Reloading shotgun sabots???

bswiv · April 10, 2008, 02:12 PM

Anyone have any experence with reloading 20 ga sabots? Wondering how much trouble it would be to duplicate something like the Hornady???

crowbeaner · April 14, 2008, 07:08 PM

I sent an email recently to Brenneke USA to inquire if they still offer component slugs for reloading like they did years back and was told that the LIABILITY LAWYERS wouldn't let them. Progress my A**.

45Marlin carbine · April 15, 2008, 08:07 AM

Lyman makes a mould for casting wasp-waist slugs, IIRC 20 ga included (and 12) this is something I'm interested in how about updates when you get it nutted out.

freakshow10mm · April 15, 2008, 10:13 AM

Lyman has a mold that uses a standard crimp and wad. Available in 20ga. I'm getting a mold and trying it out.

bswiv · April 15, 2008, 06:19 PM

The following came from a smith who made a O/U rifle for me last year. It came about because we are discussing him making a 20 ga double rifle and I wanted to know about the loads he uses.

"The loads that I have used for these 20 gauge "bore rifles" is a cast lead Lyman slug made in a hollow based hourglass shape. The beauty of them is that they are loaded using standard AA hulls and AA shot cups, then star crimped, just like ordinary shot loads. They weigh in at around 350 grains, can be safely pushed at 1500 to 1600 FPS, and still have fairly low operating pressures. The only other things I do is to mark them on the side as "Slug" with indelable marker and I color the primers red with a "Sharpy" felt amrker so that I can instantly tell that they are loaded with slugs. I fully rifled barrels, these are very accurate and hit like a freight train. The mold can be bought from Lyman but the slugs need to hand casted. If you guys don't want to mess with casting them, I can supply them to you for a moderate price. The best part is that no special equiptment is needed and anyone can do them up correctly."

bswiv · April 15, 2008, 06:26 PM

Finishing the thought:

While the load he suggests sounds good what I was really after was a duplication of something like the hornady............

Even though what he suggests sounds easy and sounds like it would have plenty of punch. Still the lighter faster bullet out of the Hornady, 260 grain and close to 1900 fps, would shoot a lot flatter and hold it's punch longer.

freakshow10mm · April 15, 2008, 11:38 PM

Yes, those are the same slugs we are talking about. Make sure your smithy is properly licensed to sell the slugs. Don't wanted anyone getting in trouble.

bswiv · April 16, 2008, 05:24 AM

His offer is only to ship the lead. That should not be a problem.

I do have a thought though. What he is doing is simply loading a slug in a standard wad and stuffing it in a crimped shell with the wad acting as the sabot and picking up the rotation from the rifling.

So what's to stop one from expereminting with different slugs? Certianly it would be necessary to watch the weight of the slug so as to keep pressures in line, but the concept seems simple enough.

Maybe .58 cal hollow base Minnies?

You'd have to be sure that the combination of the wad and the bullet did not exceed bore diameter but beyond that the only question would be how well it would stabalize.

????

Anyone ever try this?

freakshow10mm · April 16, 2008, 08:51 AM

If he casts the slugs and sells them, he is manufacturing ammunition according to the GCA and needs to be licensed. If he is selling alloy, that is fine.

As far as experimenting with slugs, uncharted territory in shotguns is not good. My understanding with shotgun data is that it is a recipe, not a suggestion like with cartridge loading. That specific data has been brewed with that specific component list to produce that specific result. Using a slug that has a different weight, ballistic coefficient, bearing surface, drag coefficient without knowing how that will effect pressures, is a serious undertaking.

Yes, what you described with the slug seated in a standard wad being spun by rifling is exactly what is going on. These slugs will be "hidden" by the crimp, so be sure to mark the hulls with something to indicate they are in fact slugs and not shot. I got hulls mixed up on a pheasant hunt and blasted one at 10y with a 3" slug load out of my 20ga. BOOM! Kicked way more than the normal #4 standard field loads. Perfect hole in the bird dead center. You could shove an entire 20ga shell through the hole with little resistence. Whoops!

bswiv · April 16, 2008, 08:16 PM

Freakshow...........

Sounds like some experence here. SO how well were you able to get them to group? Was this out of a rifled barrel?

I'm most likely going to get a double built with rifled 20ga barrels so I am cuerious.

Ruger4570 · April 16, 2008, 08:40 PM

I will have to check again, but as I remember, casting a slug and selling it is not ammunition, simply a component. If he were selling loaded ammo for a profit, that would be different.

freakshow10mm · April 16, 2008, 09:41 PM

I don't have experience loading slugs. I ordered a slug mold for my 20ga, the Lyman one. Should be here early next week.

Ruger4570, according to the Gun Control Act, components are ammunition. The simple act of selling or trading them is an attempt to make profit and thus livelihood in the eyes of the ATF.

Read my post, number 10, in this thread. They are a direct quote from the ATF's website.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...hlight=license

Quote:

(A4) What kinds of ammunition are covered by the GCA? [Back]

Ammunition includes cartridge cases, primers, bullets or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm other than an antique firearm.

Items NOT covered include blank ammunition, tear gas ammunition, pellets and nonmetallic shotgun hulls without primers.

Generally, no records are required for ammunition transactions. However, information about the disposition of armor piercing ammunition is required to be entered into a record by importers, manufacturers, and collectors.

A license is not required for dealers in ammunition only.

[18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17) and 922(b)(5), 27 CFR 478.11 and 478.125]

Quote:

(F11) Is a license required to engage in the business of selling small arms ammunition? [Back]

No. A license is not required for a dealer in ammunition only, but a manufacturer or an importer of ammunition must be licensed.

[18 U.S.C. 922 (a)(1)(B)]

Quote:

(H4) Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer? [Back]

Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit. No, if the person reloads only for personal use.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a) (i) and 923(a), 27 CFR 478.41]

Note that the manufacture of "ammunition" is defined as all four components, PLUS actual completed rounds. This means Hodgdon, Sierra, Winchester, and even Starline Brass have 06 FFL Ammunition Manufacturer licenses.

Also note the often quoted ATF bulletin regarding the definition of "livelihood and profit" applies only to the manufacture of firearms, not ammunition. There is no definition in any statutes, code, or case law regarding the manufacture and selling/distributing of ammunition. This is akin to being the test case for post office carry.

I am a properly licensed type 06 FFL Ammunition Manufacturer. It took a check payable to the ATF and three months of waiting.

45Marlin carbine · April 17, 2008, 08:06 AM

IIRC I have seen write-ups concerning using the Lyman slug in a rifled barrel - it was very favorable. would pack a wallop for sure. since a smoothbore is a good survival-type weapon I'm interested in how they do in a smooth barrel and/or a rifled choke tube. seems to me to be a good idea, a dozen slugs in a survival pack along with say 50-100 shot shells.

April 10, 2008, 02:12 PM	#1
bswiv Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: NE FL....... Posts: 1,081	Reloading shotgun sabots??? Anyone have any experence with reloading 20 ga sabots? Wondering how much trouble it would be to duplicate something like the Hornady???

April 14, 2008, 07:08 PM	#2
crowbeaner Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 1,943	I sent an email recently to Brenneke USA to inquire if they still offer component slugs for reloading like they did years back and was told that the LIABILITY LAWYERS wouldn't let them. Progress my A**. __________________ If you want your children to follow in your footsteps, be careful where you walk. Beware the man that only owns one gun; he probably knows how to use it. I just hope my ship comes in before my dock rots.

April 15, 2008, 08:07 AM	#3
45Marlin carbine Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2007 Location: South-Western North Carolina Posts: 1,124	Lyman makes a mould for casting wasp-waist slugs, IIRC 20 ga included (and 12) this is something I'm interested in how about updates when you get it nutted out.

April 15, 2008, 10:13 AM	#4
freakshow10mm Junior member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: MI Posts: 1,398	Lyman has a mold that uses a standard crimp and wad. Available in 20ga. I'm getting a mold and trying it out.

April 15, 2008, 06:19 PM	#5
bswiv Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: NE FL....... Posts: 1,081	The following came from a smith who made a O/U rifle for me last year. It came about because we are discussing him making a 20 ga double rifle and I wanted to know about the loads he uses. "The loads that I have used for these 20 gauge "bore rifles" is a cast lead Lyman slug made in a hollow based hourglass shape. The beauty of them is that they are loaded using standard AA hulls and AA shot cups, then star crimped, just like ordinary shot loads. They weigh in at around 350 grains, can be safely pushed at 1500 to 1600 FPS, and still have fairly low operating pressures. The only other things I do is to mark them on the side as "Slug" with indelable marker and I color the primers red with a "Sharpy" felt amrker so that I can instantly tell that they are loaded with slugs. I fully rifled barrels, these are very accurate and hit like a freight train. The mold can be bought from Lyman but the slugs need to hand casted. If you guys don't want to mess with casting them, I can supply them to you for a moderate price. The best part is that no special equiptment is needed and anyone can do them up correctly."

April 15, 2008, 06:26 PM	#6
bswiv Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: NE FL....... Posts: 1,081	Finishing the thought: While the load he suggests sounds good what I was really after was a duplication of something like the hornady............ Even though what he suggests sounds easy and sounds like it would have plenty of punch. Still the lighter faster bullet out of the Hornady, 260 grain and close to 1900 fps, would shoot a lot flatter and hold it's punch longer.

April 15, 2008, 11:38 PM	#7
freakshow10mm Junior member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: MI Posts: 1,398	Yes, those are the same slugs we are talking about. Make sure your smithy is properly licensed to sell the slugs. Don't wanted anyone getting in trouble.

April 16, 2008, 05:24 AM	#8
bswiv Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: NE FL....... Posts: 1,081	His offer is only to ship the lead. That should not be a problem. I do have a thought though. What he is doing is simply loading a slug in a standard wad and stuffing it in a crimped shell with the wad acting as the sabot and picking up the rotation from the rifling. So what's to stop one from expereminting with different slugs? Certianly it would be necessary to watch the weight of the slug so as to keep pressures in line, but the concept seems simple enough. Maybe .58 cal hollow base Minnies? You'd have to be sure that the combination of the wad and the bullet did not exceed bore diameter but beyond that the only question would be how well it would stabalize. ???? Anyone ever try this?

April 16, 2008, 08:51 AM	#9
freakshow10mm Junior member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: MI Posts: 1,398	If he casts the slugs and sells them, he is manufacturing ammunition according to the GCA and needs to be licensed. If he is selling alloy, that is fine. As far as experimenting with slugs, uncharted territory in shotguns is not good. My understanding with shotgun data is that it is a recipe, not a suggestion like with cartridge loading. That specific data has been brewed with that specific component list to produce that specific result. Using a slug that has a different weight, ballistic coefficient, bearing surface, drag coefficient without knowing how that will effect pressures, is a serious undertaking. Yes, what you described with the slug seated in a standard wad being spun by rifling is exactly what is going on. These slugs will be "hidden" by the crimp, so be sure to mark the hulls with something to indicate they are in fact slugs and not shot. I got hulls mixed up on a pheasant hunt and blasted one at 10y with a 3" slug load out of my 20ga. BOOM! Kicked way more than the normal #4 standard field loads. Perfect hole in the bird dead center. You could shove an entire 20ga shell through the hole with little resistence. Whoops!

April 16, 2008, 08:16 PM	#10
bswiv Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: NE FL....... Posts: 1,081	Freakshow........... Sounds like some experence here. SO how well were you able to get them to group? Was this out of a rifled barrel? I'm most likely going to get a double built with rifled 20ga barrels so I am cuerious.

April 16, 2008, 08:40 PM	#11
Ruger4570 Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2005 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 2,136	I will have to check again, but as I remember, casting a slug and selling it is not ammunition, simply a component. If he were selling loaded ammo for a profit, that would be different.

April 17, 2008, 08:06 AM	#13
45Marlin carbine Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2007 Location: South-Western North Carolina Posts: 1,124	IIRC I have seen write-ups concerning using the Lyman slug in a rifled barrel - it was very favorable. would pack a wallop for sure. since a smoothbore is a good survival-type weapon I'm interested in how they do in a smooth barrel and/or a rifled choke tube. seems to me to be a good idea, a dozen slugs in a survival pack along with say 50-100 shot shells.