. On seeing a dry gun, they may decide somebody was lost in the ozone & go ahead and shoot it as it comes out of the box. I've seen old cosmo and dried cosmo and caked cosmo before, but I've never seen invisible cosmo before. I'm glad to have seen these posts, I would have just tossed in a little Break Free inside & shot the thing. Now I know, at least partially, better and I'd like to pass that on.
I emphatically do not mean to be knocking DFaris or Remington. Actually, this whole project was partially based on his enthusiasm for the PMax, and I'll be keeping the gun when the article's done. Kinda like it. Looking forward to shooting it when I get a couple other things out of the way.
Denis

[Dfariswheel]

I'm going on two main sources:

1. Is the Remington Law Enforcement web site.
In the FAQ's they SPECIFICALLY state that:

"Q: I received my 870P and began to give it an initial cleaning. Rust came off the barrel and receiver. Why did the gun come to me rusted?"

"A: It was not rust, it was cosmoline. Because we do not know if the guns will be stored for a long period of time in a warehouse or put in a shipping container and shipped out of the country, Remington sprays a film of cosmoline over the inside and outside of the firearms to protect them from the elements when stored. That is one reason why it is so important to totally clean and lubricate your firearm before using. It is not good to just take it out of the box and begin shooting it or carrying it on duty."

2. The customer who thought his new Police gun was rusty after wiping it with a white cloth.
He returned it to Remington, Remington re-parkerized it, re-sprayed it with cosmoline and returned it.

He again got rusty looking brown stains off it, and complained about Remington's quality.
I explained the situation to him, and he called Remington to confirm.

A LE manager explained about the hot cosmoline, and told him some people hadn't gotten the word about the "rusty stain" issue, or they would have explained it to him instead of wasting everyone's time and money on an unnecessary return and re-finish.

To be fair, this was about 3 years ago.
I have NO idea if Remington is STILL doing this, but since I've seen it before, AND the Remington Official LE web site says it's so, I'll continue recommending exactly what Remington themselves say, until they "officially" say otherwise.

Chris17404:

Spray EVERYTHING except the wood or synthetic stock.
Spray the inside of everything including the receiver, and inside the magazine tube.

Let soak 30 minutes, then drain, shake, and wipe everything down, leaving a THIN coat of lube on everything.
Do enough to leave a thin coat, but you don't have lube running out from hidden areas.

Just wipe it with paper towel, or a clean cloth.

I recommend a good shotgun rod, brass bore brush, 12 gauge patches, a good bore solvent, and a chamber brush with handle.
This is about all you really need, along with your choice of lubricant.

Again, just follow the owner's manual instructions on how to disassemble the gun.
The receiver's bolt assembly comes out VERY easy, which is another 870 strong point.

[DPris]

DFaris,
Thanks. That wasted time & money scenario is part of what I'm trying to help avoid.
If the guns need special treatment, Remington should be telling people that.
I did see that section of their website you quoted, and I mentioned it to the gal I talked to today. She told me their armorer told her it's not cosmo, so they also need to get their info together to give people correct information in whichever direction is true.
I'm still wondering if they're just using cosmoline as a generic term for whatever spray they might be putting on them.
I meant no offense to you, just trying to figure out which way's up for the article, and you're partly responsible for that.
Denis

[Chris17404]

Thanks again for the great info, Dfaris. I have a few more questions...

During the disassembly process, a couple of the steps confuse me. Maybe it'll be easier to understand once I have the gun sitting in front of me:

Step 9: "Lift the breech bolt assembly and slide assembly from the rear of the action bars."

What exactly do I do here? A picture is worth a thousand words. I'm a very visual learner!

Step 13: "Tap out the front and rear trigger plate pins."

What exactly does that mean, and how do I do it? Tap from the inside of the receiver or the outside? Is there a specific tool I need to do this?

Thanks!

[Dfariswheel]

To "Tap out the front and rear trigger plate pins", get a wooden golf tee, or use a punch.
The wooden tee won't scratch the gun up.

Use whatever to just PUSH the two large pins on the side of the receiver until you push them out.

Once the pins are out, the trigger guard (trigger plate) can be removed out the bottom of the receiver.

To remove the bolt assembly, gently pull the forearm forward until it stops.
Reach up inside the bottom of the receiver, and press and hold the LEFT shell stop outward as shown in the manual.

Gently slide the forearm forward, and the bolt and slide assembly will slide out the front of the receiver.

Don't worry too much about "Lift the breech bolt assembly and slide assembly from the rear of the action bars.", since they'll fall off if you don't hold onto them.

Just in case, here's a link to an online factory owner's manual:
http://www.stevespages.com/page7b.htm

DPris:
NO PROBLEM.
I'm now wondering if this is old info, and the LE division just isn't updating their web site.

As a gunsmith, I tended to rather slavishly follow the factory recommendations, figuring that NO ONE knows more about their guns then they do.

I'd like to get a final word on this, but I figure that doing the strip and Rem-Oil or CLP business can't hurt, and might save an owner problems.

I always liked to remove the factory grit and dirty lube before using a gun, and this also gives you a good opportunity to check a new gun out for factory defects.

I'm not sure just how to resolve this, since it seems every time someone talks to Remington, they get different stories.

I had one old customer who knew nothing about shotguns call the factory to get the straight story on just how many rounds a standard 870 held.
He was told that the 870 holds FIVE rounds in the magazine, and ONE in the chamber.

In fact, for a time, this info was actually listed on the commercial site.

I guess the "Sprayed cosmoline" business isn't a critical issue, so until further notice, I'll continue to recommend new Police owners follow the Remington recommendation.