Condition 2

[histed]

Do any of you carry a 1911-style in condition ? I know C1 is the traditional way and C3 is the "safest" way, but here's my concern. I have an M43 Firestar, which I like in spite of it being "too heavy" for CC. What I don't like, or trust, is the manual safety. I have ... bad dreams about what could happen. I also am not fond of C3 carry, as I can envision too may situations where I may need my off hand for something other than working the slide. The only real downside I see to C2 is the possibility that my thumb may slip in a high pressure situation, but shouldn't the half cock notch catch it? I know someone(s) is going to say "Get a Glock" (or whatever), but at this point another firearm is not an option. Many of you have carried 1911s or clones thereof for years. I'd value your opinions.

[Koda94]

if your not comfortable carrying it in your preferred condition then its not the right carry gun for you.

Its not a 1911 but a half cock notch would catch the hammer as long as your finger wasn't on the trigger. It also doesnt have a firing pin block... something to consider if the half cock were to fail.

[3.Shot.Group.]

If I have to go investigate something, I'll put it in condition 1. If I'm out in the woods or such, I'll put it in condition 2 or condition 1, one is just as safe as the other and just as ready.

If I'm sitting around the house and want the gun there and loaded, I'll put it in condition 3. 3 is less ready than 1 or 2, but not by much. If anything happens to my offhand at this time I'll rack the slide with my teeth.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by 3.Shot.Group.

If I have to go investigate something, I'll put it in condition 1. If I'm out in the woods or such, I'll put it in condition 2 or condition 1, one is just as safe as the other and just as ready.

If I'm sitting around the house and want the gun there and loaded, I'll put it in condition 3. 3 is less ready than 1 or 2, but not by much....

In other words, as you go from place to place you would be handling your gun and changing its condition of readiness to suit your choice for the location/situation. And if you need your gun, you will need to first consider where you are and what state of readiness it's in in order to know what you will have to do to deploy it.

None of that sounds optimal to me. Also, unintentional discharges are a good deal more common when handling a gun than when the gun is just sitting untouched in its holster.

In addition, some of the Spanish 1911 type pistols don't have an inertial firing pin (i. e., a firing pin which is shorter than the firing pin channel). I don't know if the Firestar is one. But without an inertial firing pin when in condition 2 the firing pin will be resting on the primer of the cartridge in the chamber. That is not safe. So be sure to check out your pistol before deciding to carry it in condition 2.

[histed]

Frank, how do I know if this is an inertia firing pin? Also, for the Spanish made pistols, are you saying that C3 is the safest carry option?

Koda, I agree that, in a perfect world, I would be carrying something like a Glock or an XD. That's the plan for the future, since I fee more comfortable with that type of set up. For now I practice from C3 as often as I can. Thanks for the observation.

[JimmyR]

Originally Posted by STAR M43 Firestar Manual Page 6

Safeties
b) Automatic safeties ...Firing pin safeties which keep the firing pin blocked until the trigger is pulled all the way through

This would lead me to believe that the firing pin is NOT resting on the primer, this making the gun safe to carry in condition 2.

That said, I keep my 1911 in condtion 1 when loaded for nightstand duty. I personally don't feel comfortable attempting to maintain a firm grip on my firearm while cocking the hammer. Thumb safety is the only manipulation I want to deal with.

That said, I carry my SA/DA pistols with either no safety or with the safety off...

[Derbel McDillet]

I carried an M43 for several years. I loved it. Great little pistol. If it wasn't the first ultra-subcompact pistol available then it was one of the very first.

It ain't called "the brick" for nuthin'.

I carried it Condition 1 in a Milt Sparks Executive's Companion leather IWB holster. Never had a problem.

It has a firing pin block.

I retired it from CCW when I got a Glock 19 several years ago. (I finally sold it last year and bought a 2-inch S&W 632 .327 Magnum revolver for my wife.)

Good luck!

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by histed

Frank, how do I know if this is an inertia firing pin?...

I'm afraid I can't help with that. I'm not really familiar with the pistol and am only passing on a caution I've heard with regard to some Spanish pistols.

Originally Posted by histed

...Also, for the Spanish made pistols, are you saying that C3 is the safest carry option?...

There are a lot of Spanish pistols. From the little I know of the Star 43, I'd think that C1 would also work.

[psyfly]

histed:

Per the manual:

http://www.star-firearms.com/firearm...tar_manual.pdf

The M43 is described as safe in both Condition one and in Condition two: It has a firing-pin safety.

I have a Star M40 (Identical to the M43 in .40S&W) and I carry it condition 1 (on the rare occasions I carry it), as the little hammer doesn't lend itself well to easy manipulation.

Best,

Will

[histed]

Psyfly - you've never had a problem with accidently disengaging the safety? Or does your holster cover the safety? Guess I just need to spend more time getting comfortable with the idea of having that hammer back when the weapon's in the holster.

[psyfly]

It is an act of faith (in the system).

The Firestar has, AFAIK, a unique set-up.

The firing pin safety blocks the firing pin until/unless the trigger is pressed.

The manual safety disengages the trigger from the sear.

The half-cock safety catches the hammer if it should somehow fall without the trigger being operated.

With the manual safety on and the hammer cocked, you can cycle the slide to load, unload, or simply check the status of your chamber. All with the manual safety on; the pistol cannot fire.

Try this: Carry it around for a while cocked and locked with the chamber empty and the manual safety on and see how often it somehow works it's way to off.

It's a good way to build your confidence in the pistol. If the manual safety does somehow work itself to off, then you know not to carry it condition 1. I actually did have one pistol (Not the Firestar!) which would seem to do that.

All this being so, in answer to your original question, according to the manual; due to the firing pin safety, it is safe to have the pistol in condition 2.

Be careful.

Best,

Will

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by 3.Shot.Group.

If I have to go investigate something, I'll put it in condition 1. If I'm out in the woods or such, I'll put it in condition 2 or condition 1, one is just as safe as the other and just as ready.

If I'm sitting around the house and want the gun there and loaded, I'll put it in condition 3. 3 is less ready than 1 or 2, but not by much.

I'm with Frank; this is a terrible way to train with your pistol. If you have to use it to defend yourself it will probably be in a stressful situation; so why would you make things as complicated as possible for yourself when you have to use your pistol under stress?

Originally Posted by 3.Shot.Group.

I'll put it in condition 2 or condition 1, one is just as safe as the other and just as ready.

If Condition 2 is just as ready for you as Condition 1, you may want to re-evaluate how you handle a pistol.

[Mobuck]

I carried a Hi-Power for years in "condition 1" if that's what you want to call it. I finally found a DA/SA that I liked and quit packing the HP. Here's where I'm different from how many/most people seem to operate: I load my pistol and it stays loaded(full mag, round chambered). I don't unload and reload unless there's a mechanical reason such as getting it wet or full of dust. I don't feel the need to clean after every use and I don't usually fire more than a mag full occasionally because I already know it works.
I own and carry the pistol for one reason-personal safety. That is best accomplished by having it ready to fire w/o any more input than sight alignment and trigger pull.

[histed]

Try this: Carry it around for a while cocked and locked with the chamber empty and the manual safety on and see how often it somehow works it's way to off.

I will. This makes perfect sense, especially since the slide can be worked and the chamber charged even with the safety engaged. Not really different than condition 3 at that point. An act of faith - never thought of it like that. Thanks

[FireForged]

I don't think I would want to go around articulating the hammer of a loaded pistol on a routine basis. If its a single action pistol, the only thing I want to articulate is the safety.

[Bill DeShivs]

Condition 2 is fine, as long as you train that way. It's not unsafe. Your Star is a very safe gun. All the other "safeties" are between your ears.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

It's not unsafe.

In order to put the gun into Condition 2 you need to pull the trigger while there's a round in the chamber. That doesn't seem as safe to me as Condition 1.

[Dwight55]

Try this: Carry it around for a while cocked and locked with the chamber empty and the manual safety on and see how often it somehow works it's way to off.

I will. This makes perfect sense, especially since the slide can be worked and the chamber charged even with the safety engaged. Not really different than condition 3 at that point. An act of faith - never thought of it like that. Thanks

Uhhh, . . . no, . . . that will not work. A 1911 with the manual thumb safety engaged will not allow you to work the slide.

The safety has to be thumbed down first.

The thought pattern of carrying an MT 1911 until you prove to yourself that it is indeed safe, . . . now that is good, . . . and I think I can say that everyone here would recommend that for any one unsure of a 1911.

May God bless,
Dwight

[psyfly]

It will work fine with histed's Star M43.

You're correct, of course, won't work with a 1911.

Best,

Will

[psyfly]

Ooops. Duplicate.

Will

[Garycw]

Personally I would rather carry cond #3 than #2. I always carry 1911 cond#1 but to my surprise the other day when removing holster I noticed I had been carrying in cond#0. The trigger is covered & locked in though.

[dawg23]

No offense to the OP, but if you're carrying that gun as a self-defense weapon, and you have that little faith in its safety features and/or in your ability to handle//operate it safely, you need to do two things:

1. Get some serious SD handgun training.

2. Get a better SD handgun.

To do otherwise appears to place you in a situation in which you're kidding yourself. Compared to rifles and shotguns, SD handguns are puny, inefficient weapons. Depending on one with all the limitations you've mentioned (limitations of the handgun and limitations of the operator) strikes me as a very poor plan.

[Slopemeno]

I'd also fall into the "condition 3-vs-condition 2" camp, if I had to choose.

[Bill DeShivs]

"In order to put the gun into Condition 2 you need to pull the trigger while there's a round in the chamber. That doesn't seem as safe to me as Condition 1."

Yep. That's how single action guns work. Guns are dangerous. Learning to handle them safely is paramount. You can practice decocking just like you can practice carrying condition 1-with an empty gun.

I find it interesting that this is such a foreign concept, yet I see people nonchalantly using decockers and hammer blocks to lower hammers in D/A guns. I have seen those hammer blocks break in half.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

Yep. That's how single action guns work.

I'm well aware of how single action guns work. The first handgun I ever bought was a 1911, and I carried it in Condition One. My point is that there's no need to ever pull the trigger with a loaded chamber: Condition One is plenty safe with a 1911 and faster to get into action.

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

I find it interesting that this is such a foreign concept

The only concept that's foreign to me is why anyone would carry a 1911 in Condition Two.