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Old January 13, 2018, 09:40 AM   #1
Spats McGee
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Appleseed: I'm finally gonna do it!

I've been meaning to go to an Appleseed shoot for years. Somehow never got around to it. Until today. I just signed up for an Appleseed event at the end of April. Until then, I guess I'll scour the old threads for tidbits of information.

Wish me luck!
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Old January 13, 2018, 01:18 PM   #2
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Good for you! I (at least say I) want to do one too.
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Old January 13, 2018, 01:20 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spats McGee View Post
I've been meaning to go to an Appleseed shoot for years. Somehow never got around to it. Until today. I just signed up for an Appleseed event at the end of April. Until then, I guess I'll scour the old threads for tidbits of information.

Wish me luck!
Let me be the first to do that! May your weapon be reliable, your learning sharp and your skills earn you a Rifleman badge you'll be proud of for a long time to come.

Let us know how it goes -- I'm eager to do it when my time comes. All the best!

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Old January 14, 2018, 02:27 PM   #4
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Appleseed strikes me as an excellent idea. Even for experienced shooters. Pity our idiot government would frown on it.
Don't think luck is involved. More like, "Have fun.".
I believe their site has all the info you'd need. How much ammo, etc is on there. I think.
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Old January 14, 2018, 10:23 PM   #5
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Same here, I signed up for a 2 day event in the beginning of March and I just sighted in the new 10/22 this afternoon. The only item left to receive is the sling and I may upgrade the bolt release. The "how to prepare" is here:
https://appleseedinfo.org/how-to-prepare/

I set rolling 12 month goals, and doing a few Appleseeds including a known distance event, and earning the "Rifleman" badge seems like a fun way to add to the skill set.
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Old January 14, 2018, 10:43 PM   #6
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You will enjoy it.

FWIW: I have been to Appleseeds in five different states. Obviously I enjoy them and keep going back because I can't think of much that is more fun than spending a weekend shooting.

Another FWIW: there is now a Canadian version called Project Mapleseed. I had the honor of shooting with some of the founders of that organization at an Appleseed in Michigan.
https://mapleseedrifleman.com
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You know the rest. In the books you have read
How the British Regulars fired and fled,
How the farmers gave them ball for ball,
From behind each fence and farmyard wall,
Chasing the redcoats down the lane,
Then crossing the fields to emerge again
Under the trees at the turn of the road,
And only pausing to fire and load.
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Old January 15, 2018, 05:52 AM   #7
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Thank you all. I'm very excited about this. I am having a bit of a dilemma over which rifle to take, though. I have a 10/22, but it doesn't have the doohickeys to easily mount a sling, and it does have a scope (which I'm not sure I want to use).
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Old January 15, 2018, 10:31 AM   #8
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hi spats,,you are gona love the appleseed program,,,i really like the history lesson that went along with the shooting

i will tell you that you would be better off with a rifle that has a detachable magazine,,,there is a couple of reload 5 shot lessons there

i used a 10-22 and i took 4 magazines with me,,,and 500 rounds for the weekend,,,didnt use it all,,,maybe 300,, but you never know,,,,my rifle has a scope ,,,no biggy for them,,,there were a few people that had the peep sight set up,,,i dont think i could have done very well at my age point with open sights,,,the peeps would probably work for me,,,never was a scope guy but the older i get the better they seem to work,,,lol

get some sling studs put on your 10-22 and go have a great time,,,,you will definitely need a sling

i qualified 6 times for the weekend but i only got 1 patch,,,,,,,my best score was 238,,, it was great fun,,,i really want a winter seed patch,,,lol

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Old January 15, 2018, 11:08 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spats McGee
I am having a bit of a dilemma over which rifle to take, though. I have a 10/22, but it doesn't have the doohickeys to easily mount a sling, and it does have a scope (which I'm not sure I want to use).
A 10/22 is an ideal Appleseed rifle - in theory. But there are certainly other viable options if you're comfortable shooting those.

I have a 10/22 ideally set up for Appleseed (i.e., sling, peep sights) but I used my CZ452 UltraLux bolt rifle instead. In the end, your shots need not be perfect, but "good enough". The thing is, the margins between scoring rings get pretty small and the timer's running, so as long as I work the bolt and don't putz around between shots, I felt my accurate bolt rifle would be the better option over my so-so accurate semi-auto. I made Rifleman on my 2nd attempt, so I don't think I made bad call .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spats McGee
I guess I'll scour the old threads for tidbits of information.
Couple o' pointers:

• As mentioned, you don't need to make the perfect shot. Just don't make a bad one. IOW, don't sit there guzzling time trying for a perfect shot. You won't get through the string, and you don't need a perfect score anyway. Instead, see a shot that's "good enough", take it cleanly, and quickly move to the next & repeat. Conversely, don't let the timer pressure you into making bad pot shots, either. Again, you don't need perfect shots, but bad ones are really costly.

• If you're using a bolt rifle, immediately work the bolt after a shot and while you're transitioning to the next target, rather than after. And don't lift your head (i.e. break your cheek weld) while working the bolt.

• Hurry up and wait. In between strings, you're given the chance to go back to your gear to reload mags. Do that, and only that, then get back to the firing line and wait for the next command. Don't spend the time gabbing or fussing with your gear. If you do, you'll be hurried and not have your head in the right place when "fire" is called.

• When I went, the staff were familiar with, used and demo'd USGI slings. I had a 1907 sling, which, fortunately, I knew how to use (because they had no idea). If you're going to use something other than a GI sling, be sure you know how to use and adjust it ahead of time.

• IIRC, reloads are involved, so when setting up your gear at the firing line, specifically and consistently set your mags such that you can just reach down for a new one without searching for it.

• Bring a big thick pad for your support elbow. You'll spend a lot of time prone, and something under your support elbow would be very nice to have .

Good luck and let us know how it went!
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Old January 15, 2018, 11:45 AM   #10
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My piece of advice is to not spend a lot of time obsessing over your equipment. I realize this is an internet gun forum and as such, we enjoy discussing guns and related equipment.
However, over the years I have read posts like: "I am going to attend an Appleseed after I get done building a rifle for it.........." and things like that. Don't do that. Just go, no matter what you take.

My advice is to bring whatever you have. You say you have a 10/22, great. That is a good thing because that is what most people will be using. You absolutely need to be able to use a sling. So figure that out: mount sling attachment points on your stock or buy an aftermarket stock that has sling attachment points. Personally, I use Hogue over-molded stocks; they have sling attachment points on them, the 10/22 barreled action drops right into them, and they are not very expensive.

Sling: my advice is to use the standard USGI sling. Again, this is what almost everyone, if not everyone will be using. You can get one here: http://store.rwvaappleseed.com/page13.html

Use whatever sights are on the gun: don't worry about it. One thing though is that if you decide to use your scope get down in prone and make sure you have the correct eye relief to have a clear/full sight picture. Most people never shoot their rifle in prone: they shoot from a bench; and the scope needs to be at the correct distance from your eye for shooting from prone. In prone your eye will be closer to the scope. Fiddle around a little bit with getting into prone, sitting, standing to make sure your scope is at the right distance from your eye; at home, before you get to the Appleseed event.

You are going to need at least two magazines. Having a few more may be nice. You don't need any aftermarket magazines, the standard 10 round Ruger magazine is what you want. Having an extended magazine release is a very nice thing to have. You are going to be making magazine changes on the clock. The easier it is for you to change magazines, the better. Which brings us to another point about magazines. I have a whole bunch of factory Ruger 10/22 magazines. With some of them, I actuate the mag release and the magazines fall free. Other ones don't. Obviously the ones that fall free are the ones I use at Appleseed. I honestly can't tell you why some of them fall free: it might be slight dimensional differences from the manufacturing process, it might be wear on the magazine body............... I don't know. But, you might want to play around with your magazines to try to find ones that drop free.

Lastly, ammo. Obviously the first thing you want is ammo that functions reliably in your rifle. Malfunctions tend to rattle the shooter and result in poor performance.
Accuracy: in Appleseed, you are trying to achieve a minimum of 4 MOA accuracy. Most people think this is a joke. They will tell you about how their rifle will shoot half MOA............... And this might be true, however they are not shooting half MOA from positions. They are shooting half MOA from a benchrest. The philosophy of the 4 MOA thing is that Appleseed believes that you should be able to shoot a Rifleman score using a rack grade rifle and standard ball ammunition. Early on when I was first shooting Appleseed, I used Walmart bulk ammo. I practiced diligently and as I got better, and was shooting much tighter groups I realized that I was getting fliers. I knew I had executed all the steps of firing the shot and follow through and that shot should not have went where it did. I ended up trying different ammo and realized that by using the cheapest possible ammo, that I was leaving points on the table from fliers when it should have been a good shot. Don't get all hung up on ammo. Don't go overboard. But, I found that CCI Standard Velocity made a difference. Maybe a 10 point difference on an AQT over bulk ammo.
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You know the rest. In the books you have read
How the British Regulars fired and fled,
How the farmers gave them ball for ball,
From behind each fence and farmyard wall,
Chasing the redcoats down the lane,
Then crossing the fields to emerge again
Under the trees at the turn of the road,
And only pausing to fire and load.
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Old January 16, 2018, 05:17 AM   #11
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Thank you all for the advice. I really appreciate the time and effort you've taken to help me out here.

Believe it or not, I'm not really obsessing over which rifle to take. I only have a handful of rifles, and I'm not going to buy a new one just for this Appleseed. I'll just mount some sling hardware on my 10/22, pick up a sling, and she'll be fine. I've got about five 10-round magazines, so I'm good there.

I'm also not obsessed with winning, or a perfect shot. It'd be neat to earn the Rifleman badge, won't lie about that. However, I'm much more interested in just improving with a rifle. Of all the shooting I've ever done, only a relatively tiny fraction has been done with a rifle. Historically, I've been much more of a shotgun or pistol dude.

Ammo: In spite of having had my 10/22 for decades, I've never really tried to figure out which ammo she likes best. She's always been a plinker, and she's eaten every kind of crap ammo I shoved in the magazine, so I never really worried about whether she'd do better than Minute of Soup Can. I'll enjoy fixing that.
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Old January 16, 2018, 09:24 AM   #12
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Sounds good.

You probably know this, but there is no "winning" in the traditional sense of the word. This isn't a competition. You don't shoot against each other. They present the material and you try to do what they said. You will see yourself steadily improve.

Despite having been an avid shooter my whole life, I did not shoot a Rifleman score until the third time I attended. However, now I can shoot a Rifleman score virtually every time. Although I have never shot NRA Highpower, my understanding is that this is very similar in concept. And like that sport, the more you do it, the more you have epiphanies where all of the sudden you understand what they were trying to tell you and why it is so important.
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You know the rest. In the books you have read
How the British Regulars fired and fled,
How the farmers gave them ball for ball,
From behind each fence and farmyard wall,
Chasing the redcoats down the lane,
Then crossing the fields to emerge again
Under the trees at the turn of the road,
And only pausing to fire and load.
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Old January 25, 2018, 11:18 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. O'Heir View Post
Appleseed strikes me as an excellent idea. Even for experienced shooters. Pity our idiot government would frown on it.
Don't think luck is involved. More like, "Have fun.".
I believe their site has all the info you'd need. How much ammo, etc is on there. I think.
Something like Appleseed would be a GREAT idea over here in Singapore, to be honest. I think it could be very easily done with the right coaching and the ability to set up a weapon to each shooter's liking.

The hard part is convincing the right people -_-

One question though -- am I right to assume that targets are always 25m away, and longer distances are simulated by scaling them down? That means only rimfire ammo should be needed, if I have it correct.

But this thread isn't about me. Thanks for the great advice here and have a good one, Spats!

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Old January 25, 2018, 12:29 PM   #14
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"One question though -- am I right to assume that targets are always 25m away, and longer distances are simulated by scaling them down? That means only rimfire ammo should be needed, if I have it correct. "


Yes, the targets at a regular Appleseed event are at 25 meters and the targets are scaled down to simulate 100 yards (standing), 200 yards (sitting), 300 yards (rapid prone), and 400 yards (slow fire prone).
The targets are scaled down so that you are still trying to shoot 4 MOA.

There are full distance Appleseed events (called KD events) where you actually shoot at 100, 200, 300, and 400 yards. At least where I live, you have to have shot a Rifleman score at a regular Appleseed event in order to shoot a full distance Appleseed event. And this is the reason they want you to have shot a Rifleman score at a regular Appleseed before you attend a KD. You should have a handle on the fundamentals and now you are adding the knowledge of sight dope, and reading the wind.

The reason for the 25 meter distance is that it would allow more venues to host an Appleseed event. It is much easier to find a 25 meter range than it is to find a 400 yard range. In addition, this allows you to focus on the fundamentals of marksmanship without having to worry about sight dope, and wind.

Yes, today most Appleseed participants shoot a .22 LR rifle. However, when Appleseed first got started it was intended to be shot with a centerfire rifle. Back then, you could get military surplus rifles and ammunition from places like the CMP pretty inexpensively. So people originally were shooting with stuff like M1As and M1s. And at the time, you could get truck loads of 7.62 and .30-06 milsurp ammo. However in today's world, you can no longer easily buy surplus ammo and even if you can, it is expensive; so the whole thing has evolved into shooting with .22s. However, you don't HAVE to shoot a .22 if you don't want to. You can shoot anything you want to within reason. If you want to shoot a regular Appleseed event with an M1, you certainly can; I should say, that you can unless the range that is hosting the event has an issue with it. If the hosting range doesn't allow you to shoot larger bore rifles, it will say that when you sign up for the event. But, at most of the ones I have been to, you can shoot with anything you want. Although I have been to a couple where you were limited to .22s. Never the less, most people use .22s and most people use Ruger 10/22s FWIW.

Likewise with the KD shoots (at least the two that I have been to), most people were using an AR15. There were a couple people shooting M1As and at least one guy was shooting an FN-FAL. I think one guy was shooting an AK; but almost everybody was shooting an AR15.

There are lots of YouTube videos showing Project Appleseed events and videos talking about how the whole thing works. There are also various webpages that explain the whole thing, what equipment you need to bring and all that.

They are a lot of fun and I think that all but the most experienced shooters will get something out of attending one. If nothing else, you get exposed to the history of April 19, 1775. You also get to meet a bunch of good people. You get to see the facilities that the various clubs have to offer. And I can think of a lot worse things to do than spending two days shooting.
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You know the rest. In the books you have read
How the British Regulars fired and fled,
How the farmers gave them ball for ball,
From behind each fence and farmyard wall,
Chasing the redcoats down the lane,
Then crossing the fields to emerge again
Under the trees at the turn of the road,
And only pausing to fire and load.

Last edited by 444; January 25, 2018 at 12:40 PM.
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Old January 25, 2018, 12:44 PM   #15
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Appleseed strikes me as an excellent idea. Even for experienced shooters. Pity our idiot government would frown on it.
Don't think luck is involved. More like, "Have fun.".
I believe their site has all the info you'd need. How much ammo, etc is on there. I think.




Let me repeat that there is a Canadian version of this called Project Mapleseed.
https://mapleseedrifleman.com/
They also have a very active Facebook page.

I have shot with some of the original people involved in that group and they are a bunch of really good people aye ? I am a member of the organization as well as subscribed to their Facebook group. Even though I have never shot at one of their events, they have shot at numerous American events.
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You know the rest. In the books you have read
How the British Regulars fired and fled,
How the farmers gave them ball for ball,
From behind each fence and farmyard wall,
Chasing the redcoats down the lane,
Then crossing the fields to emerge again
Under the trees at the turn of the road,
And only pausing to fire and load.
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Old March 4, 2018, 10:09 AM   #16
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Good Morning Spats,

I completed 1 day of my Appleseed yesterday, and thought I would add some pointers for your event. First off, I loved it! It was mostly family's and about 50% kids of all ages. I particularly liked the history portion, and it is very relevant to the issues of today. It's something I think everyone should do, and it's great for kids.

The issues:
1. I thought I had prepared well, however I didn't test the sling prior. It turned out the sling rings on my 10/22 target model were a bit too small and had to be jerry rigged. This turned out to be a major impediment. You will want to use the wider sling like they sell at the Appleseed store. I'll be updating my sling rings.
2. I recommend a shooting shirt with padding on the elbows. There is a lot of quick transition shooting drills going from standing to prone. This scuffed up my elbows by the end of the day.

I will be doing another Appleseed event soon, and even with the sling issue I managed to learn and improve a lot. I think you'll have fun.
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Old March 5, 2018, 10:24 PM   #17
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I enjoyed the Appleseed my Son and I attended a few years ago. Got the Rifleman patch on day two, and my Son came real close to making it. I might try another one just to brush up on the skills.
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Old May 6, 2018, 07:48 AM   #18
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Appleseed: After Action Report

So I went to my Appleseed event. Things did not go as planned. Here's the good and the bad.

The Good: This history lesson was good. I knew most of it in broad strokes, but there was some fine detail that I was unaware of, and I enjoyed hearing about it.

I shot decent groups and avoided perforating anyone else. That was good.

The company was good. Very nice bunch to deal with.

The Bad: Let me start by saying that the bad things that happened were not the fault of the Appleseed people. They were a combination of 90* weather, my poor preparation &/or poor physical condition on my part. (I'm almost 50 and overweight.) I'm going to lay out The Bad in more detail than The Good, not to beat up on the Appleseed people, but in the hopes that someone reading this later will prepare better than I did.

I thought I had my equipment together, but that wasn't quite the case. I thought, perhaps mistakenly, that I remembered reading in one of the preparation documents that "you can't earn the rifleman badge without a sling." I thought that was fine, and that I could get by without a sling. I really wasn't all that interested in a badge to begin with. Unfortunately, whatever it was that I read should have said was, "a sling is mandatory because every last shooting exercise will involve the sling."

I took a blanket to lay on, because I'm cheap and didn't want to shell out the $ for a shooting mat. I don't have anywhere else to use a shooting mat, so it would have been a one-use expenditure until I either join a gun club, or the next Appleseed. In any event, I wound up borrowing a mat. That was good, as we were set up in a gravel pit, and laying on the blanket was not going to work well. What was bad was that the mat had a dark-colored band across it, which got extremely hot by mid-day. I knew it was going to be hot, so I'd worn a T-shirt. That led to having my elbows scalded every time we got in the prone position. And we got in the prone position a lot. My elbows were burned and sore for several days.

In fact, we started shooting about 10. By 2, I was considering bailing out. I mentioned to an instructor that I'd done just about all of the lying on the ground that I really wanted to do. He encouraged me to stay, and said that we'd be moving to sitting or standing shooting positions. Unfortunately, that meant transitioning from prone to sitting, and then shooting. He didn't tell me that part. By that point, I'd already had my fill of laying on the ground and scalding my elbows.

I shot one or two more exercises, but by 3, I'd laid in the gravel pit all I wanted to for a 90* day. I bailed and did not return for Day 2.
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Old May 6, 2018, 09:08 AM   #19
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Quote:
In fact, we started shooting about 10. By 2, I was considering bailing out. I mentioned to an instructor that I'd done just about all of the lying on the ground that I really wanted to do. He encouraged me to stay, and said that we'd be moving to sitting or standing shooting positions. Unfortunately, that meant transitioning from prone to sitting, and then shooting. He didn't tell me that part. By that point, I'd already had my fill of laying on the ground and scalding my elbows.

I shot one or two more exercises, but by 3, I'd laid in the gravel pit all I wanted to for a 90* day. I bailed and did not return for Day 2.
I feel your pain Spats, definitely a physical challenge for us older and somewhat out of shape guys for having to move from position to position. Maybe they should adapt the concept like the various competition shooting disciplines do and make prone the last shooting position so us old farts don't have to get up on the clock.

Quote:
/or poor physical condition on my part. (I'm almost 50 and overweight.)
try it at 65 and having multiple abdominal and chest surgeries. All I'll add to that is HOLY CRAP moving is tuff
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Old May 6, 2018, 11:04 PM   #20
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Spats - thanks for the detailed info about your experience. All of "us" who have never attended an AS would like to think that we could do such a thing like it was a walk in the park... well, we need to think again. But, if it wasn't a challenge, would we find it so interesting?

I have a feeling that:

1) if you did just a few exercises to meet the physical challenge, your next time would be easier
2) you would have more enjoyment at the event
3) it would seem half as hard
4) "if you knew then, what you know now" ... well, now you've got that covered

It reminds me of the first time I launched and retrieved my boat: you can read all you want, take advice, and watch videos for hours... but there is no substitute for first - hand experience.

Do you think you might do another AS one day?
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Old May 7, 2018, 10:58 AM   #21
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Sorry to hear of your experience, Spats. Yes, shooting prone can be difficult if it's an extended session in the hot sun, you're not used to shooting prone and/or don't have the right gear. Seems like you were able to check all three boxes . When I went, we shot under cover and I stacked towels under my support elbow for the extra padding.

On the sling: A major part of the Appleseed course is instruction on the proper use of a sling. If they didn't emphasize that in their own preparation documents, they certainly should have. Even if you're not interested in earning their merit badge, you won't be getting nearly as much from the event as you could without a sling.

I hope you gear up and give it another try at some point.
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Old May 7, 2018, 11:02 AM   #22
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Thanks, one and all. I haven't decided for sure whether I'll do another, but I won't rule it out. I've already been working on my diet and losing some weight, so if I have some success with that and get the proper gear, I'll be much better off if I should try again.
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Old May 7, 2018, 03:13 PM   #23
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Quote:
(I'm almost 50 and overweight.)
I'm a little older and about 40 pounds heavier than unrealistic docs want me to be. I haven't done Appleseed, but intermittently practice three position rifle shooting.

Aside from general fitness, there is the issue that a fellow like me who spends the bulk of his day sitting and talking on the telephone or hunched over paper at his desk experiences a rather small spectrum of movement. It leaves me relatively disabled in trivial ways. I make that old man sound when I sit now.

I sort of hate prone. By the time I get down on the ground and slung into position, I'm breathing so hard that it isn't as effective as may have been 30 years ago. Sitting, my natural position, works better and takes less practice.

I mostly have practiced standing. My reasoning was that this is my worst position, and I can practice it anywhere. Unfortunately, it has left me a but stiff to make prone very practical.

The point of the above -- you aren't the only one in this boat.

Last edited by zukiphile; May 7, 2018 at 03:23 PM.
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Old May 7, 2018, 06:17 PM   #24
TheGunGeek
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Join Date: July 15, 2016
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I finished my 2nd Appleseed last month. I'm scoring consistently in the Sharpshooter range, and I missed the Rifleman score by 1 shot twice during the qualifications in the last event. The rifle and personal prep FAQ's are here:
https://appleseedinfo.org/how-to-prepare/

They have printable checklists which make it easy to follow and pack. For both ranges I attended, we were on covered concrete, not gravel. I wouldn't want to be on gravel all day even with the high end shooting mat.

The one other recommendation I will add is one should definitely have elbow and knee pads, as this make a huge difference. On my first event I didn't, and my support elbow was bloody at the end. I only did one day that time. I also wasn't as fit as thought, and increased my workout routine before attending the second one. The second event was great, I wasn't as sore, was better prepared, and I attended both days.

There were quite a few kids at both of the events I attended, and I'd like to get my niece & nephew into this once they're a bit older. I think this is an excellent event every kid should attend.

Don't give up Spats, get the gear together and practice, and I'm sure you'll like the next one. I would choose a different location though, and look on-line to check the facilities of the range first.
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Old May 8, 2018, 11:56 AM   #25
TheGunGeek
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Join Date: July 15, 2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
Aside from general fitness, there is the issue that a fellow like me who spends the bulk of his day sitting and talking on the telephone or hunched over paper at his desk experiences a rather small spectrum of movement. It leaves me relatively disabled in trivial ways. I make that old man sound when I sit now.
I hear you. I went from a job where I had an office, but also spent a lot of time running around and climbing stairs, to a straight desk job. I compensated by purchasing exercise equipment for the house, and I work out 6 days a week after work while catching up on the news. If I had room for a bike or treadmill in the office, it would be there also. If I don't work out I don't feel right.
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