270win KaBOOM

[N.H. Yankee]

I think this is classic bullet setback as it was forced by the bolt. Neck tension varies slightly from one manufacturer to the other and if it was a reload who knows how much tension there was? Also if it was dropped and hit the ground tip first that could have moved it enough to get the ball rolling so to speak.

[Gbro]

I did a little more checking today. Last night I chambered a dummy in my Ruger 77r and pulled the trigger. There was a very faint strike mark on the primer I installed in the dummy. This dummy round has no flash hole and I was thinking that if it did fire I would see some setback of the primer due to head space. The head of this 30-30 case did-not fit into the bolt face on the Ruger.
Then I dug to the back of the gun safe and got my FN Mauser with a .270 barrel.
This rifle fed the 30-30 smoothly into the chamber (the Ruger didn't feed the 30-30 cartridge without some assistance) and struck the primer as solidly as I have ever seen one struck. It was an off center strike and the primer was held flush. This bolt face is just like the Parker Hale's.
Here is a pic of the 2 bolts,
(the Parker Hale bolt is not shown here)

[Colorado Redneck]

I have a 270 winchester. A co-worker picked up a box of reloads in the street one day and brought them in to me. They were 270's and looked like they were loaded with Nosler partitions. The box said 270 and the cases were marked 270 on the head stamp.

I took those to the landfill. Didn't have a clue what had been done, and didn't need the cases. IF (big if) they had been factory fresh instead of reloads, them maybe I would have thought about using them.

We gotta be really careful to prevent accidents. What happend with Gbro could happen to most of us. Thanks for sharing your experience and am really glad everyone lived.

My son has a 25-06 and I reload for him, and load my own 270 rounds. There is some rsik of getting these mixed up, but the 270 shouldn't chamber in the 25-06, and the 25-06 would probably just shoot really crappy in the 270. Still, gotta be aware.

[80viking]

I don't own anything chambered in 30-06, but I have 3 rifles that I currently use 06 brass in, 7.65 Belgian [I'm a smart ass], 7mm Mauser [2], then throw in a couple of 8mm Mausers that are loaded with the correct brass, it is not unusual for me to have one or more of my precious children at the range with me using any of these rifles, I will be looking at implementing additional safeguards other than the plastic ammo boxes that are used by almost all reloaders, color coding case heads at the very least...........thank you for starting this thread

[Nnobby45]

Rifles are precision instruments--Do NOT force em.

Oh, then how else would you get an '06 to chamber in a .270?

[James R. Burke]

Anyways thanks for the info. I think it is good to share stuff like that. I dont know about anyone else but it does make me think about safety, and cross checking lots of stuff. Thanks again- Oh myself and wife both have a Ruger No 1A light sporter hers is a .243 and mine is a 30-06. They both have a Leupold century limited edition scope on them. There the same length, weight, and looking thru them the same. The only thing differnt is the caliber, it will make us more carefull. We are now but just the same good post.

[Sport45]

Snuffy showed an example of a .308 that had been fired in a .280 and the rifle survived with no ill effects. Why did the .30-30, which operates at much lower pressure than .308 cause so much damage to this gun? Just bad luck?

[Dr. Strangelove]

Looks like it wasn't the cause in this situation, but that's exactly why I don't re-form cases. I can understand when you have rare caliber, but .270, .30-06, etc. are just too common and it's too easy for mistakes to happen.

If I did do it I would stamp or punch the caliber designation in some way that made it obvious that it wasn't the original caliber.


After trying to load a 7mm Rem Mag into a .270 Win the other day at the range, I keep only the ammo for the firearm I am shooting available, the rest stays in the range bag.

[frankcnb]

http://i568.photobucket.com/albums/s...b/100_1440.jpg
My son grabbed a 308 reload and fired it in a Savage 110 270. Here is the picture of the 308 in the center.

After he fired the rifle he said the bolt would not open. Back home I tapped the bolt up and pulled the cartridge out. I made the comment, thinking something wrong with the 270 load, that the neck was missing. Looked in the chamber-no neck in the chamber.

As he was looking at the brass he said, "Uh, this is 308 brass".

Evidently, he had reached in the wrong box. The extractor claw had to have held the 308 enough to fire or the firing pin would not have set the cartridge off seeing as how the 308 is shorter.

My son and I learned a lesson that while we are at the firing range to make sure to check that the right ammo is being used and to separate the boxes of ammo.

By the way, the bullet hit within the group.
I guess that is one way to swage a 308 down to 277.

[Gbro]

Why did the .30-30, which operates at much lower pressure than .308 cause so much damage to this gun? Just bad luck?

My 1st thought is the Parker Hale is no Arisaka!

2nd .007" smaller barrel.
3rd The metallurgy of the receiver or bolt are probably different.
4th The history of the rifle. What is to say this same thing or similar didn't happened previously?

Frankcnb posted,
My son grabbed a 308 reload and fired it in a Savage 110 270. Here is the picture of the 308 in the center.

Will that savage 110 hold together the next time it is subjected to extreme pressure?
Or you trade the rifle off and the next owner has a high pressure condition and the metal is already stressed unknown to them. The possibility are endless!

In my 1st photo of this thread there is another rifle in the background that was fired with the wrong cartridge in it and the rifle was retired and used now as a training aid. That Ruger mark II is chambered in 7MM Rem Mag and a 7MM-08 cartridge was fired in it. The bolt was thrown open and the magazine floor plate distorted and the stock cracked. The gunsmith that inspected the rifle after the incident recommended that it never be fired again. Now many wouldn't heed that advice, but that owner did and had the firing pin removed and the chamber area of the barrel mill open to observe head spacing. I am trying to get the owner to have the cutaway opened up larger so the lead and some rifling's are in view.

I stick this photo up on the projector during my Safety Classes and ask the class what they see. The off center hit(s) are commonly seen, but the two strikes are rarely noticed.

[mapsjanhere]

Why did the .30-30, which operates at much lower pressure than .308 cause so much damage to this gun? Just bad luck?

The 30-30 round probably got tilted off-axis during its 1/2 " free flight in the chamber, and maybe the flat head bullet caught on the end of the chamber. So it didn't enter the lands smoothly and allowed the pressure to build up.

[Buzzard Bait]

Could it be that someone resized a 30-06 round down to 270 ( it's easy just lube the case and run it up the die) But the reloader did not thin the case neck the extra metal made the neck wall too thick. When chambered in the rifle the bullet/case pinched against the chamber and had no room to expand and release the bullet this along with a max load caused very high pressure and burst the rifle. He could have even made it worse if he didn't trim the case after reforming it. The case would have been long enough to be up in the lead area of the barrel this would have made the bolt pretty hard to close but watching a old buck can keep you from feeling the extra resistance. If this were a old Eastwood movie Clint would say " a man has got to know his limitations"
B

[snuffy]

Could it be that someone resized a 30-06 round down to 270 ( it's easy just lube the case and run it up the die)-------------_________

Could it be that you didn't read the entire thread????!! The cause HAS BEEN DETERMINED!

As for a couple of points, in my case with the .308/.280 wrong caliber, look closely at the bullet ogive of the .308 round, and the shoulder of the .280 round. You'll see the 308 bullet will just enter and headspace on/in the shoulder of the 280. It will be in perfect position to get a hit from the firing pin.

I suspect the same relationship exists with the 30-30 in a .270 chamber. The bullet of the 30-30 would run into the neck of the 270, be held there in position. The reason the 30-30 blew is the case head is smaller than the 270. The 308 and 270 share the same head size, so it could seal at the rear where the thutty thutty cracked and the escaping gas did the damage.

In my scenario, the 308 in question was loaded by me with a 130g spire bullet with a mild load of H-335 for plinking rounds for his wife. The lighter bullet and mild load probably saved the rifle.

My 1st thought is the Parker Hale is no Arisaka!

2nd .007" smaller barrel.

Actually the difference from .277 to 308 is .031 thousandths! That's an awful lot to swage a bullet down, especially if it was held in place with no way to get a running start at the neck. Then it would be reduced in size twice, once in the 270 neck, then again in the bore!

[Sport45]

The reason the 30-30 blew is the case head is smaller than the 270. The 308 and 270 share the same head size, so it could seal at the rear where the thutty thutty cracked and the escaping gas did the damage.

That seems like a very reasonable answer to my question as to why the 30-30 destroyed the gun when a .308 didn't.

[Gbro]

Chevalier Snuffy,

When I posted the .007 I was thinking in terms of the difference between the .277 and .284 bullet/bore size as he was making a comparison between your 308/284 incident.
I was also told that the Parker Hale didn't have a venting hole on the receiver.
I have only heard that and do not know the facts, but there is different opinions on the purpose of a vent in the receiver?? and would it have saved the day here??

[plainsman456]

I have seen a ruger 77 in 7mm mag after a 270win was fired and it was scrape.

[Gbro]

My quote,

I was also told that the Parker Hale didn't have a venting hole on the receiver.
I have only heard that and do not know the facts, but there is different opinions on the purpose of a vent in the receiver?? and would it have saved the day here??

I made contact with an owner of a Parker Hale on another forum and he told me his rifle has no receiver gas vent.
My FN Mauser has no receiver gas vent either.
What I mean by My FN, the only markings on it are,
FN-ACTION Made in Belgium. This Rile is custom built, no serial number, target .270 barrel, glass bedded, and shoot terrible. Why it was chambered in .270 win is puzzling to me also.

[F. Guffey]

I have never seen a cartographic? failure on a forum that was not a guessing game, as I have stated before, "there was nothing and then all of a sudden and without warning the rifle swarmed and I do not have a clue"

This is not something someone would do because there is no logical reason, but for me some of my time is spent trying to distinguish fact from fiction and truth from nonsense, the 270 loaded round has an outside neck diameter of .311 +or minus very little, the inside neck diameter of a full length sized 30/06 case is .307 + or - very little, when checking the loaded 270 I will slide a full length size 30/06 case neck over the neck of the 270, with a little effort the 30/06 neck will slide over the 270 neck, If there was a benefit it could be a small increase in bullet hold, and if the was thicker/thinner neck the amount of effort would be more/less and if by mistake a 280 bullet was seated in the 270 case the 30/06 neck would not fit. Point being when someone tells me they sized a 30/06 neck/w bullet down to 270 W by closing the bolt I have to say "you missed that lesson, didn't you" the lesson that says when resistance is felt when chambring a round, STOP! Determine why there is resistance to closing the bolt. if you do not know the camming effect (advance) in thousands (.000) find out. The difference between crush fit and catastrophic failure is more then FELT resistance to closing the last .001 thousands. The 270 neck is longer than the neck of the 30/06 by .099 meaning the 30/06 when chambered in the 270 the first .100 thousands of the shoulder must be sized down before the bolt can close, this is not 'bump' this is resistance to chambering before the locking lugs began to cam.

So, interesting pictures beyond that, no value. of the receivers that failed by friends, no mystery, no guessing game, and I benefited from their mistakes, I have tested receivers that were said to be suspect, I would not consider testing the receivers with cases that were fired to their final form as in fired so many times they quit growing, I used new commercial cases, not military.

Observations at the range, I have been setting next to someone trying to chamber a round in a rifle, with difficulty, after getting involved I have found a bullet lodged in the throat that was preventing the next round to chamber, one time the last case was ejected with the primer crushed, no powder? another time the primer was not hit, primer,powder, bullet and no dent in the primer with a cartridge that had a COL problem, meaning when the last round was extracted and not fired the bullet remained in the throat and jammed into the rifling, powder charge remains the same but the weight of the bullet doubles PLUS when fired there is no free bore, no running start.

I was on the pistol range, a shooter was doing his best to pull the trigger on a S&W Model 66, I stopped what I was doing and asked him what was he trying to do, he said he was trying to pull the trigger, I ask him why, He did not know, we shut the range down and examined his pistol, he had a bullet lodged between the cylinder and barrel meaning the cylinder would not advance, he had started loading the day before, bullet, case and primer, no powder, he blamed his scales, we removed the bullet, two of us offered to help him with his reloads, I offered to loan him a scale. I do believe he became a more serious reloader or made someone a deal on his new Dillon 550B. I did not ask him if everything he knew about reloading came from the Internet. We did not want him to feel like he wasted a trip to the range, we offered to share ammo, he purchased new ammo from the range.

F. Guffey

[80viking]

F. Guffey, thats a great point you made about learning to reload via the internet, you really need to use published reloading manuals first until you have a complete understanding of the reloading process and characteristics of how different components work and work together, the reloading manuals are compiled from years and years of hard work and proven data and techniques, plus[even though they all use disclaimers] there is some accountability, reading material by some great gun guys like elmer keith, paul mathews, ken waters,there are many more, should also be used by more experienced reloaders because of the lack of controlled conditions and modern laboratory instruments that were used to compile the reloading manuals we have today and like with internet information an inexperienced reloader cannot distinguish fact from opinion or cannot distinguish when a safe load in one gun can make another gun go kaboom

[F. Guffey]

80Viking, it has brought to my attention I did not read all the responses, it would take a go-rillo to chamber a 280 Remington or 30/06 in a 270 chamber then somewhere the question was asked how a 30/30 could destroy a rifle and a 308 W would not.

The 30/30 rim would not allow the case head to be supported against the bolt face, if the case was not new but full grown as having been fired 5 times to make it full grown (hammered and hardened) the case when fired without support would rip, split, fracture and render the rifle scrap

308 W in a 270? I would not bet the rifle would survive one more dose of the 308 W, but as in fire forming AND WHEN THE TIME FACTOR IS ADDED, the case head was supported and the case head spaced? on the shoulder, the 308 W is .011 thousands larger in diameter at the shoulder than the 270 case when measured from the head of the case to the same point on both cases, meaning there is less taper on the 308 than the 30/06 family of cartridges. What does this have to do with the spike in pressure? Pressure is reduced because the case first has to expand and fill the chamber before pressure can increase, then comes the bullet diameter? The bullet had a running start, in this situation the term free bore could be used loosely as .500 + normal free bore. A 308 in a 270 with the wrong bullet will render the 270 rifle scrap.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

then there is the other school of thought regarding primer strikes, everyone else believe the bullet, case and powder (total weight) can accelerate to a speed that would allow the total weight of all three to out run the firing pin, not in my rifles, the primer is first crushed then 'other' events take place, I mention this because a 30/30 test round (with a primer) was chambered in a Ruger, then the bolt was closed and trigger pulled, in that situation the primer was spaced out and away from the bolt face by the rim against the outside edge of the of the bolt, and depending on the type of extractor a very good case could be make for the difficulty of closing the bolt on a 30/30 in a 270 chamber.

F. Guffey