Dispensing, Measuring, & Weighing Charges

300magman · October 22, 2010, 08:21 AM

I'm new to reloading and have just picked out most of my equipment, but I'm having trouble deciding what to use to dispense, measure, and weigh my charges.
I want a fast, simple, and accurate solution and just don't have the experience to know what will do the job for me.

Is something like the RCBS 1500 Chargemaster Combo the best way to go for ease of use and efficiency or would I be better off with some other method of dispensing powder?

mehavey · October 22, 2010, 11:51 AM

Get [and always keep] an inexpensive balance beam for reference.
But for for real loading efficiency/precision the 1500 can't be beat.

Brian Pfleuger · October 22, 2010, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 300magman

Is something like the RCBS 1500 Chargemaster Combo the best way to go for ease of use and efficiency or would I be better off with some other method of dispensing powder?

Yes.

Load for a month or two without it, then get one.

It'll be like the heavens open, a light shines down and the angels are singing a heavenly chorus.

Seriously.

Yes.

4runnerman · October 22, 2010, 12:18 PM

it is one of the important pcs of reloading.

300magman · October 22, 2010, 01:19 PM

Sounds like you guys really like the RCBS combo. Not the cheapest way to go, but it sounds like its worth a shot.

chiefr · October 22, 2010, 01:29 PM

I have a balance beam, a digital scale, and an auto measurer. All vary by fractions of a grain to one full grain at the heavier weights approaching 500 grains or more.
I always have been a great admirer of Ronald Reagan and take "Trust but verify" to heart. I bought a Lyman scale weight check set and use it regularily.

Brian Pfleuger · October 22, 2010, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Sounds like you guys really like the RCBS combo. Not the cheapest way to go, but it sounds like its worth a shot.

They have a $50 rebate....

http://www.rcbs.com/pdf/RC184_RCBSCoupon.pdf

4runnerman · October 22, 2010, 02:05 PM

I just have a about 4 inch round digital scale with a dish.Accurate

to 100th of a grain. slow and tedious,but it works for me. Spoon to with in 1 gr and trickel charge the rest of the way

mikld · October 22, 2010, 02:08 PM

I would suggest a good beam scale (so much depends on personal preference you'll get many recommendations here) and an inexpensive powder measure to begin with. A powder dribbler is useful too. All powder meaures vary in accuracy depending on which powder is being measured, some powders meter easily and some will "bridge" and not drop consistantly. Set your powder measure a little below (1/2 a grain) and "trickle up" with the powder trickler to the exact load. I feel it's better to begin with basic tools and equipment before high tech digital units to learn the theories behind each loading step. (Yep, I think it's better to learn to drive a car with standard transmission rather than an auto. trans...)

Brian Pfleuger · October 22, 2010, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikld

I feel it's better to begin with basic tools and equipment before high tech digital units to learn the theories behind each loading step. (Yep, I think it's better to learn to drive a car with standard transmission rather than an auto. trans...)

I can't see how a scale that weighs charges for you has any effect on your understanding the "theory". Nor do I see how weighing a charge yourself has any effect on your understanding. The theory is, "Put too much in and you might blow up your gun." How that "too much" gets weighed is irrelevant.

The difference is, can you have a charge ready virtually the instant that you need it, or do you have to stop and prepare it yourself.

Doing it yourself not only wastes time but is much more likely to be wrong.

I also don't understand the need for a balance beam scale. Yes, if the 1500 craps out on you then it might be nice to have backup but for "checking" the 1500, well, it comes with check weights. Besides, you've probably got literally hundreds of bullets available. Weigh a few things. Weigh the check weights. It's either right or it isn't. A balance beam scale is irrelevant.

brickeyee · October 22, 2010, 03:34 PM

Quote:

The theory is, "Put too much in and you might blow up your gun." How that "too much" gets weighed is irrelevant.

So all scales are equal?

Quote:

I also don't understand the need for a balance beam scale. Yes, if the 1500 craps out on you then it might be nice to have backup but for "checking" the 1500, well, it comes with check weights. Besides, you've probably got literally hundreds of bullets available. Weigh a few things. Weigh the check weights. It's either right or it isn't. A balance beam scale is irrelevant.

The check weight with electronic scales are used to try and linearize and calibrate the load cell output.

Both of these can wander off during use from any number of factors, like temperature shifts in the electronics.

Even if gravity changed, a balance beam scale would continue to show correct readings.

Bullets are not accurate enough as an absolute reference for checking a scale.

If you have A BULLET that has been carefully weighted on a KNOWN ACCURATE scale it could serve as a check weight, but other than that the weight variation of even a few grains is 10 to 20 times the accuracy we are looking for (0.1 grain).

Electronic scales remain great for sorting things.

Balance beams are great for absolute accuracy.

wncchester · October 22, 2010, 03:53 PM

"Doing it yourself not only wastes time but is much more likely to be wrong."

Correctly doing it yourself is very little slower than a digital dumpster and, at least if I do it, there is a zero chance of being wrong.

I am certain every charge I drop, trickle and weigh is exactly what I want it to be; I do NOT have that faith in any electonic gimmick - and I used to repair and calibrate electronic test equipment in the space & defence programs. I had a good job for a long time simply because that stuff ain't dependable for long without routine professional attention. All of the much more costly professional lab, drug and grocery store digital scales have scheduled recertification contractors but NO reloader does and his scales are MUCH lower in price and quality.

The value of any auto dispenser varies with what you are going to do, the volume you plan to load and your personal tastes. Those who shoot high volumes of auto rifle loads really aren't likely to need a lot of precision in powder charging while those of us who shoot smaller volumes with more accuracy aren't likely to have any need for the "faster" auto systems.

Most reloads can easily be done quite well by simply dropping them from a consistanly operated manual measure. Given the proper powder choice and good procedure they can be plenty close for any uses, especially so for handgun loads. I never weight handgun charges after setting my measure correctly; I just look in the charged cases to see if the powder columes are consistant.

Manually and precisely measuring smallish quanities of varminting or long range target rifle ammo really doen't eat up a lot of my time. I can precisely and easily drop, weight (beam scale) and trickle up individual charges in maybe 10-12 seconds; even if the digital systems could cut that in half (they don't) it wouldn't make a lot of difference in the total time for a precisely done loading session. On the other hand, if I was quickly slapping together a pile of ammo for "spray and pray" practice, hand gun or rifle, I might could do it faster with an auto system. But that's NOT what I do!

So, everyone spends his money as he sees serving his needs. Those lucky people who get good digitals seem to love 'em. At least until they quit.

mikld · October 22, 2010, 03:58 PM

"I can't see how a scale that weighs charges for you has any effect on your understanding the "theory". Nor do I see how weighing a charge yourself has any effect on your understanding. The theory is, "Put too much in and you might blow up your gun." How that "too much" gets weighed is irrelevant.

The difference is, can you have a charge ready virtually the instant that you need it, or do you have to stop and prepare it yourself.

Doing it yourself not only wastes time but is much more likely to be wrong."

Theory: the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another. Merriam-Webster. Maybe as applied to gun powder; x grains of one powder produces xxx velocity and pressure where as the same amount of a different powder will result in lower (or higher) velocities. Or different powders have different physical charistics, flake vs. ball vs. extruded, and behave differently in a powder measure. Powder handling; ease or difficulty handling different powders, in regards to humidity and/or staric. Measurability of powders. Some of these "theories" apply to both digital scales and beam scales, and some only if the powder is handled as with a beam scale.

So, you're saying just dumping some powder on a digital scale and some numbers magically appear on a display is more meaningful for a beginner than weighing with a beam scale?

"Doing it yourself not only wastes time but is much more likely to be wrong" You are kidding, right? We could take that thought a bit further and take our powder to a certified lab and have each load premeasured for us by a certified lab technician...

4runnerman · October 22, 2010, 04:07 PM

Digital one load at at time is the only thing i will use. My scale small as it is. I have to watch when i exhale because it will change the weight on my scale sometimes by .05 gn. Beam scales are ok ,but i would put more faith in a high quality dig scale then them. I load for accuracy not bulk, Loading by hand does NOT leave more room for error.When my scale says 24.3 gn i stop,No error,no mistake it says 24.3.

TXGunNut · October 22, 2010, 10:20 PM

Used a BB scale for a several years, on my second PACT now. First one was fine, just got tired of buying batteries.

Digital scales are great for sorting bullets, cases and measuring small quantities of rifle loads. This time tomorrow I'll likely be the newest proud owner of an RCBS 1500 but don't look for my other scales in the "for sale" section of this forum, or anywhere. The 1500 will merely complement what I already have.

Jim243 · October 22, 2010, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Even if gravity changed, a balance beam scale would continue to show correct readings.

Is it a full moon tomorrow? (LOL) Buckeyee your right but it just hit me as funny. And gravity does change twice a day, that's how we get high and low tides.

Get the 1500, you will love it.

Jim

Bailey Boat · October 23, 2010, 06:30 AM

I can only imagine how the OP feels right about now......

Jim243 · October 23, 2010, 08:22 AM

Bailey

This is the second post from the OP on almost the same exact topic. I still have my balance beam scale and trickle charger but haven't used them for the past 5 years since getting the 1500. Even after getting the 1500 I would check it against the balance beam scale. That stopped after about 4 months of using the 1500.

But, if I should have a power failure I can still reload. So there is something good to say about learning how to use a balance beam.

When I first started reloading I double checked almost every load but after gaining confidence in my equipment I am still critical but not anal about it anymore.

There are a lot of good methods including dippers for measuring powder, it will just depend on each persons confidence in the method they are using.

Jim

brickeyee · October 23, 2010, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Get the 1500, you will love it.

Not fast enough to keep up with an RCBS 4x4 press.

I use volume for everything except long range varmint rounds, and still start with volume for those.

The only thing I routinely use the electronic scale for is sorting brass by weight.

mikld · October 23, 2010, 11:49 AM

oops!

mikld · October 23, 2010, 11:53 AM

I'm not anti-digital scale at all. I just think a balance beam is a better scale for beginners. With a BB the new reloader can see how a few granuals of powder affect the weight. A new reloader can visualize a charge weight by seeing the beam centering. Powder density is also easily seen (fluffy powders vs ball powders). But then again, my wife uses a computer and hasn't got the foggiest idea how it works; images appear on the screen as if by magic...

Jes my $.02

wncchester · October 23, 2010, 12:47 PM

"Beam scales are ok ,but i would put more faith in a high quality dig scale then them. I load for accuracy not bulk, .."

Sorry, but anyone who has more "faith" in a digital scale simply doesn't have a clue as to how they work and what their limits are. And no "reloading" branded digital scale is of "high quality", the more costly ones simply aren't quite as bad, on average, as the cheaper ones.

I agree a digital scale is vastly more convienent for weighting cases and bullets. But those aren't critical; no one will be hurt if they wander. Consistancy of powder charges IS critical and consistancy is the weak link in digital scales.

No (reloading grade) digital scale will be as consistant as any common beam scale. As mentioned above, gravity doesn't shift with temps or powder line changes! And there are VALID reasons digital scales only have two year warrantees... or less. My beam scale is as accurate and sensitive today as it was new in '65 and that's common, it's not unique at all. Such accuracy and dependability is typical of beams but that's NOT so for digital anythings.

Other than being an interesting intellectual excercise (for a short time), weighting cases and commercial bullets usually means nothing for practical accuracy. Nor does weighing powder charges more tightly than +/- .1 gr; even slight changes in ambient temp or wind will cause larger changes to the bullet's path even at long ranges than such tiny powder variations.

brickeyee · October 23, 2010, 02:15 PM

Quote:

weighting cases and commercial bullets usually means nothing for practical accuracy.

That depends on how accurate your rifle is.

I can hold 100 yard groups to 0.25 inches with carefully prepped cases and loads in a Kelbly built Panda in a tight neck .22-250 AI.

It works very well for long er range varmints.

Weighing Berger bullets is not worthwhile, but with lesser quality it pays.

DAVID NANCARROW · October 23, 2010, 02:42 PM

Ive been using the PACT digital scale and powder dispenser for about 6 years now, but Im a bit leery of the magical numbers which appear. Rather than dragging out the BB scale (the dust bunnies are playing with it I think), I get out my check weights to confirm what I think I see. Maybe thats a bit of overkill, but it makes me feel better.

wncchester · October 23, 2010, 03:56 PM

"I can hold 100 yard groups to 0.25 inches with carefully prepped cases and loads in a Kelbly built Panda in a tight neck .22-250 AI. It works very well for long er range varmints."

The question isn't what we might do with weighted components, the question is how much difference does it make. Few people - and rifles - would ever notice the difference no matter what groups they shoot, certainly not in factory rifles.

October 22, 2010, 08:21 AM	#1
300magman Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2008 Posts: 714	Dispensing, Measuring, & Weighing Charges I'm new to reloading and have just picked out most of my equipment, but I'm having trouble deciding what to use to dispense, measure, and weigh my charges. I want a fast, simple, and accurate solution and just don't have the experience to know what will do the job for me. Is something like the RCBS 1500 Chargemaster Combo the best way to go for ease of use and efficiency or would I be better off with some other method of dispensing powder?

October 22, 2010, 02:08 PM	#9
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	I would suggest a good beam scale (so much depends on personal preference you'll get many recommendations here) and an inexpensive powder measure to begin with. A powder dribbler is useful too. All powder meaures vary in accuracy depending on which powder is being measured, some powders meter easily and some will "bridge" and not drop consistantly. Set your powder measure a little below (1/2 a grain) and "trickle up" with the powder trickler to the exact load. I feel it's better to begin with basic tools and equipment before high tech digital units to learn the theories behind each loading step. (Yep, I think it's better to learn to drive a car with standard transmission rather than an auto. trans...) __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees... Last edited by mikld; October 22, 2010 at 03:50 PM.

October 22, 2010, 03:53 PM	#12
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	"Doing it yourself not only wastes time but is much more likely to be wrong." Correctly doing it yourself is very little slower than a digital dumpster and, at least if I do it, there is a zero chance of being wrong. I am certain every charge I drop, trickle and weigh is exactly what I want it to be; I do NOT have that faith in any electonic gimmick - and I used to repair and calibrate electronic test equipment in the space & defence programs. I had a good job for a long time simply because that stuff ain't dependable for long without routine professional attention. All of the much more costly professional lab, drug and grocery store digital scales have scheduled recertification contractors but NO reloader does and his scales are MUCH lower in price and quality. The value of any auto dispenser varies with what you are going to do, the volume you plan to load and your personal tastes. Those who shoot high volumes of auto rifle loads really aren't likely to need a lot of precision in powder charging while those of us who shoot smaller volumes with more accuracy aren't likely to have any need for the "faster" auto systems. Most reloads can easily be done quite well by simply dropping them from a consistanly operated manual measure. Given the proper powder choice and good procedure they can be plenty close for any uses, especially so for handgun loads. I never weight handgun charges after setting my measure correctly; I just look in the charged cases to see if the powder columes are consistant. Manually and precisely measuring smallish quanities of varminting or long range target rifle ammo really doen't eat up a lot of my time. I can precisely and easily drop, weight (beam scale) and trickle up individual charges in maybe 10-12 seconds; even if the digital systems could cut that in half (they don't) it wouldn't make a lot of difference in the total time for a precisely done loading session. On the other hand, if I was quickly slapping together a pile of ammo for "spray and pray" practice, hand gun or rifle, I might could do it faster with an auto system. But that's NOT what I do! So, everyone spends his money as he sees serving his needs. Those lucky people who get good digitals seem to love 'em. At least until they quit. Last edited by wncchester; October 22, 2010 at 04:11 PM.

October 22, 2010, 03:58 PM	#13
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	"I can't see how a scale that weighs charges for you has any effect on your understanding the "theory". Nor do I see how weighing a charge yourself has any effect on your understanding. The theory is, "Put too much in and you might blow up your gun." How that "too much" gets weighed is irrelevant. The difference is, can you have a charge ready virtually the instant that you need it, or do you have to stop and prepare it yourself. Doing it yourself not only wastes time but is much more likely to be wrong." Theory: the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another. Merriam-Webster. Maybe as applied to gun powder; x grains of one powder produces xxx velocity and pressure where as the same amount of a different powder will result in lower (or higher) velocities. Or different powders have different physical charistics, flake vs. ball vs. extruded, and behave differently in a powder measure. Powder handling; ease or difficulty handling different powders, in regards to humidity and/or staric. Measurability of powders. Some of these "theories" apply to both digital scales and beam scales, and some only if the powder is handled as with a beam scale. So, you're saying just dumping some powder on a digital scale and some numbers magically appear on a display is more meaningful for a beginner than weighing with a beam scale? "Doing it yourself not only wastes time but is much more likely to be wrong" You are kidding, right? We could take that thought a bit further and take our powder to a certified lab and have each load premeasured for us by a certified lab technician... __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees... Last edited by mikld; October 22, 2010 at 05:23 PM.

October 22, 2010, 10:20 PM	#15
TXGunNut Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: If you have to ask... Posts: 2,860	Used a BB scale for a several years, on my second PACT now. First one was fine, just got tired of buying batteries. Digital scales are great for sorting bullets, cases and measuring small quantities of rifle loads. This time tomorrow I'll likely be the newest proud owner of an RCBS 1500 but don't look for my other scales in the "for sale" section of this forum, or anywhere. The 1500 will merely complement what I already have. __________________ Life Member NRA, TSRA Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call Lonesome Dove My favorite recipes start out with a handful of used wheelweights.

October 22, 2010, 11:51 AM	#2
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,896	Get [and always keep] an inexpensive balance beam for reference. But for for real loading efficiency/precision the 1500 can't be beat.

October 22, 2010, 12:18 PM	#4
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	it is one of the important pcs of reloading.

October 22, 2010, 01:19 PM	#5
300magman Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2008 Posts: 714	Sounds like you guys really like the RCBS combo. Not the cheapest way to go, but it sounds like its worth a shot.

October 22, 2010, 01:29 PM	#6
chiefr Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2010 Location: AR Posts: 1,401	I have a balance beam, a digital scale, and an auto measurer. All vary by fractions of a grain to one full grain at the heavier weights approaching 500 grains or more. I always have been a great admirer of Ronald Reagan and take "Trust but verify" to heart. I bought a Lyman scale weight check set and use it regularily.

October 22, 2010, 02:05 PM	#8
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	I just have a about 4 inch round digital scale with a dish.Accurate to 100th of a grain. slow and tedious,but it works for me. Spoon to with in 1 gr and trickel charge the rest of the way

October 22, 2010, 04:07 PM	#14
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	Digital one load at at time is the only thing i will use. My scale small as it is. I have to watch when i exhale because it will change the weight on my scale sometimes by .05 gn. Beam scales are ok ,but i would put more faith in a high quality dig scale then them. I load for accuracy not bulk, Loading by hand does NOT leave more room for error.When my scale says 24.3 gn i stop,No error,no mistake it says 24.3.

October 23, 2010, 06:30 AM	#17
Bailey Boat Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2006 Location: NC Posts: 365	I can only imagine how the OP feels right about now......

October 23, 2010, 08:22 AM	#18
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	Bailey This is the second post from the OP on almost the same exact topic. I still have my balance beam scale and trickle charger but haven't used them for the past 5 years since getting the 1500. Even after getting the 1500 I would check it against the balance beam scale. That stopped after about 4 months of using the 1500. But, if I should have a power failure I can still reload. So there is something good to say about learning how to use a balance beam. When I first started reloading I double checked almost every load but after gaining confidence in my equipment I am still critical but not anal about it anymore. There are a lot of good methods including dippers for measuring powder, it will just depend on each persons confidence in the method they are using. Jim __________________ Si vis pacem, para bellum

October 23, 2010, 11:49 AM	#20
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	oops! __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

October 23, 2010, 11:53 AM	#21
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	I'm not anti-digital scale at all. I just think a balance beam is a better scale for beginners. With a BB the new reloader can see how a few granuals of powder affect the weight. A new reloader can visualize a charge weight by seeing the beam centering. Powder density is also easily seen (fluffy powders vs ball powders). But then again, my wife uses a computer and hasn't got the foggiest idea how it works; images appear on the screen as if by magic... Jes my $.02 __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

October 23, 2010, 12:47 PM	#22
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	"Beam scales are ok ,but i would put more faith in a high quality dig scale then them. I load for accuracy not bulk, .." Sorry, but anyone who has more "faith" in a digital scale simply doesn't have a clue as to how they work and what their limits are. And no "reloading" branded digital scale is of "high quality", the more costly ones simply aren't quite as bad, on average, as the cheaper ones. I agree a digital scale is vastly more convienent for weighting cases and bullets. But those aren't critical; no one will be hurt if they wander. Consistancy of powder charges IS critical and consistancy is the weak link in digital scales. No (reloading grade) digital scale will be as consistant as any common beam scale. As mentioned above, gravity doesn't shift with temps or powder line changes! And there are VALID reasons digital scales only have two year warrantees... or less. My beam scale is as accurate and sensitive today as it was new in '65 and that's common, it's not unique at all. Such accuracy and dependability is typical of beams but that's NOT so for digital anythings. Other than being an interesting intellectual excercise (for a short time), weighting cases and commercial bullets usually means nothing for practical accuracy. Nor does weighing powder charges more tightly than +/- .1 gr; even slight changes in ambient temp or wind will cause larger changes to the bullet's path even at long ranges than such tiny powder variations. Last edited by wncchester; October 23, 2010 at 12:54 PM.

October 23, 2010, 02:42 PM	#24
DAVID NANCARROW Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2000 Location: Wyoming Posts: 1,761	Ive been using the PACT digital scale and powder dispenser for about 6 years now, but Im a bit leery of the magical numbers which appear. Rather than dragging out the BB scale (the dust bunnies are playing with it I think), I get out my check weights to confirm what I think I see. Maybe thats a bit of overkill, but it makes me feel better.

October 23, 2010, 03:56 PM	#25
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	"I can hold 100 yard groups to 0.25 inches with carefully prepped cases and loads in a Kelbly built Panda in a tight neck .22-250 AI. It works very well for long er range varmints." The question isn't what we might do with weighted components, the question is how much difference does it make. Few people - and rifles - would ever notice the difference no matter what groups they shoot, certainly not in factory rifles.