Use of gas checks on cast handgun bullets

[Real Gun]

I am posting as a sanity check. I gather from my cursory research that gas checks are only needed at velocities (and levels of heat) which cause lead alloys to deform. In handguns, that would include the serious loads for the magnums and .45 Colt +p or "Ruger only" range. In semi-autos, the 10mm is the prime candidate other than the Hollywood guns.

So, in my attempt to equip myself to make my own bullets, and having a .357 Magnum (or 2), a .45 Colt Redhawk, and a S&W 629 5" .44 Magnum, I believe I need to order gas checks in 35, 44, and 45 calibers. I have picked Hornady, because none of my molds provide crimp grooves for gas checks, and theirs are designed to crimp into the body of the bullet during sizing.

If use of gas checks is marginal or the subject of some difference of opinion, let's say I would want to use them and skip the debate. If the gas checks SHOULD NOT be used on some technical grounds, or there is some case why they are a waste, I would be interested in comments. Make of it what you will, but I'm just being clear about what I hope to gain as the OP.

[dahermit]

I have picked Hornady, because none of my molds provide crimp grooves for gas checks, and theirs are designed to crimp into the body of the bullet during sizing.

Sorry, you are wrong (unless they have changed the dimentions of the checks). The Hornady gas checks are intended to be used on bullets that have a base that is purposely made for fitting of gas checks. Go to one of the on-line gun-stuff stores and look at the pictures of the bullets they label as for gas checks...you will see a rebated base. The bullets that do not have that rebated base (plain base), are not intended for gas checks.
I suggest that you not buy a mold intended for gas checks at this time. Buy plain base first and get some experience with shooting cast, casting, hand loading cast. A well-known cast lead bullet shooter, Elmer Keith, was of the opinion that gas checks were not needed for handgun loads and proceeded to shoot loads that would scare the heck out of a normal person, without ill effects. I have used gas checks for hot hunting loads but I have fired a lot of hot loads that worked just fine without them.
Down sides of gas checks is that the price of them has sky-rocketed over the years with the price of copper, and applying them to be sized is annoyingly slow.

[Real Gun]

Hornady shows illustrations with their gas checks, that indicate use without a provided groove in the bullet.

Hornady gas checks

[mehavey]

Those are very specifically-designed crimp on versions (which I've never known about/much less
known I've actually used). Interesting concept -- except when used on a real gas-check bullet
casting. (Might explain a couple of things.....)

[dahermit]

Hornady shows illustrations with their gas checks, that indicate use without a provided groove in the bullet.

I think you are misinterpreting what they illustrate. Instead of a plain-based bullet receiving a gas check, could it be they are just showing a gas check being sized onto just the gas check shank? Also, note that bullet moulds designed for gas checks have a reduced shank, not a "groove". However, there does seem to be a process for applying gas checks to bullets not designed for them, but it takes a "special" procedure.
I found this "testimonial" that refers to that procedure:

Works well for preventing leading in my 444 Marlin lead bullets. Installs easy using a Lyman gas check seater on a Lyman 450 lubrisizer. I also found a way to install a gas check on any lead bullet after reading a review on this website on the Hornady camlock bullet puller. Tells how a gal used the said tool to put a gas check groove & gas check on all her lead bullets. Tried the method - works very nice. Saved me a bunch of money from buying FMJ bullets and I can fire my 444 marlin 200 gr bullets using Lyman orange lube + gas check to 1,800 fps w/o leading the barrel of my lever action rifle.

It is notable that the inside diameter of a gas check is much smaller than the base of a plain base bullet. Therefore, either the standard gas check (including Hornady crimp-on), must be "stretched" larger, or the base of the plain base bullet must be reduced.
So, buying crimp-on Hornady gas checks and expecting to just crimp them on a plain base bullet, is going to leave you disappointed.
The reason why Hornady went to crimp on gas checks years ago, was most likely an adapatation to the complaints that Lyman gas checks (sans any crimp feature), were known to come off the bullets in flight.

[mehavey]

I just tried my (#7140) Hornady 45cal gas checks on some unsized/plain-based 45 (pistola) bullets I cast some time ago.

Not a prayer..... so I don't really understand what they are showing in the illustration.

[Mike / Tx]

Real Gun,

In my limited experience with using GC's, I can say the following,

The bullets Hornady builds their checks to fit, DO indeed have to have a rebated base, otherwise a caliber specific check will not fit period. Even when pouring said bullets some molds, or alloys will vary enough in the base diameter that they are difficult to install.

You CAN find GC's for sale that are built for plain based bullets. That said they are usually made from aluminum, and those who are making them use a designed tool for the job. It's called the Checkmaker or Easy Check. These are halfway decent to put on very soft alloy, but much harder than a 10-12 they are a pain.

I only use GC's on a couple of bullets in a couple of calibers. As you mentioned these are for the 41,44, and 454. They are designed for a GC and I run these particular ones pretty hard form these calibers. I ALSO shoot plenty of bullets in the 10-15bhn range that are plain based and I run them into the 1250'ish fps range using slower powders.

Like has been mentioned, I would personally try out loading non GC'ed bullets to start with, and I would bet that 98% of your loads will shoot just fine. The fit and pressures you run them at will contribute to more than the gas check will. I started out pouring the Lee .452-300 RF for my 454 and it sports a GC. I have had plenty of great results with it, but I have also leaded the barrel to the extreme. It is all a balancing act to be honest. Matching the alloy with the pressure of your loads, combine that with a good fit and a good lube, and the rest will take care of it's self.

Hope this helps.

[dahermit]

Not a prayer..... so I don't really understand what they are showing in the illustration.

Perhaps the reason it is shown in that misleading way is because the text and illustrations are the creation of some bimbo who just graduated from college with a degree in visual media, has no idea what a gas check is or what it does, or anything else about bullets? It is not likely that they would take some old coot who is knowledgeable and experienced, and have him sit down to create the sales documents...they have newly hatched media majors for that. And besides, his butt is not as cute.

[dahermit]

I gather from my cursory research that gas checks are only needed at velocities (and levels of heat) which cause lead alloys to deform.

Not entirely. In Cast Lead Bullet Association's (CBA) matches for modern rifles, the data generated by CBA shows that the top competitors are only pushing their rifle loads to about 1100fps....a velocity at which conventional wisdom has always considered to be well within the working level of plain-based bullets. In that instance, they are not using them to avoid leading caused by high velocity (need), but for accuracy.

[dahermit]

Re: Using gas checks on bullets without a gas-check heel.
It seems that there are some shooters who have taken plain based cast bullets and used a Hornady collet bullet puller to squeeze down the base of the bullet to a size that would allow a gas check to fit. This practice begs the questions: Why not just buy a bullet mold designed for use with gas checks. And, is can do something a justification for the extra effort?

[PawPaw]

Originally Posted by dahermit

Not entirely. In Cast Lead Bullet Association's (CBA) matches for modern rifles, the data generated by CBA shows that the top competitors are only pushing their rifle loads to about 1100fps....a velocity at which conventional wisdom has always considered to be well within the working level of plain-based bullets. In that instance, they are not using them to avoid leading caused by high velocity (need), but for accuracy.

That's true. Those guys compete at levels way beyond my paltry attempts, and they show what is possible with a cast bullet. Those guys have a big bag of techniques to squeeze the best accuracy out of their bullets, and applying a gas check might give you a more uniform bullet base than is possible with a non-checked bullet.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

To the OP. You can find good Lee moulds that are made for gas checks. They have them for all popular calibers.

It's a lot more work and a pain in the butt so you won't make a lot of them if you're like me.

A hard alloy water quenched will do most of what you need without a gas check.

[Rangefinder]

A hard alloy water quenched will do most of what you need without a gas check.

Steve, I don't want to get into a competition of the "yellow flow", but I've noticed a couple of your posts lately where you seem hung up on hardness as the key factor. We're discussing handgun bullets, mind you. You may want to revisit the theory, as hardness is NOT nearly as important as FIT. I fire .40S&W in the 10-11 BHN range upward of 1,100fps and .357 in the same BHN at over 1,400--I don't own a single GC handgun mold, every one of them is plain-base. Hardness is the enemy when the fit isn't absolutely perfect, and steering a newcomer in that direction straight off is a set-up for a bad experience.

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

OP G/C bullets have always worked well for me. And all the calibers you've mentioned would be excellent candidates. Since you have the ability to cast. It appears all you need is the proper mold and a Check Installer for each caliber. There is a fellow over on the Cast Boolit's thread that you could contact for the Check Installers. (if wanting too?) His name or site monicker is Buckshot. He would walk you thru the buying experience as to what he needs to know about your molds {specific cast measurements.} To give those specific measurements you would have a need for a dial caliper. Last time I check on Buckshots price. The tool cost around 25-30.00 dollars.{depending on which of the two models He offers} As they are custom lathe made to match your molds cast perfectly. (excellent workmanship is always seen in any of Buckshot's products) But to accomplish what I've mention here. You need to borrow or buy a check'able cast mold first. If you already have a way to G/check your bullets. Then the only need you have is to buy the proper mold for the job.

S/S

[dahermit]

It appears all you need is the proper mold and a Check Installer for each caliber.

When gas checks are used as-is without annealing to soften, they will resist being applied with finger pressure. They will be difficult to seat flush with the bullet base. In that case, some casters will purchase a "gas check installer", that allows a bullet sizer like the Lyman or RCBS to be used to exert mechanical pressure to seat the gas check flush to the bullet's base. However, annealing the checks will generally allow seating flush with but finger pressure. The bullets with the checks applied, can then be sized in the bullet sizer. Gas check seaters, and the extra step (annealing is done as a batch process), in the bullet preparation process, extra cost of seaters, can be avoided by annealing the gas checks. Note: Because someone has done something a certain way for a long time, does not mean it is the best, most effective or smartest way of doing it.
If you wish to know/learn something relative to cast lead bullets, I suggest accessing the CBA site...the information available there is more extensive and current inasmuch as cast lead bullets is their singular concern.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Rangefinder, I don't remember saying fit wasn't important, or that hardness was more important than fit.

My water quenched bullets work great, so do my air cooled soft hollow points.

[myfriendis410]

I've cast pistol bullets for a number of guns over the years. Some of these with gas checks. My personal experience is that a properly sized bullet, with the right lube, is going to do more than a gas check. I've cast bullets for 9mm, .40, .41 mag, .44 mag, .45 acp and 45/70. The overall accuracy has been using a moderately hard cast bullet, sized correctly to the individual gun and lubed with home made lube. I've never seen best results with most commercial stick lubes. Also like someone said: gas checks are a pain in the butt to install. And expensive.

[res45]

I am posting as a sanity check. I gather from my cursory research that gas checks are only needed at velocities (and levels of heat) which cause lead alloys to deform.

With proper bullet to bore fit and lube aside,when deciding to use a GC or not the first question I ask myself is can the alloys BHN withstand the high velocity and high pressure load combination I plan on shooting it at. If the answer is no then I apply a gas check to the base of the bullet that is designed to accept one.

You can have either high velocity or high pressure present in a given load and with proper bullet fit,lube and BHN a GC is not necessary but lead alloy bullets can only handles things up to a certain point and that's where the GC comes into play.

GC's not only protect the base of the bullet especially if you shooting a much softer alloy for expansion purposes but they help seal the bore agents any velocity induced defect. As velocity increases so does the abrasive induced defects from the rifling and high pressure loads take advantage of these defects,leak around the base of the bullet burn off the lube and is one of the causes of leading.

Basically I use a GC for any load that will exceed 1400 fps. and 35K PSI. Cast loads used in rapid fire secession that I can't touch the barrel after firing. Any handgun that hasn't had a sufficient number of J bullets fired through it to smooth out the bore or has misaligned cylinder throats. And in any rifle with Microgroove rifling,the GC gives the bullet extra grip on the shallow lands and grooves and prevents slippage.

I use Hornady,Gator and Aluminum checks in both handguns and rifle loads,all checks are applied with various Lee push through sizers.

There are some GC's being made for various calibers of plain base bullets.
http://www.sagesoutdoors.com/index.p...controller=cms

[pete2]

Their picture is misleading. The bullet has to be designed for the gas check. I found that I had rather use llino to cast the regular bullets, didn't need gas checks. The only GC mold I have is a Lee and I never came up with an accurate load for it. Once I found how good the bullets made of lino were I didn't bother to test the Lee bullet. Used them in .357 and .44 mag.

[Real Gun]

Just to acknowledge the advice and helpful discussion, , I have ordered gas check molds. I should see the .38, 158g and .44, 240g today. I held off on the one for .45 Colt/Ruger only, because Lee only offers a 300g in GC for that caliber. I'll find another option for that later, perhaps the Lyman RT style, #452490 in 255g.

I don't believe I am yet equipped to install the GC, if I need a special tool.

[Mike / Tx]

Real Gun,

If you have Lee sizing dies that and a good table top is all you will need.

Some of the ones I have issues with, I simply use the top of my bench to seat them on the bottom of the shank and look them over real well before I run them through the sizing die to make sure they are straight.

Once they are square on the bottom of the bullets just run them through your sizer and your done, well other than another tumble lube if that is what your using.

[AlaskaMike]

Real Gun, I'm still not quite sure why you believe you need gas checks in the first place.

Before I started casting my own, I shot thousands of non-gas checked commercial cast bullets in all my handguns with no leading or accuracy problems. This includes 1300+ fps loads in .357 mag, .44 mag and .45 Colt (Ruger Redhawk). The one and only application where I use gas checks is in my rifle loads (.30-06 for many different rifles including M1 Garand, and .375 H&H).

I do know that some handguns perform better with gas checked bullets, but I've not found it to be the case with any of mine. If you simply want to use them then that's perfectly fine, but you'd asked for comments from those who think it may be a waste, and I think it probably is unless you find you have a specific need for them.

Mike

[Real Gun]

Other than Lyman, the reloading books I have (Lee, Hornady, Speer, Lyman Bullet Casting Handbook, Lyman Reloading Handbook 49th) make it appear that use of lead, at least of the purer or softer kind, ends at 1100fps or less. The knowledge that lead bullets can be used at much higher velocities and the reasons why is a subculture that I didn't find in these or any common books.

I was curious what these gas check thingies were that I noticed under bullets on Midway's site. My plan of using cast bullets in substantial loads for .44 Magnum and .45 Colt Redhawk led me to conclude that I should get some of them and learn how to use them.

I was ahead of myself, because I hadn't studied it yet. I believe I was correct though and now have the proper dies for 240g .44 and 255g .45. It has not been a big investment with two-bullet molds and two boxes of gas checks.

I know that I don't need gas checks for everything and have already loaded and tried some purchased bullets at pretty good velocity. I estimate the load I shot yesterday at 1250fps. That was 20.7g PowerPro 300-MP, which I thought had real authority compared to purchased 240g SJSP. I will bump it up a step, but wouldn't mind staying right at 20.7g. That powder required that I guessimate the load, extrapolating from A2400 loads.

These bullets were 240g LSWC by Hunters Supply, bought through Midway, I think. My barrel was in very nice shape after a couple passes with a bore snake and some cleaner gel.

[dahermit]

I use gas checks on my 9MM and .38 Super bullets as a matter of course. The 9MM having a reputation for being cranky with cast lead, I just assumed that using gas checks would avoid problems with leading. Nowhere near a scientific approach, but they work without problems and shoot as clean as jacketed with good accuracy. Being old, I just do not have the interest in experimenting with bullets for the two calibers without checks to see if the checks are not needed. I will just keep using gas checked loads in those two guns. If someone wants to do testing on both or one of those 9MM's to see if checks are needed, go ahead...I would be interested in the results.

[Miata Mike]

Casted up some Lyman 429244 bullets yesterday with a mold I just bought. Today I sized and added some donated gas checks. Never done this before, but I thought it turned out cool. Never shot gas checks before, but really looking forward to it.