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Old December 4, 2018, 04:05 PM   #1
jgrns
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Range insurance

I'm trying to get some up to date info as to the amount of insurance outdoor ranges typically carry.
Is there an "Industry standard" as to the amount?
Does anyone have info at to what their ranges carry?
We are being told that 4 Mil. is now the "standard" thought no one can tell us where that info comes from. We now carry 2 Mil.
Would greatly appreciate any input.
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Old December 4, 2018, 04:09 PM   #2
Aguila Blanca
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Check with the NRA and the NSSF?
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Old December 4, 2018, 04:22 PM   #3
jgrns
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I have. I want to know what other ranges pay at this time.
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Old December 4, 2018, 04:24 PM   #4
Aguila Blanca
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What they pay, or what limits of coverage they carry?

Or both?
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Old December 4, 2018, 04:49 PM   #5
jgrns
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What is paid by outdoor ranges for insurance.
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Old December 4, 2018, 04:50 PM   #6
spacemanspiff
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Sounds like the subject at hand is Limits of Liability. Most General Liability insurance will have an "Occurrence" limit of $1,000,000., with a General Aggregate limit of $2,000,000. Some carriers will allow for the $2,000,000 occurrence and a $4,000,000. aggregate.

Occurrence = one single claim
Aggregate = sum of all claims in a given policy period

A business could opt to purchase an Umbrella policy that goes over the General Liability, and that would kick in once the underlying limits are exhausted.

How much the policy costs will vary by company, since most carriers designate shooting ranges as 'prohibited' in their guidelines.

Liability insurance on a shooting range likely would exclude causes of loss such as the ranges customers shooting other people. It typically covers things like slip/fall, general safety hazards.

That long list of safety rules most people ignore because they "know all about gun safety" is meant to keep premiums down.
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Old December 4, 2018, 04:50 PM   #7
jgrns
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Amend that...
I trying to find out the coverage limits that are typically ..
1mil, 2mil, 3mil, 4mil???

I'm being told that there is an "industry Standard" now that requires a $4 mill policy. Is there any truth to that or does that sound like someone's opinion?

We currently carry $2 mil and are being "pressed" (for lack of a better word) into increasing out limits to $4 mil due to the unsubstantiated claim that we must increase ours.
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Old December 4, 2018, 06:42 PM   #8
spacemanspiff
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A GL policy has the following coverages that will display limits:
(1) General Aggregate
(2) Products/Completed Operations Aggregate
(3) Personal & Advertising Injury
(4) Each Occurrence
(5) Damage to rented premises
(6) Medical Expenses

The amount of the limits varies:
(1) Either will match the Occurrence limit, or be double the occurrence.
(2) Either will match the General Aggregate limit, or be 'included' or 'excluded', depending on the classification codes that are on the policy
(3) Matches the occurrence limit, unless it is 'excluded'
(4) Will vary, lowest is typically $300,000.; could be $500,000., $1,000,000., and in some cases, $2,000,000.
(5) Typically will be $100,000., unless excluded
(6) Typically will be $5,000., sometimes increased to $10,000., unless excluded.

I am unaware of an industry standard requiring a $4,000,000 limit, but my best guess is that refers to a General Aggregate limit. I would not be surprised if that is the 'industry standard'.

Who is pressing you? The insurance retail agent/broker? Or is the insurance company requiring that?

Retail agents/brokers usually do whatever they can to keep your policy premiums as low as possible, as they wish to retain their customers. Usually a customer remains loyal to their agent, though sometimes the agents do not act in the best interests of their customers.

If you are in doubt, you could contact your states Division of Insurance. These DOI's in each state are committed to protecting the consumers from shady practices of the retailers/carriers, as well as protecting the carriers from fraud.
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Old December 5, 2018, 11:40 AM   #9
cjwils
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I had not thought about range insurance before, but this discussion raises some questions for me.

Does range insurance typically cover a customer who is injured at the range, as long as the customer did not blatantly misbehave?

Does the insurance cover situations such as a gun stolen from a customer at the range?

Do insurance companies dictate rules, such as no quick draw practice, etc? Along this line, I was told by range managers at two different ranges that when using a handgun with a laser sight, I was required to hold the gun in front of my eyes and pretend to look through the iron sights, because a laser is not a valid "sighting device." Was that rule likely dictated by an insurance company?
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Old December 5, 2018, 02:03 PM   #10
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I think the safest answer to your questions cjwils is, that it depends. Did the range go all out and purchase the best coverage possible, with the least amount of exclusions, or did they get the bare minimum coverage required?

I stumbled across this in a google search for 'insurance coverage for shooting ranges':
https://www.phly.com/products/shootingrange.aspx

Take a look at the Range Application in the supplemental column. There is one question in particular that I noticed which would answer the question about a customer being injured. "Are shooters required to sign liability waivers?"
Most members or customers may already be required to sign such a waiver, which in effect removes that persons ability to sue for damages. That's not an unusual thing. I have seen concert venues require those in attendance to sign waivers, and virtually no one actually reads them before signing.

As for theft, one might assume a ranges policy would cover it if they have the 'Crime' Coverage on their policy. But that is typically covering the business against crime/theft from either their own employees, or Joe Methhead. Its possible they might buy the coverage that applies to their customers or members.

There are a lot of things any business will say they require customers to do, or not do, and will say its their insurance companys rules. Sometimes its true, sometimes it isn't. Any business that wishes to remain profitable will do whatever it takes to reduce the risk of having insurance claims filed against their policy. Have you ever been to a bar, and seen someone do something extremely stupid like climb on a table and start dancing? Bar staff will normally tell that person to 'get down! I said get down! you cant do that! Because of our insurance!" Theres no exclusion in their policy that says "we will not provide coverage to anyone dancing on a table". But the business wishes to reduce the risk of someone hurting themselves so they will say the policy against dancing on tables is due to their insurance coverage.

One bar I worked at, had a walk through done by the insurance retail agent, not a representative of the actual insurance company, and not someone authorized to inspect the bar or its procedures, but as soon as they retailer observed the bouncers all carried handcuffs, they immediately told the bar owner 'your policy will get cancelled if your staff uses handcuffs'. Total Bee Ess! But I imagine a range would get similarly told 'Your policy could get cancelled if your members are allowed to practice quick draws!"
And there might be good reason for that. Maybe the company does insist that dangerous behavior be prohibited? Maybe they don't.

Like I said, it all depends!
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Old December 5, 2018, 03:10 PM   #11
luger fan
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MY INSURANCE is a VEST!!!!!!! I shoot 3 times a week at a range in Carmel Indiana. There have been 8-10 AD's at the range where the rounds went BEHIND the shooters into the wall. ONE AD in the showroom and one suicide on the firing line. Hense the vest.
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Old December 6, 2018, 09:52 PM   #12
jugornot
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I've joined a new range that has a good policy. No loaded weapons allowed anywhere but on the firing line. No muzzles allowed to point in any direction but downrange. Rifles in particular must be in cases when brought too the line and in cases when moved from the line. Most ranges are steel only and always hot (no one allowed downrange.) Paper targets are allowed on only one rifle and one pistol range. To go downrange all guns must have a chamber flag and everyone behind a a red line. Nothing is foolproof but rules are strictly enforced. Pistol is not my thing but drawing from a holster is allowed, but hip holsters only. At my old range (much looser restrictions) I heard the owner talk that he had paid a million already and wasn't going to again. I assumed his insurance had. I like the safety of the new range.
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