|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Search | Today's Posts | Mark Forums Read |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
April 10, 2013, 02:17 PM | #176 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
|
lcpiper, no, you can't ship a firearm to a non-FFL unless you are shipping it to yourself.
However, if you are buying from a seller from your own state of residence; and if your state has no laws restricting such transactions; and if you meet face to face - then federal law does not require a check or paperwork. |
April 10, 2013, 02:28 PM | #177 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 15, 2011
Posts: 1,405
|
But ...
Quote:
Calling a private sale, regardless of where and how two private individuals meet, an Internet sale is wrong. It misrepresents the nature of the transaction. By labeling this an Internet sale they misrepresent the nature of the transaction so it doesn't look like what it is. It's a requirement for background checks on private sales. It doesn't change the fact that this is not something the Federal Government should be allowed to do. It is still a State issue. If you are still writing your Senators and Reps, this is a point you can make.
__________________
Colt M1911, AR-15 | S&W Model 19, Model 27| SIG P238 | Berreta 85B Cheetah | Ruger Blackhawk .357MAG, Bearcat "Shopkeeper" .22LR| Remington Marine Magnum SP 12GA., Model 700 SPS .223 |
|
April 10, 2013, 02:35 PM | #178 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 20, 2007
Location: Richardson, TX
Posts: 7,523
|
Quote:
IIRC the person shipping the firearm is required to provide written notice to the shipping company, delivery driver, captain of the ship, or pilot of the aircraft that the shipment contains a firearm. Some shipping companies expressly prohibit such shipments, but IIRC they're not illegal under federal law. (I cannot look up the statutes at the moment, so forgive me if my memory does not serve me correctly.)
__________________
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak |
|
April 10, 2013, 02:52 PM | #179 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 24, 2005
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,902
|
Quote:
universal background checks for gun sales ... internet sales ... Offhand, I can't think of a popular gun grabber catch-phrase that is NOT a calculated deceit. |
|
April 10, 2013, 02:55 PM | #180 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 15, 2011
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 317
|
Anyone have anything more current that this:
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-1...113s649pcs.pdf ? |
April 10, 2013, 02:56 PM | #181 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Location: Upper midwest
Posts: 5,631
|
Carguychris, you're correct. As far as Federal law goes, it's fine to ship a firearm to another resident of your state:
From the FAQ on the ATF website: Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?
__________________
Never let anything mechanical know you're in a hurry. |
April 10, 2013, 03:33 PM | #182 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
|
I stand corrected.
However, I do not think UPS or FedEx will ship it for you, even if Federal law does not prohibit intrastate shipment, unless you ship to yourself or an FFL; and you can't ship via USPS unless you are an FFL. |
April 10, 2013, 04:20 PM | #183 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: October 20, 2007
Location: Richardson, TX
Posts: 7,523
|
Quote:
From the Domestic Mail Manual or DMM (emphasis mine): Quote:
Regarding the length... the definitions in the DMM are worded in such a way as to restrict mailability of rifles and shotguns with any "...alteration [or] modification... if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches." AFAIK this provision has been interpreted to prohibit the mailing of a disassembled rifle or shotgun if the disassembled configuration has a length less than 26", even if this length results from using a factory takedown feature. More here: http://pe.usps.gov/text/dmm300/601.htm#12_0 *Footnote: The mailability of handguns to and from C&R licensees is a complex topic that is somewhat outside of the scope of this post. The short version is that it's not allowed under most circumstances.
__________________
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak Last edited by carguychris; April 10, 2013 at 04:22 PM. Reason: info added... |
||
April 10, 2013, 04:40 PM | #184 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 15, 2011
Posts: 1,405
|
Quote:
Can you show me something different? Like, can my Dad who lives in Texas give me one of his guns next Christmas, that I can actually take home to Arizona with me, without making me a felon if I don't spend a hundred bucks or so in shipping and FFL fees to have it "laundered" clean? Is that something they are going to give us?
__________________
Colt M1911, AR-15 | S&W Model 19, Model 27| SIG P238 | Berreta 85B Cheetah | Ruger Blackhawk .357MAG, Bearcat "Shopkeeper" .22LR| Remington Marine Magnum SP 12GA., Model 700 SPS .223 |
|
April 10, 2013, 04:43 PM | #185 | |
Member
Join Date: November 2, 2009
Location: Northwest Arkansas
Posts: 57
|
Quote:
|
|
April 10, 2013, 04:48 PM | #186 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 8, 2012
Posts: 2,556
|
This is the Summary from Toomey himself
Here's one we want- - Provides a legal process for a veteran to contest his/her placement in NICS when there is no basis for barring the right to own a firearm. and another - - Fixes interstate travel laws for sportsmen who transport their firearms across state lines in a responsible manner. The term "transport" includes staying in temporary lodging overnight, stopping for food, buying fuel, vehicle maintenance, and medical treatment. and another - - Protects sellers from lawsuits if the weapon cleared through the expanded background checks and is subsequently used in a crime. This is the same treatment gun dealers receive now. and another - - Authorizes use of a state concealed carry permit instead of a background check when purchasing a firearm from a dealer. and one more - - Permits interstate handgun sales from dealers. So no, as a private interstate instead of intra-state you'll probably have to go through NICS (There is a family exemption written into this one that MAY contradict this IF it passes so it's a ways off from happening IF it's gonna) But if you go to a gun shop while visiting Dear Old Dad, and see a handgun you like, and have a state issued concealed carry permit, you can walk out with it that day, drive up through California/NewYork, stop off at a motel when it gets late, have dinner, get your ingrown toenail excised, and fill up the tank all before leaving NY/CA and not have to worry about their laws. (much) |
April 10, 2013, 04:49 PM | #187 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 15, 2011
Posts: 1,405
|
To continue, since we have determined that it is possible for a private seller to advertise a firearm, and sell it, to include shipping it to the private buyer by shipping service. We can conclude that this would be an example of an Internet Sale that currently can be conducted without a background check.
Do I have anything wrong on this part? If not then it is less deceitful but I still don't think it's the Federal Government's permit to regulate private intrastate commerce. I still stand that this is for the States to decide and not the Fed.
__________________
Colt M1911, AR-15 | S&W Model 19, Model 27| SIG P238 | Berreta 85B Cheetah | Ruger Blackhawk .357MAG, Bearcat "Shopkeeper" .22LR| Remington Marine Magnum SP 12GA., Model 700 SPS .223 |
April 10, 2013, 04:55 PM | #188 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 8, 2012
Posts: 2,556
|
Internet sale isn't well defined. It COULD be an internet sale. As far as Federal regulation, they use the same argument they used in Heart of Atlanta Motel v. US. As the shipping company you're using is likely to be multi-state it would affect interstate trade, using fuel supplies that could even be international trade.
|
April 10, 2013, 04:55 PM | #189 | |
Staff
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 8,819
|
Quote:
As it currently stands, what you have described is two things: (1) an advertisement; and (2) a private party sale (assuming that the seller is not an FFL). Accordingly, the sale may be conducted without a NICS check, if both parties reside in the same state. If they reside in different states, an FFL is required. We do not know if that will hold true under the proposal, because we do not know how "Internet Sale" will be defined. Until we have that bit of information, we're guessing.
__________________
I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. If you need some honest-to-goodness legal advice, go buy some. |
|
April 10, 2013, 04:55 PM | #190 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 4, 2013
Posts: 135
|
Re: S.649: Reid's Base Gun Control Bill
Quote:
|
|
April 10, 2013, 04:59 PM | #191 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 8, 2012
Posts: 2,556
|
Well IF this bill passes, and IF this provision stays in the bill and IF it isn't amended, and IF the actual text says what Toomey says it said, then MAYBE. There MAY be a restriction that you must be a resident with a permit from that state to bypass NICS.
And remember they're adding handguns, you can PROBABLY already buy a long gun. Different states have different rules that interact differently with even more states with different rules. For a specific answer, you'd have to read the law yourself, or hire someone who does it for a living. |
April 10, 2013, 05:26 PM | #192 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 15, 2011
Posts: 1,405
|
This is what I get out of the Summary;
- Encourage states to provide all their available records to NICS by restricting federal funds to states who do not comply. (All I got to say is we never should have given a hammer to the Fed to use on States to begin with, they take our tax money to use against our own State and thus us) - Clarifies that submissions of mental health records into the NICS system are not prohibited by federal privacy laws (HIPAA). (It doesn't seem to require submissions). - Provides a legal process for a veteran to contest his/her placement in NICS when there is no basis for barring the right to own a firearm. (If I am not mistaken every combat vet must go through screening for PTSD and usually some form of counseling, has this been a reason for them being flagged in NICS?) TITLE TWO: REQUIRING BACKGROUND CHECKS FOR FIREARM SALES Summary of Title II: This section of the bill requires background checks for sales at gun shows and online while securing certain aspects of 2nd Amendment rights for law abiding citizens. - Closes the gun show and other loopholes while exempting temporary transfers and transfers between family members. (Imposes background checks on Private firearms Sales both interstate and intrastate) - Fixes interstate travel laws for sportsmen who transport their firearms across state lines in a responsible manner. The term "transport" includes staying in temporary lodging overnight, stopping for food, buying fuel, vehicle maintenance, and medical treatment. (The Federal Government had no laws against this before, this was only effected by State Law, Fed again deciding for the States) - Protects sellers from lawsuits if the weapon cleared through the expanded background checks and is subsequently used in a crime. This is the same treatment gun dealers receive now. (So it's now going to be OK for families of victims of gun violence to go after the seller even if the sale was legal unless you do the BG Check?) - Allows dealers to complete transactions at gun shows that take place in a state for which they are not a resident. (So dealers get to sell out of State, They do it already via the Internet. And how is this supposed to stop Gun Violence?) - Requires the FBI to give priority to finalizing background checks at gun shows over checks at store front dealerships. (I don't see anything great here, again how is this supposed to stop Gun Violence?) - Authorizes use of a state concealed carry permit instead of a background check when purchasing a firearm from a dealer. (Already that way in Arizona and many other states, again, State Business) - Permits interstate handgun sales from dealers. (how is this supposed to stop Gun Violence?) - Allows active military to buy firearms in their home states. (Active Military can already buy firearms from their home state, and because many P/X Exchanges sell firearms on Federal land, they can still buy from them too) - Family transfers and some private sales (friends, neighbors, other individuals) are exempt from background checks (Giving me nothing, just saying your not taking this as well) OK, enough, this entire bill does nothing except tell us how it's not going to be as bad as we thought. They are taking with one hand while they say "See, that wasn't so bad". Everything they are giving are things that we already have if our States haven't said otherwise and as I have said earlier, it's still all State Business.
__________________
Colt M1911, AR-15 | S&W Model 19, Model 27| SIG P238 | Berreta 85B Cheetah | Ruger Blackhawk .357MAG, Bearcat "Shopkeeper" .22LR| Remington Marine Magnum SP 12GA., Model 700 SPS .223 |
April 10, 2013, 05:32 PM | #193 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 28, 2013
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 182
|
We are not going to see the complete bill in time to read it before they can try to slam a vote through, are we? Another we will know what is in it after it passes sort of deal. I called both my senators today, one is a lost cause and the other is up for election in 2014. My impression is he will vote for it if it is likely to pass, but his office would not admit to that.
|
April 10, 2013, 05:33 PM | #194 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 11, 2013
Location: Near Heart of Texas
Posts: 870
|
Has there ever been any discussion how all this extensive back ground checking & it's associated bureaucracy will be funded? I'm referring to taxation of some form on buyers & sellers of firearms & ammunition?
|
April 10, 2013, 05:41 PM | #195 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 24, 2005
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,902
|
Quote:
I am not encouraged about the potential definition of "internet sale" or "online sale" by the following statement in Manchin's Fact Sheet about the proposal: Quote:
|
||
April 10, 2013, 05:41 PM | #196 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 15, 2011
Posts: 1,405
|
Unfortunately Senator Toomey was mum on how this bill is going to protect us from unreasonable taxation in regards to firearms, ammunition, and accessories.
__________________
Colt M1911, AR-15 | S&W Model 19, Model 27| SIG P238 | Berreta 85B Cheetah | Ruger Blackhawk .357MAG, Bearcat "Shopkeeper" .22LR| Remington Marine Magnum SP 12GA., Model 700 SPS .223 |
April 10, 2013, 05:42 PM | #197 | |||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: August 8, 2012
Posts: 2,556
|
You're not quite right lcpiper
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||||||||||
April 10, 2013, 05:48 PM | #198 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 29, 2010
Location: The ATL (OTP)
Posts: 3,944
|
Quote:
__________________
A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman |
|
April 10, 2013, 05:59 PM | #199 |
Member
Join Date: April 11, 2007
Posts: 45
|
Phase 2 of background checks
I started a new thread so everyone would see this. The ATF is ready to update their 50 year old Firearms Tracing System:
http://news.yahoo.com/senate-deal-ba...sugc_container Though Sens, Joe Manchin (R) of W. Va and Pat Toomey (R) of Penn. have reached a deal on background checks to take form as an amendment to the Senate gun control bill, a key piece of the White House’s gun control plan is at risk of failure *– specifically, the process by which law enforcement agencies trace the original source of a gun sale during criminal investigations. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) is using 1960s era technology to manage a 21st century problem. As gun traces increase under stepped up enforcement, the system must be updated in order to keep up. You can take it as you will, I see this as the next step to prepare for the future national registry!
__________________
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" Edmund Burke Browning High Power,XD 45, Protec 25,Saiga 308 Stag AR 15, Ruger mk II 7mm Mag, CCW |
April 10, 2013, 06:03 PM | #200 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 15, 2011
Posts: 1,405
|
I suppose this is where some folks differ from others.
Some see the Federal Government covering us all in a nice warm blanket of protection from individual States who would do us wrong. Even when the recent wrongs that have been done haven't been given time to stand the light of day from the Courts. Others see this as just more intrusion into State Rights by the Federal Government which are completely unnecessary as the States are perfectly capable of sorting themselves out. The Constitution allows for the kind of differences we have between States for expressly these reasons. It allows 50 States to come up with separate and diverse solutions and over time the smart plays can be identified and separated from the bad ones. When the Feds get involved in State business they are making decisions for all of us all at once and we lose all sense of alternative. We no longer get our box of chocolates, we just get M&Ms and you better hope you like M&Ms
__________________
Colt M1911, AR-15 | S&W Model 19, Model 27| SIG P238 | Berreta 85B Cheetah | Ruger Blackhawk .357MAG, Bearcat "Shopkeeper" .22LR| Remington Marine Magnum SP 12GA., Model 700 SPS .223 |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|