May 10, 2019, 08:40 PM | #1 |
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Copying Form 4473?
I am not sure if this query fits the L&CR section perfectly; however, being at heart a question about what is and is not "permitted" by Law or by Rule, I thought this a good place to start. Please correct me if I am over-running my headlights here...
At the end of an FFL Transfer with a local firearms dealer, I asked if I could get a copy of the form 4473 I had just filled out (*just* "my" -- the Purchaser's -- part). I was told, "NO!" with a brief explanation that making a copy of a government document is against federal rules. The proprietor did not come right out and say that it was illegal to make the requested copy, but strongly implied that my request was unlawful -- and the temperature in the shop seemed to drop a good 20 degrees or so... I did not whine, beg, plead, argue, or otherwise "push" my request; I just said, "Okay," completed the transaction, and departed... Because I hate being ignorant about such things, I went looking for references on government documents in general and Form 4473 in particular. Except for Federal Identification & Credentials, I could find nothing that seemed to prohibit copying Federal Forms per se. Indeed, form 4473 is available for download in PDF format from the ATF site. While I found some general rules about copying "private" data that might be entered on such forms, I was only asking the dealer for a copy of the part of the form that contained *my* data... I do my level best to obey the law. That obedience is greatly facilitated by knowing what the law says. I find this knowledge "sticks" better if I can read the pertinent legalese directly... So, what I am seeking to learn here is whether providing the Customer with a copy of the Customer's part of 4473 is truly prohibited. If it is prohibited, I am also hoping somebody has a citation to the controlling rules and regulations... Hopefully, somebody can help me out! Thanks!! -- 101 -- |
May 10, 2019, 10:23 PM | #2 | |
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I found this in a discussion on another forum dating to 2012. There was a link to the BATFE source, but the link is now dead. Fortunately, someone in the discussion followed the link and quoted it:
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May 11, 2019, 01:44 AM | #3 |
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Thank you!
This lets me know, even though the rules may have changed since my last purchase years ago -- or even since 2012 -- that I wasn't totally off-base in asking for a copy. -101- |
May 11, 2019, 05:12 AM | #4 |
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Not that I've done any research on this yet, but I'm unaware of any law prohibiting a purchaser from getting a copy of the 4473 related to his or her own purchase.
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May 11, 2019, 09:56 AM | #5 | |
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Here's another quote from a BATFE communication. This is from a post on 1919A4.com in 2019:
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Link to a BATFE newsletter from 2002. Scroll to page 2, lower right: https://www.atf.gov/file/56411/download |
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May 11, 2019, 10:07 AM | #6 |
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Common Little Tin God Syndrome.
Do you have a regular bill of sale? If so, is it from the seller or Mr Know It All? |
May 11, 2019, 10:45 AM | #7 | |
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May 11, 2019, 01:39 PM | #8 |
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How does asking the FFL to make a copy bring up the fear of losing a 4473?
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May 11, 2019, 01:41 PM | #9 | |
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May 11, 2019, 04:32 PM | #10 |
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The dealer; he knows the rules and he is going to make you abide by them. Right.
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May 11, 2019, 04:41 PM | #11 |
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There isn’t a single federal form in existence for which a photocopy itself is automatically illegal... all depends on the content of the form and what such a copy is used for... you can make a photocopy of your own ID all you want. Crazy FUDnuts.
Andrew - Lancaster, CA NRA Life Member, CRPA member, Calguns.net contributor, CGF / SAF / FPC / CCRKBA / GOA / NAGR / NRA-ILA contributor, USCCA member - Support your defenders! |
May 11, 2019, 05:10 PM | #12 |
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Why would you want one?
Anymore, most are going paperless anyway
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May 11, 2019, 05:15 PM | #13 |
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To verify the submission was error free. Andrew - Lancaster, CA NRA Life Member, CRPA member, Calguns.net contributor, CGF / SAF / FPC / CCRKBA / GOA / NAGR / NRA-ILA contributor, USCCA member - Support your defenders! |
May 11, 2019, 06:51 PM | #14 |
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If it wasn't you wouldn't get approved.
Just bought another P365 this afternoon; paperless 4473, whole process took about 10 minutes. I have the gun and the sales receipt, so it must have been good.
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"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa |
May 11, 2019, 07:34 PM | #15 | |
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Their ball; their game !!!
Quote:
Somewhat in defense of FFL dealers, I have heard some pretty confusing encounters between them and the ATF. You could say that many dealers are just following their own CYA program. I had one out of state FFL that would only ship a Muzzleloader to my local FFL. My local FFL did not know what to do except call me to let me know it was in. I know of other FFL's that gave up their license. If you ever buy a firearm from Walmart, you will see how involved their transactions are.….. Be Safe !!!
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May 12, 2019, 07:42 AM | #16 | |
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He's wrong, of course, but his mistake may not be the result of malice or arrogance.
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May 12, 2019, 08:27 AM | #17 | |
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May 12, 2019, 08:38 AM | #18 |
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consider taking a picture
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L2R |
May 12, 2019, 10:05 AM | #19 |
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Again, many are going paperless and it involves several screens - you going to use your camera to do that? Again, WHY? Seems to be ado about nothing that has any importance.
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"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa |
May 12, 2019, 10:37 AM | #20 |
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I agree. I dont see the reason for wanting a copy. The face page is all your info. You have the guns make, model & SN. You have a receipt with the FFL’s info. What else do you need for any records keeping you want?
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May 12, 2019, 12:21 PM | #21 | ||
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I really can’t see any reason why the OP would want a copy of his portion of the 4473. So he needs a record of his own name, address, place of birth, height, weight, sex, birth date, SSN, ethnicity, race, and a list of the various crimes he hasn’t committed?
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May 12, 2019, 07:10 PM | #22 | |
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Quote:
Some manufacturers ask for a copy of the first three pages of the Form 4473 as proof of purchase for their rebate. I hate those manufacturers.
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May 12, 2019, 07:34 PM | #23 |
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Who? I have never seen a mfg, ask for a 4473; the sales receipt, the bar code, etc., some downloaded form, yes.
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"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa |
May 12, 2019, 07:41 PM | #24 |
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I know that manufacturers often require a copy of the 4473 for gun store employee sales incentive points, but I’ve never had a customer ask for a copy of the 4473 for a consumer rebate. They’ve always been fine with just a regular receipt.
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May 12, 2019, 07:45 PM | #25 | ||
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4473 , copying documents |
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