January 25, 2012, 08:53 PM | #676 |
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Some more sabot and slug ideas, discarding types
and locked on base types. First picture of 20ga Buckhamer pulled apart. The bunch I have were pulled apart, the slug won't lock back in tight, into the base. Second is various 20ga sabot/slug ideas some using buckhammer sabot bases that a bunch of 458 cal lead slugs and jackted slugs I have, lock into real tight. The 458 lead ones are 400gr, jkt are 350gr. And I got some empty SPW 20 gauge sabots, and 20ga Buckhammer slugs lock into them real tight.I have many of these slugs. These slugs are 440gr. Also is 3" 20ga FED factory sabot shell and one of discarding sabots out of the case. Also a 3.5" 20ga Hastings 3.5" load with black locked on base sabot, and sabots out of the case and couple 20 brass 3.5" RMC cases. Next is variety of 12ga sabots with 50cal slugs in them.2 white and the pink sabot are FED, The black is Hornady, With a 50cal long bullet . The grey, is a BPI with .504" cast 440gr slug. I wish the BPI was full size like the others and fit rifled barrels tight for accuracy......... Last 12ga SPWs from Slug-R-US(30 cents ea) with various 50 cal slugs locked in tight, and shown with one out of a factory load, the dark colored one. 50cal 385gr Great Plains ML slugs lock in perfect for a lighter loading. Other ML slugs will do and a few of the Dixie Gunworks 50cal slugs lock in also...Ed
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February 3, 2012, 07:37 PM | #677 |
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Some more slug setups and ideas.
First is USS brand sabot that European cartridge has, without locked base, a discarding 12ga sabot, with .629" brass slug. It is as accurate in rifled barrel as its locked on base counterpart, in smooth barrels. Up to 750 gr brass slug I tested. 3 shots in an inch, 30yds. Shown with BPI powder cup seals. 2nd is the USS slugs with locked on base for comparison. With corresponding length cases they were designed for. 3rd are heavy solid tungsten slugs, the smaller .580" cal and 1200gr, the bigger ones .660" cal and 2200 gr. A guy in Southern MI made a few for me to check out. Now these too hard to fire fullbore, damage rifling, must be in plastic. These are just what the super heavy slug guys might like. 4th is a 1000gr 58cal tungsten slug in a 12ga REM style 58cal sabot. Notice how short it is for being super heavy.
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February 12, 2012, 10:24 PM | #678 |
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Here is some more older cartridges and ideas.
First is a fellows collection of older brass cases. They look like Berdan primed. Run from 36ga to 12ga, big one on right is flare cartridge. Second is a paper case clad with thin brass nearly to the top. Third is picture of paper case crimped into the side of a slug with shallow grooves.I did one pictured above with a Dixie slug. Some experimenting with 12ga discarding style sabot idea that takes 58cal slugs/bullets.I pictured them above. A fullbore,bore fitting sabot that takes 575-580 cal slugs or bullets, cast or jacketed. For reloaders to use, and not undersize ones that have been available, for reloading guys. That the guys haven't been able to get speed and accuracy at the same time. These sabots are super accurate in most tests, in factory Remington sabot loads. Much more so than the undersize sabots reloaders have had to work with. I tested with the 440 gr .575cal hollowbase Dixie Gunworks # BA-1103 lead slug and 3 shots from heavy long barrel NEF nearly into same hole, at 30yds. Gun locked down. Going about 2200. Our slow powder loads in 3.5" plastic. Can be loaded faster. No tests at long range, bad eyes/no scope, colder than witches ---, and no time. I am trying to find who makes these.There are about 2000 injection mold companies in US.Ed
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February 22, 2012, 02:26 AM | #679 |
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Another 12ga sabot idea, first picture is a 570 gr USS slug,
with Powder Cup seal from BPI, locked to USS discarding sabot section. This shortens column so that we can get more of the slower powders in we use, in shorter 2.75" cases. With slower powders, they get to peak pressure a little easier so that the cushion usually between seal and sabot/slugs isn't needed. This locked on seal will aid in smoothbore accuracy and it will work of course in rifled barrels. This sabot has a peg on the back that locks it in original setup to the green USS cushion base/seal, and we just pried it apart and drilled tight hole to match in the Powder Cup seal, and forced it on for a locked fit.. Slug is .629" diameter. Next picture is 3 sizes of first USS sabot slugs, with the locked on bases which work good with them. Giving nearly rifle accurracy in smooth bores. Here is old time picture of couple of Rodda 4 bores. Man what nice old guns. Next picture is a 1.5" Minie ball slug, might work for close to a one gauge. It is next to older 37mm case which might fire it also. Maybe a way to make a one gauge of sorts, if.......I get enough ambition...Ed
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February 24, 2012, 08:59 PM | #680 |
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Some more 12ga sabot work. The sabots in first picture are
like ones we want to get made for reloading. They have 440gr Dixie Gunworks muzzleloading minie slug. I related earlier that 3 shots with these in heavy rifled barrel NEF got them all in nearly the same hole, at 30 yds. Also 4 shots same distance, a 3 inch best group, smooth barrel. The slight hollow base helps with smooth barrel. The hollow base isn't as deep say as a 12ga foster slug.Another one they have, a little heavier, with little deeper hollow base should make tighter group. Loads in 3.5" plastic going about 2200. Second picture shows something new I found out.It shows two different wad setups. When I took the REM Accutip loads apart I notice they used a thick seal, old style white felt cushion. All the tests I read about that factory load, says it is always near the top in accuracy. I had used the BPGS and flexseal cushion mostly, as it seals real good. But in the smoothbore test above the thick seal and felt wad gave the 3" group and the other wad setup 5". The smoothbore, which isn't a perfect system, for slugs not designed for smooth, worked out to show and magnify difference between the two wad setups.. What first clued me in on this, to make a check, was recent weeks research on net,on all sabot patents, where I read that sometimes plastic cushions cock a little affecting accuracy. That is the plastic cushions with a lot of space in them. Where the felt/fiber cushions stay much more stable for a bigger percentage of shots.The very accurate Hornady SST sabot has no cushion at all between seal and sabot, but a thin rubber cushion disc inside their sabot, and the above may be one reason. The Federal Fusion sabots and the Federal Expander sabot both are accurate--they don't have a wide open plastic cushion. Third picture is of a Greener Martini slug gun a guy rigged up with a heavy rifled bull barrel in 12ga. Great looking gun. Finally thoughts about all of our posts on many forums(110) around the net. We are very happy with the response and help we get doing this. We feel this thread a positive boon and help to shooters interested in big bores, and by venturing into the big bore areas will promote more guys getting into shooting, reloading, smithing, etc. And a measure of interest are the views. All sites including a big picture site, have about 9 million views. And also we congratulate the 24hr Campfire Big Bore as being being the first with our regular 12ga FH thread to go over 200,000 views.Next is the Highroad with nearly 150,000, third is the Firingline with nearly 125,000, 4th Accurate Reloading 112,000, and 5th WeaponsForum 106,000.ED
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February 24, 2012, 09:02 PM | #681 |
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I'm don't know why but I want one.
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February 24, 2012, 11:39 PM | #682 |
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man
Man... the envelope; you have pushed it. I can't say that I want or need a gun that has over 11,000 ft-lbs of muzzle energy, but it's pretty cool.
On a hunting forum there was a guy that had a permanent hardon for the 10 and 12ga 3.5s". I joked and asked it he'd prefer a 20ga 4" gun and he said that in all honesty, he'd buy one tomorrow Like Churchhill said, it don't take all kinds, we just got 'em. |
February 25, 2012, 01:48 AM | #683 |
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H&R is out of rifled barrels right now. Otherwise... I'd be ordering some brass cases.
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February 25, 2012, 10:42 AM | #684 |
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What PSI is the max for that round?
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March 1, 2012, 04:46 AM | #685 |
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Which load or case are you asking about..--
!2ga plastic 15,000 psi in modern guns. 12ga RMC brass 30,000 in bolt Savage 210-212 about 22,000 NEF. Our 12gaFH case we make 60,000 in high pressure guns. My 585s and 700s 60,000..Ed
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March 9, 2012, 11:07 PM | #686 |
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Some possibilities with the 12ga sabots we have been
looking at. We may have possible leads on companies that can make sabots, that have most of equipment to do so. If they work out ok, the startup cost isn't as high as others who have to set up complete machines. We are working to line up a dealer who will get good ones made, at one of these sabot making companies.WE hope to have similiar design as the ones pictured below but with slightly thicker base. I've sent these sabots with Dixie cast slugs to different companies to show what is needed, and what the full size specs should be. With Dixie cast in they are similiar to Federal Fusion sabots with lead slugs, only our slugs are 58cal. We will keep you informed on what happens. At least 5 58cal slugs that Dixie has, looks maybe to work in these, as best I can tell. And there are a few molds for 58cal cast slugs, by different companies. The possibilities are, to reload with decent price slugs and simple inexpensive sabot like these, for buck a round. 40-60 cent slug, 15-20 cent sabot, powder/primer 30 cents. Those sabots I pictured above we been testing, had 385gr Remington plastic nose bullets. I used some in my 585HE and I get them to 3900 fps. Just to see how fast was possible in the 585. If I shot them in my biggest 585, the 585 HSM, they'd go about 4500 or so. They are real light compared to 750gr 585 cal bullets. Like a varmint round. Do up a coyote fine.All skinned. Some neat guns-First is a 20ga smooth bore Beretta style break action 20ga. This is one of the greatest style break actions there is. Beretta made their trap guns on actions like this and great value for no more than they cost. This one only 100 bucks. We lengthened chamber to 3.5" so it can use various 20ga smoothbore slug loads that we are working on and testing..The SPW, Hastings, Lightfield type 20ga slugs have decent 50yd accuracy in heavier smooth barrels. Next is couple of older guns I found pictures of, a 4bore Hughes and a 600NE Wilke. I like them. 2nd is special 20ga double that poster Nitro 450 Express on the NitroExpress forum had built. Great job on nice looking slug gun.Ed
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March 10, 2012, 07:49 PM | #687 |
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Man... don't do this
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March 24, 2012, 10:41 PM | #688 |
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The sabots we are working with, take about 15 different
58cal cast slugs for good fit, with the OD measurement of sabot at.733" with all of them in. There are 4 Dixie Gunworks MZ slugs, 6 slugs from Lyman moulds I know of. Five slugs from Lee moulds.These are mainly muzzleloading slugs and can be cast varying hardnesses. Examples-58cal (.575"- .578") Lee molds for 500gr, 460 gr, 350gr, etc, slugs Dixie Gunworks slugs of 440gr, 375gr, 490gr, etc, weights. Lyman 530gr, 510 gr, 460gr, 400gr, 315gr, etc. And they are all good slugs at a saving especially when folks cast their own. I'm getting out info on these to see if any reloading suppliers will try to get some made, so we will have a quality, proper OD size sabot, to reload with. Some stuff about sabots. I get questions about how to reload them for accurate fast loads in plastic cases for regular hunting and target use. Have to tell them we need to have proper OD size sabot.. Most want sabot loads and not fullbore cast....Why, they want lighter for less recoil in regular weight guns, they figure smaller slugs cheaper, they won't have leading with sabots if using cast, don't have to lube and don't need gas checks if cast, cast slugs for sabot use cheaper than jacketed. These parameters cover a lot of shotgun only deer hunters trying to afford doing their own loads, trying to be as accurate as expensive factory sabot stuff and hoping the savings will allow much more shooting.In the 1st is 440gr 58cal Dixie, and second, one I like better a 510gr from Lyman mould. Third slug from a Lee 460gr 58cal mould. 4th is various 58cal slug ideas. Here is picture of a nice Armi San Marco 20ga break action we found, that we're testing loads in. I really like the style of this gun. I'm going to have extra barrel setup, an extra heavy 585cal barrel and put my long 585HE in it, to go along the other 585HE single shots 585HEs we have setup on NEFs, and CBCs. Here is a picture of nice Greener Martini 12ga, with new stock, and a heavy rifled bull barrel, a fellow redid. Such great work. And very accurate. All these guns need like all singleshots, including break actions, are heavy barrels and they shoot great and are easy to shoot with the extra weight.
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March 25, 2012, 01:46 AM | #689 | |
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Quote:
And... how much are you willing to pay for sabots? This would be a low-volume niche product, so it would be hard to get a big name interested. But if you're willing to pay an appropriate price for a specialty product, a smaller company may be interested.
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April 5, 2012, 08:35 PM | #690 |
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Frankenmauser- I sent you back a PM. The .733" od is what it must
be with slug in it, and these measure that even empty at the bottom. Probably retail 25 cents each, but can't pay the buck for the one that is being made right, on a small scale, costing that much. And we can't pay the quarter or more for undersize ones like we've had. The company making these can do 7000 a day they told me, with two hole setup. Here are a couple high speed, stop frame photos, showing how well and even these sabots we want to get made, open up. The petals being thinner with 58 cal bullets or slugs, opens easy. The slots between petals, going into the base aids even opening. We know a couple retailers that are interested in selling these style of sabots, if they round up the money to get the aquipment setup. Shooting supply companies are down some due the economy. Third is the 585 HE project, using a Savage 110-112 bolt action. Shown with barrel threaded and screwing action on. And the action is long enough to make a single stack mag, if we want, that would feed, with a little work, our 585 HE long case. 4th & 5th; pictures are of a old time 20 gauge, double slug and shot gun that was priced little less than the big name English ones. It is a Husqvarna double. Nice gun, we'd really have fun with modern 20ga slug shooting using this ..Ed
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April 18, 2012, 02:23 AM | #691 |
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Some info we have found out about the operation of discarding sabots.
In first picture you see thin white line between the strong powder and the sabot. It is the white fiber cushion wad pressed flat. It is shown on the left in second picture. In the picture of it compressed you see it is pushing squarely on the sabot. This is most important wheh the sabot and slug exit barrel to get the slug started as straight as possible for accuracy. Other types of plastic cushions aid in sealing and help get best velocities but the rolls and legs in them can allow them to side shift which can affect how straight the sabot is on exit, thus causing the slug to deviate. The gray sabots we tried had cushion on the bottom of them and inspecting them after firing you could see they were pushed sideway some of the time. That is why we are trying to get tight fitting simple sabots built and recommend using heavy plastic seals with fiber wads to have least deviation and best accuracy. Third picture is our steel block we are using for 2bore with breach hole we got EDM'd into it. Fourth picture is an old time Kynoch round called the "Lethal" and the "destructor". Fith picture is a H&H underlever double 8bore. Nice beautifal old gun.Ed
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May 5, 2012, 06:51 PM | #692 |
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I think we found good overall sabot design that will
be the easiest to get made, easiest to get seals and whatever wads needed... Keeping design simple. It is same simple design as the ones pictured above but with slightly thicker base.It is fairly compact for more room for our slow powder loads, and when using slower powders, we don't need as much cushioning which makes the room for the powder. Larger charges of slower powder, better velocity with less case expansion, and more reloads possible. We hadn't tested soft lead 58cal slugs in 12ga sabots for penetration until now.. They did very well, two different 440 gr ones, going though 4 inch dried timber, pushing out some wood on the back. Shows they are just starting to expand.Should do great for deer and hogs. Going 2200 in long barrel NEF. Have pictures later. A 58cal slug at good speed is nothing to look down on. Many African hunters liked that caliber in their 577 doubles for big game. Slugs can be loaded faster, cast heavier, and cast harder for any need.And compared to other way of getting slugs out of a shotgun, once we have good fullbore sabots, we save on needing bullet lube, gas checks, cheaper to get, no barrel leading, much better BC in the same weight of slugs compared to short fullbore ones.... Here are pictures of molds that can make cast 58cal slugs for the 12ga sabot we are working on.There are many makers and brands and styles of molds and weights available. Here is picture of a 10ga wadcup with a 730gr hollowbase lead slug in on the left .In my heavy barrel 10ga smoothbore I got 6" group at 50 yds. If we made hollow in the base bigger it would be more accurate in smooth barrel. The slug is .69cal one,measures .686"(from Lymam mold like in picture), that Dixie Gunworks has. I bumped up the diameter about .015" --wadcup is BPI VP100. Here is picture of a nice 8ga double a fellow has. Great looking gun..Ed
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May 6, 2012, 04:04 PM | #693 |
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I really like those Martini-Greener style guns.
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May 20, 2012, 11:38 PM | #694 |
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I like them also.
Working more with 58cal lead slugs in 12ga sabot we want to get built. We shot a few for checking penetration, with 440gr slugs at 2200 plus fps. Shooting into popple. In picture the 6x6 on the left penetrated by harder lead alloy slug, with slug showing very little expansion on exit from the 6x6, On the right, soft pure lead slug through a 4x6 starting to show expansion on exit. These slugs can be gotten or cast your own to about any hardess needed. They can even be heat treated to be as hard as jacketed. I have rounded up 9 different ones very easy, shown in 2nd picture and there are more. Ones in picture range from 400gr to 530 gr. There are molds to make them down to 350 gr and less. Here is picture, on left of Accutip sabot we been taking out of loaded rounds and testing 58cal lead slugs with, and right a hard plastic sabot model, we are working on to see how slugs fit and how it looks, and how it compares to the Accutip and other sabots we have here from WIN, REM, FED, Hornady. In picture is a really neat, very strong, 10ga Beretta style gun we got. Its barrel is heavier at the muzzle than most all 10 gauges we've seen except the NEF with bull barrel. Made by Pedretti, has top lever to open, instead bottom lever like Beretta or the Investarm 20ga we showed above. Going to make into switch barrel for 10ga and monoblock one in 585HE later. Have 2 barrels for it. Has nice big pad we put on it and it is weighted to 12 lbs in 10ga.. Now for some internal ballistics comparisons.There is formula for figuring appoximate Average Barrel Pressure, You take Muzzle Energy times 12......and divide it by the BORE Area in sq in, times the length of the barrel in inches. Examples- you have a 458 WIN, my 585HE and 12ga 3.5"-- all at 5000 Ft Lbs of energy which for 458 be standard load. The 585HE in this mode would be burning close to charcoal. The 12ga 3.5 would be 440gr slug in sabot at 2200 plus. The 458 Ave Barrel Pressure is about 16,000 psi. The 585HE Ave Barrel Pressure is about 8,000 psi. The 3.5 12ga Ave Barrel Pressure about 5,200 psi. The purpose of this-- To show the possibilites of big bores. Ok you can't go much higher with 458WIN, about 80gr of powder But 585HE you can get way over 10,000 ft lbs,with 180gr powder it holds running at 458WIN Ave Barrel pressure. AND 12ga and 3.5" brass case in Savage 210, slow powder loads, heavy barrel, you can get over 10,000 ft lb. with 180gr powder at much less than 458Win Ave Barrel Pressure. Possibilities are really great fun. Ed
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June 7, 2012, 12:01 AM | #695 |
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Some 12ga sabot progress. Here is pic of our sabot model, two
in front, shown with Accutip sabot behind. They are all holding 58cal slugs, showing how tight they fit and conform to the inside of the sabot petals. A decent fit is a help for better accuracy. Hope they get built for us this summer. We are working on it. Second picture is from a fellow who put 58cal cast slugs in a thinwall 20ga shotcup and shot this at 50 yds. This with first load he tried. Great accuracy for so many shots. This shows great possibilities with 58cal slugs, and should even do better in the 12ga sabot like the above we like. I've heard about BP guys who got into 58cal that they get good accuracy. Here is picture of some the grey bls sabots showing the way they have got bent and beat up, and shows what I and many others have found; that plastic cushions can bend and twist and shift, affecting the slug on leaving the barrel, affecting the accuracy. On a future work, I'm doing a Greener Martini in my 585HE long case, Here is picture of a parts action with a stock idea I'm experimenting with. Might use this or regular pistol grip.
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June 24, 2012, 03:10 PM | #696 |
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Back after losing time to a lightning fried computer.
Test in 3.5" plastic using a few accutip 12ga sabots out of factory loads. The 12ga accutip sabot, hard cast 440gr 58cal minie slug in 36" rifled NEF at 2200, and it went through 12 inches of wood like butter. The hole out showed it was starting to expand a little. Test of softer lead 500gr 58cal Minie with deeper hollowbase in accutip in smooth cylinder bore barrel at 2000, and 3 shots in 3" at 30 yds. This was a Lyman 575213 new style minie slug More experimenting can make these work fair in smooth barrels. For best accuracy use a blunt nose heavier 58cal 600gr slug with deepest hollow in the base. The blunt nose would be more front end heavy and a little more accurate from smooth bore.. Lee and Lyman have molds like that.Others selling slugs also. I mentioned before about seals/wads must be stable and not crush down off center, or it might affect accuracy. Here is picture of the one piece seal and wad Federal uses in their sabot loads. Notice it doesn't have a lot of space in the cushion part that would allow it to tip or go off center. Here is picture of some 10ga work using expanded 69cal minie and 700cal bullets in 10ga wadcup. 69cal hollowbase fairly accurate to 50yds in heavy barrel smoothbore. Here is picture of the Savage 110 done in my 585HE. Hollow butt of the stock is weighted, gun handles nice.Ed
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July 10, 2012, 11:44 PM | #697 |
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Using scoped NEF Ultra 12ga, 24 inch
barrel, shot hard cast, 400 gr 58cal Lyman Minie in Accutip sabot at 75 yds. Hit small paper plate 5 for 5. Going 2000fps. Speaking of 585HE above. We have two in falling blocks, 10 bolt guns,5 break actions, and other types. A fun cartridge, and now that we are working with 58cal slugs in 12ga sabots, 58 cal is where it is at.. And now we are getting a run of 585HE cases made. Bertram getting ready to make the last die; done later this month and will be doing cases then. Cases are 3 bucks each, bulk shipping included. He usually charges 5 or more for wildcats, but as I'm furnishing final sizing die, and he will ship by bulk freight saving him handling, and he had a couple tools already to use, he said $3 each, a real good deal.. He will ship whole bulk order to me. I will pass them on to everyone buying in first run. I and the boy will get a bunch also, to load for others, to fill orders, and collectors. Get 100 for 300 bucks, or be a 500 guy buying a 167 cases for 500 bucks. I'm having guys just make out MO to Bertram Bullets and get it to me and I send them on to him. I'll keep track of who gets what and ship cases to the guys helping with first run, no shipping charge. Want to make the run as big as possible. Got money ready to go for over 700. Like to get 3-4 times as much if possible.Ed
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August 7, 2012, 09:52 PM | #698 |
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Sorry, late in posting, bad weather, computer lines zapped again.
Some more experimenting with the Accutip sabots, Designed a two ball load using .577" cast lead balls. Bottom ball flattened a little in vise with the flats up and down in sabot. Used a fold crimp, 3.5" once fired REM case in NEF, long rifled barrel.....Fold crimp goes down on the top ball...Round balls 285gr each, going about 190 hit within 2 inches at 30 yds. Those 58 cal inside Accutip sabots are really versatile. Tested 3 shots with 58cal Buffalo hollowpoint, hollowbase, lead, muzzleloading slugs, 2" at 30yds. All loads with plastic x12x seal and white felt cushion under sabot. Experimenting with an Enfield, had one set up with my 700HE 3.25, and just did one in my longer 700HE. Did little longer port and added little more weight.First picture. 2nd picture is a neat 3 barrel 16ga, which if I had it,deepen chamber, I'd have a neat 16ga FH....Ed PS---We are gaining on getting the big run of brass made for our 585HE. He is finishing the tooling and soon be producing. We want make the run as big as possible so everyone is welcome to help. You in US get in on first order, cases are $3 each.Those in the US he'll send whole order to me bulk freight, a big savings, and I'll get them to the parties involved, no charge for helping out on first run.The $3 cost is a great bargain compared to other big bore cases and if you buy 150 or so you've saved enough, over the cost of others to buy a barrel to make 585HE gun with. My contact--- gunowner at journey.com For those in Australia,Canada,South Africa,UK, and other countries send pmt to Bertram and he'll send cases to you individually when done. Right now can't afford export costs to send cases back out of US... .
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August 7, 2012, 10:04 PM | #699 |
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As always, my favorite thread. Where are you getting the wads for the .58 caliber "slugs"?
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August 16, 2012, 12:52 AM | #700 |
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The sabots are ones we took from factory REM Accutip 12ga sabot
loads, just for testing. We are in the process of getting a large number made similiar to them, for supplying all reloaders with a good proper size discarding sabot. Other 12ga sabot offerings over the years for reloading were way undersize and not very accurate.Might have them being made by fall.ED
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