Do you have to fight?

[tomwalshco]

"....and later no-billed by the grand jury."

What the heck does that mean??

[Double Naught Spy]

No-billed is a failure to indict. I believe that is the correct terminology, but if not, then it just means that they will not give the case to the DA to prosecute because they do not believe their is sufficient evidence to prosecute. Charges are dropped.

[Dwight55]

It would be a pretty strange place (and at 66 I've been in some strange places) that did not offer either another exit, . . . or weapons at hand.

I would first pull out my cell phone, . . . and I would do 911, . . . knowing that if the call gets connected, . . . someone will come. I don't have to talk, . . . plead or anything, . . . boys in blue are supposed to be on the way.

Next thought is "where is exit stage left?". Take it if you can get it.

Next thought (assuming no exit), . . . "what is available that will make a defensive shield or an offensive weapon?" Chair, . . . bottle, . . . pan, . . . anything available?

Last thought: I'm 66, . . . got a heart condition, . . . I've done all I can do, . . . this dude is going to back down, . . . or fall down: his choice, . . . but again, . . . my last choice, . . . my last resort, . . . I''m not taking a beat down from anybody, . . . anytime, . . . anywhere that I can stop, . . . and if it takes 230 grain lead to stop it, . . . I'll call a lawyer and we'll just have to work it out.

May God bless,
Dwight

[B.N.Real]

Dwight,by the time you go through all that,the bad guy will have killed you.

You need to understand you have the right to live free of fear of people who refuse to do the right things in society.

A sorry piece of 'stuff' decides to crush your skull because he sees an old man in front of him and he thinks he can crush your skull just for fun-needs a bullet sandwich to reconsider his course of action.

Humming and hawing while he closes in on you guarantees you will either be killed or permanently injured for the rest of your life.

Throw that phone at his face as you draw your handgun to fire it.

***As far as shooting an unarmed man-how do I know this guy is'nt some bad hombre that has a list of assault offenses a mile long and just likes to beat up on old men for a kick.

If he's got me cornered and he's closing-he will get a real close up look at a gun barrel-with a single statement .

"You got one second to get the xxxx out of my way."

I won't give him the chance to jump me either.

I've lived a supremely odd life where at some times I never thought 'd make it to twenty years old much less the 51 I am now.

I have no intention of letting some idiot force me to live the rest of my life in a home somewhere becuase he crushed in my skull becuase I was "trying to give him a chnace to change his mind becuase WE WERE EVENLY MATCHED."

When I am out on the street and someone-ANYONE-vectors towards me to step in my way-I already consider myself woefully undermatched to that threat.

Even if that person is a 12 year old kid with his hand in his jacket pocket.

Why?

Because that person KNOWS what he is capable of and what he is trying to do.

I have no idea what this person is capable of or why they have suddenly decided to pick me out of a crowd of people on the street to start an issue with.

Certainly ---I will never simply draw my weapon and start spraying bullets.

In fact,simply drawing your weapon without there being a very real threat is you getting arrested.

But I will certainly have my hand on my firearm ready to use it if necessary.

I will also be changing my direction to try and see if that person continues to vector directly at me.

That person may only be asking for a light or directions but you never know.

As I am getting old and looking really old now-I definitely see the change in some young people's attitudes about me and my physical ability to be a threat to them.

Twenty five years ago,when my dad was alive and as old looking as I am now,I convinced him to buy a cheap Charter Arms 38 special and two years after that ,he defended his life against a truck with three people that were ,at 2:00 in the morning, trying to run him off the road to rob him.

The North Carolina backroads where my dad grew up,you get pulled out of your car at 2;00 in the morning,you could be dead until the sun comes up before someone finds you.

So don't tell me about all the phone calls you'd make and all the time you'll have to think about what you'd do.

Because when it happens,like my dad,who was a Korean war vet,one crazy North Carolina country boy and who drove away from that truck at a hundred miles per hour for five miles before they caught up with him,you are just going to be trying to stay alive.

[Carter]

My example is that a BG wants to fight you but you decline and try to leave. But the BG has you trapped with no escape. The BG has no weapons except fists. Can you draw and shoot if the BG won’t move out of your way so you can leave or do you have to fight?

Nope, not unless he's one big dude and I feel his intent is to kill me. Now if I get hit and start going fuzzy and he's not stopping, thats a different story.

These what-if-scenario's have a million different outcomes. Generally speaking though, if a person is unarmed and there isn't lethal force of some sort present, one can not draw his weapon in SD.

Getting in to a fist fight with a CCW is not a smart idea either. In NC fighting is called affray, and its a crime. Therefore, you would have just committed a crime with a firearm in your possession. Granted, once you go to court and if you're able to prove he wouldn't let you leave you may get your gun back and all charges dropped, but you still probably are gonna have gone through a lot of trouble.

Best advice, get away any way you can, call the police, etc.

[Double Naught Spy]

My example is that a BG wants to fight you but you decline and try to leave. But the BG has you trapped with no escape.

So are you trapped indoors?

Scorch said...

The bad guy is armed, he has fists, and people have been hospitalized and beaten to death before by a man using just his fists

.

By this logic, the aggressor would also be armed with elbows, knees, feet, head, and biohazards (saliva, blood).

In a previous thread, (http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...light=disarmed) you noted...

That's what toppled the Shah. He disarmed his enemies, but forgot he could not disarm his army. When the populace revolted and he sicced the army on 'em, the army said no, and since we have the guns you gotta go.

When you say the shah disarmed his enemies do you mean that he cut body parts off their bodies, particularly those parts that could be used to cause harm? You noted that he didn't disarm his military that eventually turned on him successfully because they had guns.

I would first pull out my cell phone, . . . and I would do 911, . . . knowing that if the call gets connected, . . . someone will come. I don't have to talk, . . . plead or anything, . . . boys in blue are supposed to be on the way.

The problem with using cell phones in this situation is that 911 might not have the ability to know your specific location or to know it in a timely manner. The boys in blue may not be coming for quite a while or might not actually arrive at your particular location.
http://www.digitallanding.com/Phone/...rticle_id/4387

In other words, calling 911 maybe should not be high priority given that you need to protect yourself now, in real time.

You need to understand you have the right to live free of fear of people who refuse to do the right things in society.

Sure you have the right to live free of fear, but that does not mean lethal force is warranted or legal.

Humming and hawing while he closes in on you guarantees you will either be killed or permanently injured for the rest of your life.

No it does not guarantee that you will be killed or permanently injured. These sorts of fights happen every day without the victim being killed or permanently injured.

[Rufus T Firefly]

Read your local laws. Read news stories on how similar cases are handled. Talk to your local police dept. Then, when faced with making a decision ask yourself, "what would a cop do here?" Find out what caliber and brand of ammo they use. Use it. A lawyer could brand you a renegade for using super corner turning destroyer ammo.

[JohnKSa]

Can you draw and shoot if the BG won’t move out of your way so you can leave or do you have to fight?

Absolutely not. Deadly force should not be considered in this situation as it is stated.

As long as it remains a standoff there is no justification for use of deadly force. If possible you should ask someone to call the police or call 911 yourself if you can.

However, if the BG attacks you or attempts to attack you then the situation is very different and you might very well be justified in defending yourself by shooting him depending on the circumstances of the situation (e.g. disparity of force). However you are not justified in shooting just to escape the situation in the absence of actual violence or attempted violence.

In some areas you might be legally justified in drawing your gun but NOT shooting to demonstrate to the BG that it might be in his best interest not to attack you.

TX law allows a person to draw a gun to create the apprehension that deadly force might be used. That can be done legally when force (just plain force, not deadly force) is justified--in other words, the legal justification for pulling a gun is more lenient than the legal justification for actually firing the gun.

HOWEVER, it's not clearly spelled out in TX law that a standoff such as the situation you describe would justify the use of force so you might not even be justified in pulling your firearm unless it became obvious that an attack was imminent.

[rifleman8]

I'm not old enough to carry a handgun (I'm 19), but this thread caught my eye. A note I would like to make is that there are no more fair fights. "Fistfights" are non existent, everyone seems to carry or implement some sort of weapon nowadays. A kid I know was stabbed, and bled out, during what started as a fistfight, which goes to show you never know what you are up against. I avoid fights at all costs, even though I train in Kenpo, and so should you. In this situation, I would try to defuse it, and if that didn't work, leave. Running is often the best defense, it doesn't matter what others think of you so long as you survive. But I would not think shooting is justifiable in this situation.

[sirsloop]

Fists kill people every day. If the guy was really serious and there was I was cornered, I'd draw and hope the dude backs up so I don't have to shoot him.

[dec41971]

You really need to ask this? Gun is a weapon of last resort self defense and that should mean something no matter where you stand on 2A. Well fact it it will depend on what a DA thinks, it will depend on what 12 of your peers think.

I am all for 2A but I am against callous or anything that might be construed as such in taking a human life. Just being honest, if I am on that July and I have any doubt, you wont like to hear what I'd vote for. Just think about that. At least I am honest to say so, and I expect the same to apply to me too.

You must understand that if a guy is dead and you are not, by nature people feel since he can't talk for himself, they have to stand up for him. Regardless of what anyone says the simple fact is for practical purposes, the burden of proof is on you. I wouldn't want to be in that position. I'd much prefer to take a few punches to that.

I like sirsloop's response. I'd draw if I really believe death or grievous harm was possible. I'm only going to pull that trigger if I have absolutely no other option and the draw didn't stop him cold.

[sirsloop]

Yeah... I mean do you really want to get in a fist fight while wearing a pistol?? That's absurd... might as well give the dude your pistol. I was once told by someone that has been carrying daily for a very long time that if you draw on someone you had better be 100% ready to use it without hesitation. Having said that if you draw on someone and can prevent a serious conflict without shooting its a big win. You gotta be crazy to want to shoot somebody...

[bighead46]

I live in Florida which was a really pro-gun state but things are changing. That said- we have a "punch in the nose" aspect they tell you when you get a concealed weapons license. The gist is- you cannot kill a guy if all he is going to do is punch you in the nose- your life has to be actually threatened. Since we are a pretty conservative state I would figure other states are even more adamant about not shooting someone in such a situation.

[threegun]

The gist is- you cannot kill a guy if all he is going to do is punch you in the nose- your life has to be actually threatened. Since we are a pretty conservative state I would figure other states are even more adamant about not shooting someone in such a situation.

I'm not a very big fellow however I posses extreme punching power in both hands. Absorbing a punch should not be an option for any one armed. You will not get a shot off.

Allowing someone to get close enough to hit you, who has announced intent to beat you, is a serious tactical error that will cost you at minimum a beating. Pulling on them to prevent this is tactically responsible. If they continue to advance it is much easier to articulate that you were in fear of death or grave bodily injury. Why else would a man advance on an armed person risking death if not to give such?

[tomwalshco]

So I guess you have to wait until your 9 yr old daughter or granddaughter gets it in the face, or maybe your 65 yr old wife or mother?

[Puntmefar]

well that depends on alot of things. 99.9% of the time its no you [B]CAN NOT[B] draw or shoot over a fist fight. There is a few situations depending on the state you are in. For example Ky. where I live, gives you the right to use deadly force if you have reasonable fear you will be raped as long as the attacker has the means and you beleive they have the intent to do so. Also you have the right to use deadly force if you are in fear of being maimed or are at risk of serious personal injury eg...... beaten into a comma, loss of limb ect. There is no mention of the attacker having to be armed in those situations. However if its a fist fight and nothing more do you want to go to bed at night knowing you almost shot some one or worse you did shoot some one over a common brawl. And if you did draw what bed would you sleep in that night yours or the county jail's? I'd say learn to fight without a gun you can allways have the gun as a LAST resort to protect your life not your pride.

[Double Naught Spy]

Absorbing a punch should not be an option for any one armed. You will not get a shot off.

Well gee, being punched should not be an option whether you are armed or not, LOL. About not getting a shot off, that is a mighty definitive statement. So what you are saying is that it isn't possible to be punched and then to be able to shoot a gun? Reality has this happening with considerable frequency compared to your statement that it won't happen.

This guy won a fist fight and was killed by the guy he defeated.
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/201...-edison-austin

Here is an example of a guy who drew his gun after being beaten by a larger opponent and ended up in jail. He would have been able to shoot despite having been hit.
http://www.defendu.com/gun_fistfight.htm

[BGutzman]

A fight that does not endanger your life or result grevious bodily harm (depending on the laws of your state, county, etc.) would Not IMHO rise to the level where drawing your weapon would be legal.

Hopefully you or someone present would call law enforcement and the situation would come to a end without an altercation. If not hopefully you have some legal and less than lethal alternative. I stongly recommend against a physical confrontation while you are armed with a firearm because there is no guarntee that you are going to keep control of your weapon nor that the level of violence by the agressor wont rise to the level where the law may permit you do defend yourself legally.

These are just my thoughts but let me highly suggest you see a attorney for a "legally sound answer".

Lastly if I felt I was at some point going to be in this situation I would stop going to whatever place this might happen as there are too many place to go to have fun and who needs trouble on this level.

[threegun]

However if its a fist fight and nothing more do you want to go to bed at night knowing you almost shot some one or worse you did shoot some one over a common brawl.

A common brawl requires two willing parties. I don't want to brawl. I simply want to be left alone and unharmed. I have a right NOT to be beaten by someone. If someone attempts to force a brawl they will be told no thanks. Then they will be told the consequences should they attempt to initiate unwelcome harm. Then they will either comply or face said consequences.

I simply want to prevent injury to myself. Just because the bad guy refuses to comply doesn't mean I have to accept the beating.

[TeamSinglestack]

It is going to depend on both statute law and common (case) law in the jurisdiction.

This.

Some states justify the threat of deadly force in situations where force would be lawful to stop a threat, and should a threat ignore the warning and continue to be a threat, deadly force would be justified. Note that "force" and "deadly force" are recognized to be two completely different things.

These laws are written this way so that citizens can lawfully defend themselves from unarmed individuals they couldn't possibly physically overcome due to individual physical limitations / handicaps.

To think you are required to be threatened with a deadly weapon, or subject yourself to a potentially lethal beating, prior to lawfully using deadly force to defend yourself is simply ridiculous.

Your jurisdiction may vary, so know your laws....

[JROCK]

A lot of it comes down to how well you can articulate that you felt you were in serious danger. You can sometimes tell when a fight will just be a fight, but if you feel like this guy isn't looking to just beat you up and then walk away, you also have to consider that after he beats you down, he now has a gun. Who knows how he'll use that gun. In the end, it's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6

[threegun]

Well gee, being punched should not be an option whether you are armed or not, LOL. About not getting a shot off, that is a mighty definitive statement. So what you are saying is that it isn't possible to be punched and then to be able to shoot a gun? Reality has this happening with considerable frequency compared to your statement that it won't happen.

If I have bad intentions for you and you allow me to get a clean punch on you I don't think you will be pulling and if you do I will be on top of you and not rocked.

You are correct however but my statement was meant in the sense that odds go way down for you with a bad guy on top of you and you are stunned. Pulling at this point could get you killed as easily as it saves you. In some case it will get you killed faster to pull.

Here in the shop I work we have tried getting our guns from waist carry while a coworker tried to take it. Most of the time the taker won. This is without the physical head trauma of a vicious punch.

[Puntmefar]

threegun Quote:
However if its a fist fight and nothing more do you want to go to bed at night knowing you almost shot some one or worse you did shoot some one over a common brawl.

A common brawl requires two willing parties. I don't want to brawl. I simply want to be left alone and unharmed. I have a right NOT to be beaten by someone. If someone attempts to force a brawl they will be told no thanks. Then they will be told the consequences should they attempt to initiate unwelcome harm. Then they will either comply or face said consequences.

I simply want to prevent injury to myself. Just because the bad guy refuses to comply doesn't mean I have to accept the beating.

I do agree with you however a fist fight dos not justify deadly force. I wouldnt pretend to expext any one to just take the beating. But I would hope we have the self controll and dicipline to handle it as a fist fight not a gun fight and in the end accept the fact you might be the one with the beating but not with out a fight. Our guns should be to protect our life we can not take the mind set of a school yard kid ...... who has the bigger stick. We have to accept some times in life we are on the loosing end of a fight and thats just life. Im not tryin to say you are acting like a child please dont misunderstand.

[sirsloop]

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/201...s_attacke.html

CASE IN POINT.

Dude is walking around his development with his family, three punks walk up, beats the father to death while the rest of the family escapes. No motive. This happened 10 minutes from my house in a state where you are not allowed to carry a concealed weapon. Something is wrong here.

If that gentleman had a CCW and was carrying, he would be alive today and his family would have a father to come home to at night. Instead, they can visit his grave.

[JohnKSa]

Ok, folks, let's try to stick to scenarios that are roughly comparable to what the OP describes.

A standoff where a single person won't let you leave because you won't fight is not remotely similar to being violently attacked by multiple persons.