Friend pulled gun on two guys.

[jcoiii]

BC, have to correct one thing. You don't "have to KNOW" your life is in danger, you have to BELIEVE it. I would have probably believed that these two were planning on attacking me and robbing me, perhaps more. I'm sure not going to let them get close enough for me to hand them money. But, if you believe differently, by all means, do what you think is right. (no sarcasm intended there)

[XavierBreath]

They found his gun while beatting him up and then put him in the trunk of his car. An hour later, they let him out and told him to run while they emptied his gun at him!!! He was shot and had a few broken bones but was alive.

Thanks AT. I'm glad your friend survived. That is why you don't get into a fist fight with two punks when you are carrying a gun. A gun and no willingness to use it can be very dangerous.

I'm not advocating brandishing, but doggone it, you have to be able to draw the gun to use it. How long are ya gonna wait?

[joab]

So where was this guy going to retreat to.

His broken down car in what was probably not a great neighbor hood? (there's usually a good reason that malls are abandoned)

Was he then supposed to hunker down in his car and wait for the police to happen by, before the BGs friends did?, If he even made it back to his car.

20 feet is not the magical DMZ the protects you from injury or prosecution.
If you wait till they're that close to decide to act, you are already behind the eight ball.

Remember Bernard Goetz was only asked if he had change for a video game

[Acorn]

It's an old cliche, "Better judged by twelve than carried by six".

[k_dawg]

Cougar - I will get 20 feet from you - you try drawing and I bet I reach you before you clear the holster - esp. if I am already moving - after that it is TOO LATE for you. .

Your bet is met. But only if I'm allowed real bullets in my gun :-)
oh, and you sign a waiver.. ;-)

[k_dawg]

Gotta love Florida

776.031 ... However, the person is justified in the use of deadly force only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony.

776.08 Forcible felony.--"Forcible felony" means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; car-jacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.

You may use deadly force if you reasonably believe you are about to be imminently robbed or burglarized, and that it will prevent said prevent said crime.

Notice no need for a belief of "deadly force" used against you. Just threat of "physical force" or "violence".

[DesertRat]

In Arizona, the intended victim would have been perfectly within his rights to threaten to use deadly force. If they continued to advance, he would have been justified in shooting both of them (that is not to say that he wouldn't be arrested or even charged; however, when the law is applied to the facts, the likely outcome would be a justifiable homicide.

In Arizona the standard for employing deadly force is a four-pronged test:

1. That there be an immediate threat...
2. Of death or grave bodily harm...
3. To yourself or another person...
4. Coupled with the means of carrying it out.

This four pronged test is actually one sentence:

That there be an immediate threat of death or grave bodily harm to yourself or another person coupled with the means of carrying it out.

If all four of these conditions are met in the scenario desribed and the victim reasonably believes all four of the above apply then it is justified.

Arizona law does not require that the perpetrator have a weapon, only that the perpetrator have the means of causing immediate death or grave bodily harm - this includes the use of one's fists.

[Wraith]

It is sad that in this day and age we have to go over the legalities of this situation. I support what he did; I would have done the same.

[USP45usp]

Here in Eugene we had a college student die when he was struck with one blow from a human fist.

I think that your friend did right. I would though have him consider buying a cheap TracPhone or some other pre-paid cell service (no contracts, you buy your minutes).

As was mentioned, all the older cell phones have 911 capability. But in this situation, at the beginning, calling 911 for a broken down car wouldn't have been dealt well with the dispatcher (they, the LEO's, are not there to be AAA). It would have been too late to try to use it during the confrontation.

I know that technology is expensive (cell phones) but it's best to have multiple tools in your self defense tool box then just try to rely on only one.

Wayne

[rallyhound]

In MN, being strongarmed (mugged) is not grounds for pulling your weap.


I disagree.
If you are in danger for your life or of great bodily injury is what the law basically says in MN

[ScoutinStAugustine]

Of course he was justified. What is he gonna do?? Tell the bad guys ..."it's ok to mug me, just don't kill me or I'll have to pull my gun." It sounds like some people have no street experience other than what they see every night on COPS. But when they ran off, the first thing he should do is use that pay phone to call your local LEO and make a detailed report of what happened, then get outta there, maybe even vice versa.

[OF]

Regardless of what the law says, IMO you would have to be insane to keep your gun hidden in a situation like that.

Two larger men, already threatening you start to manuver into position for attack? What should you do? Turn and run, only to be tapped on the shoulder and, what, spoken harshly to?

Maybe if he'd had his 'pocket law' book on him and a cell phone he could have asked them to hold on a minute while he called his lawyer to figure out if their actions met the standard for displaying his firearm in this locale.

I know! maybe they were going to start a debate on their proposition that he give them $10 and he could have just won the argument and gotten away. Maybe it was just a big game! "Give us the $10 and we'll let you go....no really." Wow, that sounds like a great deal! I mean, my life is worth more than $10, what a bargain. OK, Mr. Hulking Criminal and his Wingman Buddy, here's my 10-spot. Do I get to make my call now? Pretty please? Why did you grab my arm? Hey, where's your friend?

Check the implied contract on this one, jack: give it up or else - - you get to spin the real Wheel of Fortune to figure out what the 'else' is...hope it comes up roses!

Should he have just stood there like a deer in the headlights and waited for his fate to arrive? One place you don't want to find yourself is being loaded into the ambulance in a cervical collar with IV's sticking out of your arms, squinting out through your one good remaining eye, and have the EMT's and cops find your gun still in its holster. Talk about embarassing... But hey, I'm sure your wife and kids will take solace in the knowledge that you didn't break the law while they sell the house to pay the physical therapy bills and look for new jobs during your recovery and subsequent bankruptcy!

All this like the demand for money is some kind of contractual venture you're entering into with these upstanding urban businessmen - you hold up your end and they'll hold up theirs. What if they only wanted to "inflict some pain"? Maybe that wouldn't be worth the full $10...I mean if it was like a bad bruise or something I might only pay $5 to avoid that. Do they have a menu I can look at? I'll take the ruptured spleen and crushed ribs for $50, garcon. (psst...you know, the hardest part, for me anyway, about a situation like this is trying to figure out how much to tip these people...I should really get one of those 'mugger tip cards' you can keep in your wallet...)

We're not even talking about shooting these entrepreneurs (which, without a weapon in sight or some, what do cops call it? 'furtive movement'? I'd think is a real judgement call - however in my book I'd call that move morally defensible, maybe even the prudent thing to do, but likely illegal), we're not even talking about pointing the gun at them, just displaying it! How this is even up for discussion is a major head scratcher.

Frankly, as soon as they started moving in his direction and made it clear they were there to rob him, it should have been the steady rearward-ho shuffle, barking commands with the gun out in the finger-off-the-trigger low ready faster than you can say "Tueller". If they didn't stop like cartoon characters in concrete you move to step two: SCREAM the commands and put together a finger-off-the-trigger sight picture on the big one.

Everyone knows where it goes from there. The one place it doesn't go is with a dead good guy, and a good guy walking away unharmed is a result that keeps balance in the universe. A good guy walking away from a dead bad guy (or a couple of them) is like a major win for said universe.

[Dwight55]

Sorry, Beretta Cougar, . . . you are way off base. The guy did it right, . . . the fact that he wasn't mugged or killed proved it.

May God bless,
Dwight

[Nimitz87]

Bcougar you living in Florida should be aware of the new laws we have and the luxury of not retreating...

and as someone metioned the tueller drill....an asaliant armed with a knife or club can cover 21 feet in a little over a second...this is an average indivual if i remeber correctly...can you draw, aim and fire in a little over a second? espically on TWO targets?

he shouldn't have to retreat. im sorry but i disagree that your gun is your "last ditch" effort...is he suppose to wait for the badies to attack and THEN do something and risk getting his weapon taken and used against him?

what he did is perfectly legal in the state of Florida. from the cops i associate with would not of had a problem with the man's behavior.

just my .2 i would have drawn given the situation as i am seeing it...and i probably would have drawn as soon as i saw BG #2 try to flank me...obviously i wouldnt have shot them...unless they still came at me.

got to love Florida's gun laws...one state has it right

Chad

[k_dawg]

I have pulled my concealed firearm three times. Two times, merely drawing eliminated the threat.

[Edison Carter]

I've done the Tueller drill and seen it.

One opponant:
10 yards and you have a chance.
7 yards and you'll get hammered, even if you manage to draw.
5 yards and your teeth are saying hello to mother Earth.

I know people who will gladly demonstrate the Tueller drill for you and will put up $1000 to match yours. You think you are so good that you can nail TWO men and one has you flanked?!

Oh this would be fun. I'll kick in $500. Just let me set up a video and make some popcorn, none for you, you'll be eating the airsoft gun.

"Just walk away".....
Those punks were not in the business of charging a fee for a phone, they were in the business of victimization. They don't just let customers "walk away" because they aren't in the mood to be mugged.

Stop talking silly.

EC

[joab]

One opponant:
10 yards and you have a chance.
7 yards and you'll get hammered, even if you manage to draw.
5 yards and your teeth are saying hello to mother Earth.

More support for Xavier's theory on the shrouded J-frame

[DesertRat]

Oh, one other thing, there are 10 events (in AZ, again) under which a victim / witness may employ deadly force w/o any warning whatsoever for the purposes of preventing the following crimes (thank God I live in AZ):

1. Arson of an Occupied Structure. - Sec 13-1704
2. First or Second Degree Burglary. - Sec 13-1507
3. Kidnapping. - Sec 13-1304
4. Manslaughter. - Sec 13-1103
5. First or Second Degree Murder. - Sec 13-1104
6. Sexual Conduct w/ a Minor. - Sec 13-1405
7. Sexual Assault. - Sec 13-1406
8. Child Molestation. - Sec 13-1410
9. Armed Robbery. - Sec 13-1904
10. Aggravated Assault. - Sec 13-1204

References:

Title 13, Arizona Revised Statutes.
Arizona Gunowners Guide, Alan Korwin, Bloomfield Press, C-1994 (time to get latst revision and study changes, if any), page 76.

[Mikkel]

Im not going to wait untill the badguys are within arms reach of me. Then it would be too late esp since its two guys.

[BerettaCougar]

I know the new laws of Florida, but I will not abuse them, I wont retreat if i can't, I will retreat if i can, will never retreat in my home/boat/car, human life is worth more to me I guess, even the life of my enemy..

I'm happy that the friend made it home safe... -1 for the bad guys.

I personally would of waited for the next move, hopefully that works for me when the time comes, (hopefully it doesnt).

[Superhornet]

I spent 33 years in the military. I have seen the evil that men do...your friend did the right thing, regardless of what all the nay sayers think. I have carried a CW for more than 30 years. No one knew I ever had it. Hammerless 38 in right front pocket. Backup 22 D-100 High Standard in ankle rig. Your friend showed much more restaint than I would have. The first time I heard "it will cost you $10 dollars to use the phone, the situation has already reached 90% of a lethal encounter. The other 10% is what the perps decide. If they tried to flank me, the encounter has reached the critical stage.....No self respecting honest citizen is going to tell you that it will cost you to use the phone.....Have you ever seen anyone who was mugged and then stomped into the ground ?? Not a pretty sight. Dark, dead end street ?? No one around ?? Me or them?? Guess who is not going to eat breakfast....

[OF]

When you say 'retreat', do you mean you would have turned your back to them? At 20 ft.?

[shield20]

K_Dawg-

YOU sign the wavier too, Ok? And if I slap you before you draw & fire, then I get to use your gun on you, ok?
(sheesh - I hope I haven't gotten much slower the last few years since we did this drill at the PD! PLUS you've got REAL real-world experience - hmmm..let me think about this some more! )

In general...
Seriously - this story is a good example of the type of split-second decisions we who carry may all be confronted with at any time. We used to cover similiar scenarios in fire-arm training sessions - how fast any situation can turn deadly (and from what distances). Carrying concealed usually puts us behind the eightball as it is, because we have to REact. How long is too long to do SOMETHING proactive? As someone mentioned above - at what point did showing 2 BGs who ARE threatening you that you are armed become illegal? And at what point in YOUR training did you get confident enough to think you can out-draw...from a weapon-CONCEALED position...and fire accurate enough to take out 2 already-charging bad guys, coming in different directions from as close as 20 FEET?

Ayoob pointed out in The Gravest Extreme about keeping $5 folded up in a matchbook (as a civilian) to toss to BGs in a situation just like this - as $5 (or $10 - with inflation?) is ALOT cheaper then the aftermaths of even a good shoot. Possible to be so prepared and see if the sharks take the free meal and leave then the area - but in THIS situation? It was diffused perfectly (where WAS the good guy going to retreat to?) esp. if he reported it afterwards.

side-note: anyone see Collateral with Tom Cruise? The scene when he takes on the 2 armed BGs in the ally? Great stuff!

[eeyore_11]

"Just walk away".....
Those punks were not in the business of charging a fee for a phone, they were in the business of victimization. They don't just let customers "walk away" because they aren't in the mood to be mugged.

Stop talking silly.


Those punks obviously believe that their genetic swelling is a gift that allows them to forgo a real job in order live the easy live of intimidating for money. Since they hate real work, they're not going to put much effort into anything that they don't consider fun. Mashing your face in might be fun, but that'll only happen if you're within reach. They might laugh when you run away, but they're not going to run after someone who may not have more than 35 cents on them.

My previous point was that his friend screwed up because he ignored warning signs that, had they been acted on, could have been handled (perhaps less than gracefully) without drawing. If I had ignored those warnings too, I would probably have had hand on gun when the bullies came within 7-10 yards, and gun probably would have cleared leather when they split more than 90 degrees apart.

But then what?

At worst, their armed cohort(s) light me up from whichever direction I'm not looking.

Slightly less bad, a witness or cop sees me barking commands with gun drawn on two innocent and unarmed locals that just wanted to use the phone. I look like a paranoid/vigilante who's going to jail.

Better, I display a purely defensive posture by deliberately retreating the entire time, making it obvious my intent is to only break contact. Hopefully nobody will try to stop me, thinking I have just committed an armed robbery.


Thankfully, we know that the bullies left as soon as the gun was drawn. If that hadn't been the case and you had to shoot, you would then have to ask yourself if you had done everything you could have legally and morally to prevent that outcome. The legal bills and nightmares are going to suck.

[XavierBreath]

Dead people don't worry whether it would have been legal to draw their gun.