Visitors (tourists) & gun ranges/rentals?

[Evan Thomas]

So basically, your non-resident, visiting alien can't legally do anything at a range that would involve holding a gun or ammunition.

So all those ranges in Vegas that cater to foreign tourists are breaking the law? Somebody had better tell the ATF about this.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Vanya

So all those ranges in Vegas that cater to foreign tourists are breaking the law?...

I have no explanation. If anyone sees any flaws in my analysis or knows of any authority to the contrary, I'd be very interested.

I would in fact be happy to find a good reason why my conclusions are wrong. I'm with a group teaching an monthly NRA Basic Handgun class. We supply the guns and ammunition. From time to time a foreign national on a student visa (or other non-immigrant visa) would like to take the class. We'd like to be able to accommodate him/her, but don't see how we could do so legally.

If we had solid grounds for concluding it would be lawful, we'd be happy. But none of us are interested in exposing ourselves to potential federal criminal liability.

[Jim Watson]

It seems to my lay eye that attending a designated shooting range is a "sporting purpose" exemption under y 2 A above which says "admitted to the United States for lawful hunting OR sporting purposes".

Otherwise the Canadians shooting alongside my friend in Phoenix last week should not have been allowed to compete.
Not to mention the Japanese taking shooting vacations to the USA.
Etc., etc.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

It seems to my lay eye that attending a designated shooting range is a "sporting purpose" exemption under y 2 A above which says "admitted to the United States for lawful hunting OR sporting purposes".

Otherwise the Canadians shooting alongside my friend in Phoenix last week should not have been allowed to compete.
Not to mention the Japanese taking shooting vacations to the USA....

The statute says, "admitted to the United States for lawful hunting or sporting purpose." That means that the reason for the visit is hunting or a sporting purpose, not just general tourism or to go to school or to conduct business. So someone coming to the U. S. to participate in a shooting competition is in the clear.

As far as the Japanese shooting vacations, I used to see quite a few of visiting Japanese groups at the range. I haven't seen one for a long time.

[Tom Servo]

So all those ranges in Vegas that cater to foreign tourists are breaking the law? Somebody had better tell the ATF about this.

I was mistaken on this, and apparently have been for quite some time, as well. I think we all have been.

As Frank says, I can find no way around the prohibition. It appears we've all been breaking the law the whole time. I'm also going to lose some business (and some goodwill--teaching tourists is fun!) over this.

However, it beats the alternative. The reason we haven't seen clampdowns on it is that it's probably beneath the notice of law enforcement. I wouldn't want to be the test case, though.

[Evan Thomas]

The reason we haven't seen clampdowns on it is that it's probably beneath the notice of law enforcement. I wouldn't want to be the test case, though.

No, indeed -- who would?!

[Jim Watson]

So, a visiting foreigner has to state in his papers the purpose of his visit?
And if he does not put "shooting sports", he can't legally go shooting, right?

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

...a visiting foreigner has to state in his papers the purpose of his visit?

The statutes say what they say. My group will not enroll a foreign national for our class unless we have decided that we have no reason to believe he's prohibited under them.

Others may do as they wish, but we feel that we have too much personally at stake.

[shooterdownunder]

So, a visiting foreigner has to state in his papers the purpose of his visit?
And if he does not put "shooting sports", he can't legally go shooting, right?

Last time I went to the US all I was asked was business or pleasure.

[wogpotter]

Last time I went to the US all I was asked was business or pleasure.

Same here, every time. Even the one where I was carrying 100' of braided 3/4" pressure hose. I said "Pleasure" & they said "Fine, how long are you staying"?

I always wondered if they even listen to the answers after that?

[NateKirk]

Why wouldn't they be able to rent a gun at a range?

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by NateKirk

Why wouldn't they be able to rent a gun at a range?

See post 21.

[dakota.potts]

Who's to say that the person coming to the US to shoot at Battlefield Vegas or take a Frank Ettin class isn't doing it to fulfill a bucket list item of shooting firearms at a shooting range and then using them for sporting purposes? It seems to me that taking an involved shooting class or shooting firearms at a target on a controlled range would both constitute sporting purposes. Is there any case law on this?

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by dakota.potts

Who's to say that the person coming to the US to shoot at Battlefield Vegas or take a Frank Ettin class...

Perhaps a federal grand jury -- that's the problem.

Originally Posted by dakota.potts

...It seems to me...

What it seems to you doesn't mean squat. It's what it seems to a federal prosecutor, a federal grand jury, and a federal judge that will count. I don't want to find out. Among other things, finding out will cost a lot of money. You're awfully free with my money.

Originally Posted by dakota.potts

...Is there any case law on this?...

There's case law, some of which I've cited, on what constitutes possession and the interstate commerce issue.

[Frank Ettin]

However, in doing some more research in response to Dakota Potts' post, I found some information that makes things more complicated.

The statutes I cited prohibit possession of guns or ammunition by aliens admitted present in the United States on a non-immigrant visa. Apparently there is a program under which a foreign national from one of a number of participating countries my enter the United States for a limited period of time without a visa.

Apparently ATF has decided that lawfully entering the United States as a non-immigrant when permitted without a visa is not the same as entering with a non-immigrant visa, and therefore such a non-resident alien in not subject to the 18 USC 922(g)(5) prohibition. It looks like this ATF interpretation was made around 2012. I just stumbled on it since it doesn't seem to have been incorporated in the regulations of the ATF (or if it has, I missed it).

It looks like the Visa Waiver program applies to visitor from most European countries, several Asian countries, and one South American country. It doesn't include any Middle Eastern or African countries. The requirements for a visa are waived only for visits for business or pleasure not to exceed 90 days.

As far as I can see all this does for us in make it that much more difficult to know whether you can let a foreigner shoot your gun without your risking federal prison. I think, to make things manageable, I'd still insist on seeing a hunting license.

[carguychris]

There is a similar and possibly broader visa exemption for visitors from Canada, who (to paraphrase the U.S. Department of State) do NOT require visitor, business, transit or other visas to enter the United States under almost all circumstances.

However, exceptions DO exist, notably for Canadians entering the USA for work, those with criminal histories, and to U.S. citizens' spouses, fiances, and children who enter pursuant to gaining lawful permanent residency:

http://canada.usembassy.gov/visas/in...ing-visas.html

A particularly notable visa requirement exists for a Canadian with a criminal history, who- as I interpret the State Dept. page- is immediately required to have a special visa upon discovery of the person's record by U.S. authorities, even if the person is already in the United States (a situation which would presumably result in deportation order in many cases). Furthermore, this requirement applies to drunk driving convictions AND to convictions for which a pardon has been issued by Canadian authorities:

http://canada.usembassy.gov/visas/vi...igibility.html

The bottom line is that, as with the visa waiver program discussed by Frank, there are enough conditions under which a nonimmigrant Canadian would require a visa that IMHO it's arguably still advisable for a public shooting range or other public organization to insist on seeing a hunting license.

[wogpotter]

Wow, what a can o' worms I inadvertently opened with a "simple" question.

[btmj]

And this whole legislative complexity illustrates (as if we needed more examples) the unintended consequences of overly complex and numerous laws.

Was it the intent of congress to ban foreign visitors to the USA from renting and shooting guns at a firing range? Probably not. For a tourist coming to the USA, getting to plop down $50 to shoot a pistol or rifle might rank right up there with seeing a giant sequoia tree or attending an NFL football game... i.e. only in America... Many people visit the US from countries where it is nearly impossible to legally shoot a firearm for pleasure.

Whatever congress was trying to do, gun rentals at a range is extremely low-risk as far as national security is concerned.

[shooterdownunder]

Just got the below reply back from the ATF

Good Morning Sir,



Thank you for your inquiry to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). This is in response to your recent email, in which you asked about whether you can visit a shooting range and shoot firearms at the range.



Based on the information contained in your email, you may visit a shooting range as long as you are not prohibited from possessing a firearm. In the way of information, the following categories are prohibiting factors:



Federal law provides that convicted felons and certain other persons are prohibited from possessing or receiving firearms and ammunition. These categories include any person:



• Under indictment or information in any court for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;

• convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;

• who is a fugitive from justice;

• who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance;

• who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;

• who is an illegal alien;

• who has been discharged from the military under dishonorable conditions;

• who has renounced his or her United States citizenship;

• who is subject to a court order restraining the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of the intimate partner; or

• who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence [18 USC 922(g) and (n)].



We trust the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry. Should you have additional questions, please contact your local ATF office. A listing of ATF office phone numbers can be found at: http://www.atf.gov/contact/field.html.



Regards,

Firearms Industry Programs Branch, ATF



The my original email to them was:
Hi. I am an Australian citizen with a state issued firearms license. I am planning to visit the the US next year and was checking if it would be legal for me to visit a shooting range and use a range owned firearm.

Regards,

Peter

[Tom Servo]

Based on the information contained in your email, you may visit a shooting range as long as you are not prohibited from possessing a firearm.

The problem is, without a hunting license or dispensation from the Attorney General, a nonimmigrant is still prohibited from possessing a firearm. For some reason, they didn't expound on that.

I have also contacted them and am waiting to hear back. In the meantime, sorry to say it, but I wouldn't recommend relying on that letter.

[Frank Ettin]

In general, casual communication with ordinary service staff at a regulatory agency should not be relied upon with regard to any but the most mundane or routine administrative matters.

When I was working for a living I had any number of occasions to request formal, written advisory opinions from various agencies (although never from ATF). Pretty much every agency has procedures for making such requests, but they are more involved than just sending an email. Such requests need to be carefully crafted to assure that all possible, material information is provided, because the response will be based on exactly the information provided; and any variance makes the response potentially useless. Such requests are generally responded to by a lawyer in the agency's legal division.

[Tom Servo]

Well, I finally received a reply:

Thank you for your inquiry to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). This is in response to your recent email, in which you asked about nonimmigrant aliens possessing firearms.

A nonimmigrant alien is prohibited from possessing any firearm or ammunition unless he or she meets one of the exceptions provided under 18 U.S.C. 922(y)(2). This prohibition applies in all situations, including renting a firearm or using a firearm owned by another person.

Please be aware that there may be State laws that pertain to your proposed activity. You need to contact your State’s Attorney General Office to inquire about the laws and possible restrictions in your State concerning firearms. A list of their offices is available online at www.naag.org.

We trust the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry. Should you have additional questions, please contact your local ATF office. A listing of ATF office phone numbers can be found at: http://www.atf.gov/content/contact-us/local-atf-office.

To put things in perspective, this is from the Firearms Industry Programs Branch, the exact same branch that responded to shooterdownunder by implying there was no problem.