The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > NFA Guns and Gear

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old July 25, 2020, 03:38 PM   #1
dajowi
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 2, 2005
Posts: 1,188
Auto-sear on a handgun

Anyone ever hear of an auto-sear installed on a pistol making it a submachine pistol?
dajowi is offline  
Old July 25, 2020, 03:53 PM   #2
Sharkbite
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2013
Location: Western slope of Colorado
Posts: 3,529
Yes. There is a replacement cover plate (with some additions) that turns a Glock pistol into a selective fire full auto.

A push button type selector on the rear of the slide selects semi or full. Installed on a G17, push the button and its in effect a G18
Sharkbite is offline  
Old July 25, 2020, 04:10 PM   #3
FITASC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2014
Posts: 5,801
Beretta had one as well with a small folding front grip
__________________
"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa
FITASC is online now  
Old July 25, 2020, 04:33 PM   #4
Sharkbite
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2013
Location: Western slope of Colorado
Posts: 3,529
Quote:
Beretta had one as well with a small folding front grip
Thats true. A number of companies have made full auto versions of their pistols. HK, Colt, Glock, Beretta to name a few. I took the OP to mean non-OEM modifications.
Sharkbite is offline  
Old July 25, 2020, 09:04 PM   #5
Machineguntony
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 22, 2013
Posts: 1,277
Here’s an article on it...



Any semi auto pistol can be made full auto quite easily with the requisite knowledge and tooling via lightening link principle. I know a few 07/02 FFL/SOTs who do it.

Making it select-fire is much more complicated...or it can be very easy if you don’t mind ATF kicking down your door at 5am.
__________________
Sent from Motorola DynaTac 8000x

Last edited by Machineguntony; July 26, 2020 at 03:27 PM.
Machineguntony is offline  
Old July 26, 2020, 06:28 AM   #6
armoredman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Location: Arizona
Posts: 4,975
This MAY be related to the Fox article about three arrested in Chicago for federal firearms violations. It was noted "...the firearm was equipped with an auto-sear device, or “switch,” allowing the gun to fire more than one shot without manually reloading.."
https://www.foxnews.com/us/three-men...ts-to-the-city
armoredman is offline  
Old July 26, 2020, 03:21 PM   #7
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 23,169
Quote:
"...the firearm was equipped with an auto-sear device, or “switch,” allowing the gun to fire more than one shot without manually reloading.."
Either this is incorrectly reported or the agent who is the source of the information is an idiot. Probably both.

to my way of thinking, every repeating pistol, has a "switch" that allows more than one shot without manually reloading, its called the TRIGGER!!!

Are these people really that stupid? Or do they just think we are??
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old July 30, 2020, 10:29 AM   #8
SIGSHR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 13, 2005
Posts: 4,570
Probably referring to a selector switch.
SIGSHR is offline  
Old August 1, 2020, 12:47 PM   #9
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 23,169
yes, they are probably referring to a selector switch, BUT, they are using terms incorrectly AND adding a completely bogus "definition".

An "auto sear" is NOT a selector switch. It maybe a part in the fire control group necessary for full auto fire, but its not the switch itself in any design I am familiar with, and some select fire guns don't even have an "auto sear".

but even worse is this...
Quote:
allowing the gun to fire more than one shot without manually reloading..
Just what is that supposed to mean? That's the gun is a repeater, holding more than one round of ammo?? Or that the gun is a semi auto, so it doesn't require manual operation of the action to reload the chamber??

Probably the latter, though I also get the impression that they are implying that "more than one shot without manually reloading" is a bad thing, as well.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old August 8, 2020, 01:40 PM   #10
Black Wolf
Member
 
Join Date: March 18, 2018
Location: Kansas
Posts: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
yes, they are probably referring to a selector switch, BUT, they are using terms incorrectly AND adding a completely bogus "definition".

An "auto sear" is NOT a selector switch. It maybe a part in the fire control group necessary for full auto fire, but its not the switch itself in any design I am familiar with, and some select fire guns don't even have an "auto sear".

but even worse is this...


Just what is that supposed to mean? That's the gun is a repeater, holding more than one round of ammo?? Or that the gun is a semi auto, so it doesn't require manual operation of the action to reload the chamber??

Probably the latter, though I also get the impression that they are implying that "more than one shot without manually reloading" is a bad thing, as well.
On top of that, there are SEMI auto guns with an "auto sear" it is simply called a "safety sear". The auto sear is not what causes FA, interrupting the disconnector is..... which typically results in "hammer follow" unless there is an AUTO SEAR to PREVENT the hammer from following prior to bolt closure.

Yea, ya don't have to know much about guns to write about em
Black Wolf is offline  
Old March 7, 2021, 10:58 PM   #11
Leviatano
Junior Member
 
Join Date: March 7, 2021
Posts: 9
H S Lebman of San Antonio made select fire 1911s before the NFA34. He may or may not have made some informally AFTER the law. +Lebman+Machine+pistol should get you info and images in your preferred search engine.

He grafted TSMG foregrips onto the forward frame. Some had compensators installed on the bushing. Examples exist in both .45ACP and .38 Super ACP.

Tyler, the SOT proprietor of Ozark Machinegun in Lebanon MO has one he's built as a post-sample for range rental. He, last I discussed it with him, could never get it reliable. The selector would bounce itself back into semi auto under recoil. He had trouble with getting through an entire magazine in full auto. At least it was so as of late summer/early fall 2020. So it's not even a range rental.

This gun was built as a visual copy of a Lebman pistol. Mechanically, it's based off a written description, but Tyler did not have an original to examine.

He has a website and a phone number. He's the only person I know who has actual hands-on with such a marvel.

Last edited by Leviatano; March 7, 2021 at 11:05 PM.
Leviatano is offline  
Old March 8, 2021, 01:50 AM   #12
tangolima
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2013
Posts: 2,444
Thanks. Interesting read. Lehman's 1911 wasn't select-fire though. It was full-auto only.

Edit: Auto sear is confusing, at least to me. I know the BATF considers the auto sear alone is a machine gun. Mechanically it is a device that catches the hammer / striker till the action is in battery. Some gun designs have such device, but they are not considered machine guns. So who determines an auto sear an auto sear? And how?

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Last edited by tangolima; March 8, 2021 at 02:36 AM.
tangolima is offline  
Old March 8, 2021, 11:10 AM   #13
cslinger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 14, 2002
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,931
Glock 18/17 conversions
Beretta 93r
Smith 659
HK VP70m
Stenchkin (spelling)
I THINK there were some HIPowers
Broomhandle Mauser

That is a few off the top of my head.

Most of these turn money to noise exceedingly fast but aren’t much good beyond that IMO.
__________________
"Is there anyway I can write my local gun store off on my taxes as dependents?"
cslinger is online now  
Old March 8, 2021, 02:09 PM   #14
Classic12
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 12, 2020
Posts: 342
They are fun toys for sure









Classic12 is offline  
Old March 9, 2021, 01:19 AM   #15
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 23,169
Quote:
Edit: Auto sear is confusing, at least to me. I know the BATF considers the auto sear alone is a machine gun. Mechanically it is a device that catches the hammer / striker till the action is in battery. Some gun designs have such device, but they are not considered machine guns. So who determines an auto sear an auto sear? And how?
The ATF considers the M16 auto sear a machine gun, a decision many of us still find incomprehensible.

To be clear, generally when speaking of the auto sear, one is referring to the auto sear from the M16 fire control group. It is named the auto sear by the maker, most likely because it performs the function of the sear during automatic fire.

Other guns have parts that do that in automatic fire and call them something other than auto sear. It is entirely up to the maker what they name the parts.

The "regular" sear catches and holds the hammer/striker until the action is in battery. Some designs use the regular sear during automatic fire, some save wear on the regular sear by transferring the load to a secondary or "auto sear" which catches the hammer/striker and then releases it when the action closes, as long as the trigger is held back.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old March 9, 2021, 03:32 AM   #16
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 23,582
Autosears are machineguns because the law clearly says they are.

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/...leE-chap53.htm

(b) Machinegun
The term “machinegun” means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old March 9, 2021, 07:11 AM   #17
Brit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 1,891
In the early 1960s, I was a new member of a Gun Club in the suburbs of Liverpool in Lancashire UK. They owned a Broomhandle Mauser!
The range was 20 yards in length. It was kept in a safe and as a joke, it was given to the new member of the Club, me. With 5 rounds of Sten Gun 9mm.
I was 25. One round hit the target, 4 went through the corrugated roof.

It was fixed by one of the executives.

I left the UK with my first wife, and two young children, in 1965 on the SS Auriana, a Greek-owned Ship for a 5-week voyage to Australia. Across the Indian Ocean, via the Suez Canal. For the so-called rest of our lives?

As I now reside in Florida, that obviously did not happen. I fired a Glock 18 in the Glock plant in Austria, at the invite of Gaston Glock whilst touring the Glock manufacturing facility. I was not too good that time either!
Brit is offline  
Old March 9, 2021, 09:12 AM   #18
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 16,842
Long ago there was a device for the 1911 that had the same argument as the bump stock and "binary trigger." Pull the trigger, the gun fires and cycles, the device resets the trigger. If you still have finger pressure on the trigger, it fires again... and again.
So you were "pulling the trigger" for every shot. But the mechanical reset was so quick, it gave effectively automatic fire.
Jim Watson is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2020 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.08371 seconds with 10 queries