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Old July 15, 2020, 04:36 PM   #51
jimku
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Originally Posted by raimius View Post
Jimku, please go get some training and education on self-defense laws and tactics. Your previous posts show several glaring falsehoods in legal standards and tactics.
I belong to USCCA. They defend shooters nation-wide. What I am saying is exactly what they have told me. They provide extensive education and training.
If I ever have to use my gun I will do three things: call 911, call USCCA, SHUT UP AND NOT SAY A WORD until their attorney arrives.
The primary goal in self-defense is to stop the attack ... not kill the dude.
One well-placed shot will usually accomplish that. Beyond that and you risk a murder charge.
Senselessly perforating the attacker with 4 - 6 additional holes by emptying your revolver into him will most likely land you in a royal mess.

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/
https://youtu.be/wLrZ_LR69Ho
https://youtu.be/exQN1X8lFAQ

Last edited by jimku; July 15, 2020 at 06:04 PM.
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Old July 15, 2020, 07:57 PM   #52
SHR970
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jimku wrote: One well-placed shot will usually accomplish that. Beyond that and you risk a murder charge.
Funny that you would mention this since in the news today is a video of and up close and personal shooting involving a LEO. Not only do we have a body cam but we also have a home surveilance system perspective. Link to story / video

Personally I was trained and qualified by a LAPD sergeant who taught us to Mozambique them. I was licensed for several years in Kali for on the job carry. As this video shows, firing once and hoping that you get that stop is not something I personally will bet my life on; especially when carrying a mouse gun. I will always rather be judged by 12 than carried by six.
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Old July 16, 2020, 03:46 PM   #53
Bartholomew Roberts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimku
Even if I did buy into the line of stuff quoted, 9 rounds rapid fire at a head at 7 yards has a VERY high probability of at least ONE of them going into the mouth or an eye socket.
vs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimku
One well-placed shot will usually accomplish that. Beyond that and you risk a murder charge. Senselessly perforating the attacker with 4 - 6 additional holes by emptying your revolver into him will most likely land you in a royal mess.
That strikes me as contradictory advice; but there are no shortage of well-documented gunfights that didn’t end even though there was a well-placed shot.
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Old July 16, 2020, 05:43 PM   #54
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so, I am assuming you are talking a very short barreled mouse gun. It would have to be ball ammo for either (or perhaps the fancy lehigh penetrator stuff) due to inadequate penetration with ball let alone hollow point for both. With that being a given 32 is bigger, its centerfire, and it is not rimmed, and it is generally heavier. If I am going to choose a round that is going to under penetrate I would go 32.
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Old July 16, 2020, 06:08 PM   #55
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Shadow: If you look at the luckgunner link and look at the performance of ball out of a 32 Keltech you will find that under penetration is not a problem. Even for a couple flavors of HP you generally (not always) have adequate penetration as well as some expansion. Fiocchi Ball out of a Beretta 81 wil OVERpentrate per the FBI protocol*.

*FBI protocol: something that most keyboard warriors cite but have little to no understanding on WHY and what FOR. The most common citation involves only one of several parts of the protocol.
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Old July 16, 2020, 06:37 PM   #56
jimku
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Originally Posted by SHR970 View Post
Funny that you would mention this since in the news today is a video of and up close and personal shooting involving a LEO. Not only do we have a body cam but we also have a home surveilance system perspective. Link to story / video

Personally I was trained and qualified by a LAPD sergeant who taught us to Mozambique them. I was licensed for several years in Kali for on the job carry. As this video shows, firing once and hoping that you get that stop is not something I personally will bet my life on; especially when carrying a mouse gun. I will always rather be judged by 12 than carried by six.
Civilians are not police officers. An officer has to apprehend the culprit. All we civilians are actually legally OK to do in self-defense is to stop the attack. Completely different requirements and completely different consequences. And if I am judged by 12 and found guilty of murder, or even simply judged by 12 and bankrupted by legal fees, my life will be ruined and over and I might as well be carried by 6 and very well might end up taking my own life.

Last edited by jimku; July 16, 2020 at 06:53 PM.
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Old July 16, 2020, 06:46 PM   #57
jimku
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Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts View Post
vs.



That strikes me as contradictory advice; but there are no shortage of well-documented gunfights that didn’t end even though there was a well-placed shot.
Not contradictory at all ... two DIFFERENT SUBJECTS.

One subject: the statement that a little 22 mouse gun can't be lethal unless you hit the bad guy in the eyeball. A completely absurd statement, BUT 9 rounds rapid fire in the face WILL most likely accomplish that.

Next, totally unrelated subject: That one shot is usually all that is required to stop a fight. If I had meant always I would have said always.
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Old July 16, 2020, 07:25 PM   #58
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Quote:
jimku wroteAll we civilians are actually legally OK to do in self-defense is to stop the attack.
Did you actually WATCH the video? He made full contact with the officer after 4-5 rounds discharged which required a TAP, RACK, and FIRE drill and a mag dump to STOP the attack.

I don't want to be an Adam Henry but you need to take a critical look at that video once again because she was in full contact with the subject even while retreating and firing. If you can't see it, you are BLIND. He took a full (more than 10 round ) mag to STOP.
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Old July 16, 2020, 11:07 PM   #59
jimku
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Originally Posted by SHR970 View Post
Did you actually WATCH the video? He made full contact with the officer after 4-5 rounds discharged which required a TAP, RACK, and FIRE drill and a mag dump to STOP the attack.

I don't want to be an Adam Henry but you need to take a critical look at that video once again because she was in full contact with the subject even while retreating and firing. If you can't see it, you are BLIND. He took a full (more than 10 round ) mag to STOP.
OK, I watched the video ... five times. And I have to say ... I can't help it if the cop was a lousy shot and went for all gut shots or "center body mass" in "spray and pray" fashion. Sorry. But that said, yes if the perp has a weapon in his hand you have to keep firiing until he can no longer raise that weapon. But ONE well-placed shot to the HEAD would have STOPPED it in an instant, and all it would have taken in that particular instance given the range and movement was just a little more deliberate better-aimed fire. And no, at no time was there any full contact ... the perp never even touched her or even got within reach of her. And yes, I can understand panic and adrenalin ... but that said, keeping a calm, level head and compete presence of mind is paramount, especially for we civilians.

And no, I don't think you are an Adam Henry. I had to look that one up ... thanks for the education. I am not trying to be one either. I deeply respect our police officers and support them 100%, especially given current events, and I am glad the officer survived!

I did have to pull a gun once ... against five thugs intent on dragging a young lady from her car and raping her. I had a S&W model 19 and the five of them just kept deliberately walking towards me. They were only about 5 feet away and I was just starting to squeeze the trigger on the ring leader when I heard a police siren and they turned and beat feet. The patrolman pulled into the parking lot and didn't even take my gun. He told me he was sorry he stopped me 'cause otherwise I might have shot the Adam Henrys and saved the city on-going problems because he knew who they were and all five of them were Class-A Certified #1 Adam Henrys constantly hurting people.

Last edited by jimku; July 17, 2020 at 12:20 AM.
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Old July 17, 2020, 12:15 AM   #60
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Jimku- please tell us how many self defense shootings YOU have been involved in.
Were you able to make a head shot?
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Old July 17, 2020, 12:20 AM   #61
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I've been known to carry the .32 ACP pistol as a main gun and a .22lrf pocket pistol as the second gun.

The reasons for this are simple.

In the 90 + degree heat and humidity I dress for the weather.

Whether it is a Beretta 81, a Taurus 732, or Taurus PLY-22 things are covered.

I do not care what others think of this as what works for me may well not work for others. What works for you, fine. I go with what works for me.

Due to an uptick in violence around here though I've upgraded to a Taurus G2C or a G2S in 9x19 and carry spare ammo. The back up gun is still a .32 ACP pistol.

Some carry a spare gun or ammo ( good ideas) and some do not. Do what works for you. Just having a gun is the thing. If it fits your needs then, fine. No problem.
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Old July 17, 2020, 12:28 AM   #62
jimku
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Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs View Post
Jimku- please tell us how many self defense shootings YOU have been involved in.
Were you able to make a head shot?
I just did, directly above, and yes, it would have been five head shots if I had been forced to shoot. The only reason I wasn't was because of my level head and absolute confidence that I could have put all five of them down. Most people would have fired much sooner. It's pretty hard to miss at 5 - 10 feet ... that is if you have enough self-control to keep from getting rattled. But whether or not I can or could have made head shots is totally irrelevant to the fact that a single head shot will stop an attacker instantly. That is firmly in the "Well, DUH" category. So, if you can't consistently make a quick head shot at 7 yards or so, it might just behoove you to practice until you can. It just might save your life. And while you're at it, you might practice head-size targets at that distance that are moving side to side. I do. You do whatever floats your boat.

Last edited by jimku; July 17, 2020 at 02:57 AM.
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Old July 17, 2020, 06:25 AM   #63
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Well after watching that video I don’t think there is any question that woman wasn’t cool and in control. To clear a malfunction and shoot him that many times to put him down was clearly a product of good training and a cool head. And no, trying for a head shot and risking a miss sending stray bullets all over a residential neighborhood is not a good idea, and most likely not part of her training I would guess.
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Old July 17, 2020, 07:16 AM   #64
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This discussion has gone completely off the rails at this point. We have gone from discussing the relative merits of two specific calibers of handgun round (the original question) to debating how many shots we are legally allowed to take, and whether or not it's better to take a head shot than to aim for center-of-mass.

The original question has been answered, with links to objective data to support the answer.

Closed.
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