Is this confiscation through attrition

[pnac]

I guess death could be called a form of attrition in this case.

Police in Buffalo are grabbing all guns of deceased handgun permit holders and not telling family members that the law applies only to handguns,and does not apply to long guns.


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/11/14...cmp=latestnews

[44 AMP]

My family ran into this in the late 1960s. My parents were in an auto accident, and while they both came out ok, with minor injuries, there were fatalities in the accident.

They learned that if my father had died, his handgun collection would have had to have been surrendered to the police, absent any other permit holders in the household. (NY handguns are listed on the permit by make, caliber, serial number and barrel length).

At that time, and in that place, if they were turned in to the State Patrol, they would keep them 30 days, and then destroy them (so we were told). If they were turned in to the Sherriff, and a permit applied for, they would be kept until the permit was approved or denied.

Mom applied for her permit the next week. Both my brother and I applied for ours as soon as we reached the practical age.

This has been the law there for a long time.

Long guns are not, and never were part of that law.

Police seizing rifles and shotguns from the deceased is simply theft from the estate. A case can be made in certain circumstances for the police to hold them secure, temporarily, pending disposition of the estate, but as a general practice, absolutely not!

[2ndsojourn]

"Gee...I don't know what my dad with his guns before he died" *shrugs*

[wogpotter]

Correct, its not a new law they're just dusting off & acting on an old law. They don't seem to understand it, but by George they're acting on it.

Hint if your older relatives own firearms get a permit anyway just to insulate yourself from this stupidity. "They" know where & who you are anyway.

[JWT]

May be an old law, butit is still a rather stupid one. Needs to be challenged

[44 AMP]

May be an old law, butit is still a rather stupid one. Needs to be challenged

While I won't argue that it isn't stupid, I am unsure if you are referring to the police lawfully picking up the pistol when all permitted owners are deceased?

or to the general stupidity of a permit system in general?

As to a challenge, good luck with that. NY city was where modern gun control began with the Sullivan laws. The entire state adopted a permit system within a few decades, and its been that way ever since.

NY's permit system is intense, and unlike many other states, the permit is not a blanket permit for you to possess any handgun. you are only legal to possess those specific guns listed on your permit. By Serial number, among other things. On the plus side, more than one person can have the same gun on their permit, so a family can provide a safe legal path to continue ownership of the handguns(s).

If there is no one else permitted for the gun(s) they police are required to take it. If, as the report indicate, the police are taking all the guns of a deceased (long guns) they are exceeding their lawful authority.

It may be nothing more than a gun grab, or it may be skewed reporting of a situation where handguns were taken in accordance with the law, and other guns were taken at the same time to secure them from "walking away".

Ultimately what happens to the guns will determine if it was theft, or "protective custody".

[62coltnavy]

I think the law is invalid as a theft of estate assets. Simply because there is no New York heir that may lawfully take possession does not mean that the guns cannot be legally sold out of state as part of the estate administration, or that an out of state relative cannot lawfully inherit them. Since a handgun collection can easily run in the multiple thousands of dollars, I as an heir would be really ****** if the state took not only the guns but the value of the guns. Sure sounds like a "taking" for which compensation is owed.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by 62coltnavy

I think the law is invalid as a theft of estate assets. Simply because there is no New York heir that may lawfully take possession does not mean that the guns cannot be legally sold out of state as part of the estate administration, or that an out of state relative cannot lawfully inherit them.

True. And under federal law firearms that are inherited by specific bequest can be shipped directly from the executor to the heir without having to go through an FFL.

[rebs]

I have also heard stories where confiscated guns were never returned to anyone, heir or other wise. They simply disappeared from the possession of the police.
Case in point a friend turned in his pistols when he moved to a new state because it was the law since he didn't have a valid permit in the new state. The police were supposed to hold them until he got his new permit. He turned in 5 pistols and only got back 2, the 3 most expensive ones were lost while in police possession. They basically told him they didn't know who could have removed them from police storage and there was nothing they could do about it. He was simply out the 3 guns.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by rebs

I have also heard stories where confiscated guns were never returned to anyone, heir or other wise. They simply disappeared from the possession of the police.
Case in point a friend turned in his pistols when he moved to a new state because it was the law since he didn't have a valid permit in the new state. The police were supposed to hold them until he got his new permit. He turned in 5 pistols and only got back 2, the 3 most expensive ones were lost while in police possession. They basically told him they didn't know who could have removed them from police storage and there was nothing they could do about it. He was simply out the 3 guns.

"Nothing they could do about it"? Guns entusted to them for safekeeping should at the least be subject to the same protocols as evidence in criminal proceedings. That department doesn't have a log of who accesses what it their evidence room, or their arms room? BS. They just don't want to investigate -- for obvious reasons. Guns don't just "disappear."

However, I suspect that such shenanigans are not limited to that department. A few years ago I went to the indoor range where I often shoot, opened the door from the parking lot, and nearly walked into a HUGE gun safe that was on the landing just inside the door. Turns out it was the entire gun collection of a man who was going through a divorce and had been served with a protective order -- which meant that he couldn't possess or have access to firearms until the order was lifted. Rather than entrust his guns to the local police (who, to their credit, didn't want to be responsible for them anyway), he preferred to pay the FFL a fee and have the entire armory stored at the range.

That safe stayed there for at least six months, probably longer. And then one day -- it was gone. End of story.

[44 AMP]

Most of the time, most places, things like this do not happen, but, there have been cases of police taking guns (for any reason) and refusing to return them. Once case I heard of (ages ago) a judge ordered the return (finding in favor of the gun owner) and the police still refused.

They did cut him a check, though....

To my mind, there are things that money cannot replace. Just one example is my grandfather's shotgun, which has been in my family over 100 years and will someday go to my most suitable grandchild. The market value of that gun is a only few hundred dollars. The emotional and historical value to my family is not something that can be calculated in money.

Having a gun like that "legally" stolen by uniformed bureaucrats with badges would be a tremendous tragedy.

[wogpotter]

Most of the time, most places, things like this do not happen, but, there have been cases of police taking guns

Let me testify based on first hand personal experience.

I had a rather distinctive match rifle. It had a stock made of an early type of laminated wood, back before such stocks were "in". Because of that & the thumb-hole configuration it was a stand out in a crowd, or on a firing line. The light/dark wood's "tiger striping" was highly visible, very unusual & quite eye-catching, even though that wasn't the purpose of the wood choice. These were primarily made, pretty much exclusively, by an individual, who I happened to know. "Plywood" stocks were considered Gauche at the time & so were rare.

A shooting occurred & the recovered projectile was identified as having been fired from that exact type & caliber of rifle. The shooting was high profile as well, a convicted (& extraordinarily depraved rape/killer who violated the victims after death & specialized in nurses) psychopath was only able to be given a light sentence based on technicalities. When he was released after a very short sentence he was shot dead exactly as he exited the prison property by an unknown & never identified marksman.

Because of the outcry all rifles of that caliber & type in the region were called in for ballistic testing, mine included. Being a good citizen group all the shooters with the same model & I complied willingly to help expedite the investigation.

Months pass & the match shooting season begins. Everyone I talked to had their rifles returned, but not me. I inquired at the local police station & the firearms Sargent agreed to pursue it as it was abnormally long. Time passed & he got stonewalled, he was quite frustrated by the process. Meanwhile I'm shooting matches with a (technically quasi-legally) borrowed rifle. We were most of the way through the season & during a break for swapping ends I wandered down the firing line "checking out the competition" a fairly normal thing to do several others were doing the exact same thing.

Guess what I see? Yup a tiger-striped rifle identical to mine! I went over to look as it was obviously someone else who had the same custom stock maker. Now it gets weirder, it had the same serial number!

I checked with the R/O & guess who was registered to that point on the firing line? The PD from the town where my rifle was sent for testing.

The firearms Sergeant & I subsequently discovered my rifle had been "lost in processing, after legal surrender" & they had to both financially re-reimburse me (that took 3 years) & have the documented serial number struck off as "Lost in Custody" & the "slot" cleared on my permit, so I could never be involved if it ever came up on a "hot sheet".

[Armed_Chicagoan]

Dominic Saraceno, a Buffalo defense attorney, said he anticipates legal challenges. He is concerned that family members may simply allow police to retrieve the guns while not realizing their value.

Ah, the age-old fear that our significant others will sell our firearms after we die for what we said we paid for them...

[DaleA]

wogpotter-could you have raised a stink right there at the match and called the police when you recognized your stolen ('cause in my opinion that's what it was, stolen) rifle on the line?

That's a very distressing story.

[kilimanjaro]

No kidding, whoever walked that $1000 rifle out of the storage room knew it wasn't his. At least one sworn officer needs to be fired, for cause, and jailed for grand larceny.

When you egregiously violate the public trust, that's what needs to happen. See how someone likes spending the rest of his working life as a mall security guard or line cook.

[zach_]

Wogpoter, was the rifle insured through your home owners insurance? If you were reimbursed from the man, I guess they might not do anything. I would still let them know what happened. They might be able to help. Personally, I would want to buy the gun back for the reimbursement price.

One thing. Do you often travel through the jurisdiction where your gun was stolen?

[wogpotter]

I really can't comment on what happened after the tale described.

I assume the relevant authorities did what was necessary for justice to be served. This was long a go & far away where legit Police despised "bent" one far more than "honest" criminals.

[zach_]

I see. It still sucks. I hope I would be able to handle the situation at the event as well as you did.

[wogpotter]

It was a different world.

I was on friendly terms with the local PD, I was on good terms with the local firearms sergeant as well. We respected the police officer for doing a hard unpleasant, but necessary job. They treated us with respect as we'd proven we were good, responsible individuals. There was very little of the combativeness between the two at that time in that place. In a way it made the actions of the individual more shocking as it was so unusual.

Because of that once you passed the information to the authorities you had a sure knowledge that it would be dealt with appropriately.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by wogpotter

Because of that once you passed the information to the authorities you had a sure knowledge that it would be dealt with appropriately.

From your narrative, it doesn't sound like it was dealt with at all.

[TimSr]

NY has dug up this old law that has largely ignored for ages, and is simply exploiting it to the extent that people's ignorance of their rights during a time of grief will allow it. From what I read, (no link, I don't remember where), there is a 10 day period and a procedure for heirs to applly for the required permits, but if they are anaware, and caught off guard, as is common with people grieving, they will snag up every gun that the relatives think they have to relenquish. They will also not inform them of what guns they do not have to give up, or about their procedural rights for hanging on to them.

It is my understanding that these intimidation tactics are not a statewide policy of policing, but rather a Buffalo PD abuse, though I'm sure there are other PDs in NY that intimidate gun owners.

[wogpotter]

From your narrative, it doesn't sound like it was dealt with at all.

Then you mis read it.